Thoughts on heteronormativity and doll 'cross-dressing' / the gender spectrum

I just wanted to say, isn't including rape and pedophilia a norm of porn? It's not just yaoi that does it, it's yuri, hentai, straight, gay, and lesbian porn. There may not be real children in actual porn, but adult women pose as young girls. I think because it's drawn, or animated they can actually portray actual "children". That's not a real reason to hate yaoi, to me. It's a reason to hate porn.

As someone brought up, rape is also prevalent in other types manga and anime. A guy forces themselves on a girl, only for them to "like" it in the end. Shoujou manga are very unrealistic in terms of straight relationships, however, no one says that they are harmful to straight relationships.

Yaoi is not the only one with homosexual relationshps. Yaoi is made specifically for straight women to enjoy, just like the equally unrealistic yuri is made for straight men. Many people don't know that there's actually manga featuring homosexual relationships specifically for gay men called bara.

The "fangirls" everyone seems to hate are those that can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It's blown porn way out of proportion, and now everyone expects it to be "realistic".
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I prefer feminine or androgynous male bodies myself, it's something I've had since childhood. I greatly dislike muscular, or manly bodies, for some reason. I've never thought about the gender spectrum towards this, however. I have thought about having a crossdressing male, after seeing a doll I thought would look beautiful in both female and male clothing but it never panned out. My mother won't allow that sort of thing, so I thought nothing further of it.

I never thought the BJD community could reinforce positve or negative views. I always thought of the dolls being an extension of their owner. So it's more like the doll community reflects the ideas of its members. There are people who are uneducated in any community so I just take it with a grain of salt, try and educate them, and let it go.

 

I dislike 'yaoi' (ie, Gravitation, those little two volume mangas they sell in Borders with the pretty pretty tall boy and the girly shorter one) because of its stereotypical presentations of relationships- with one person always topping/subbing. The preoccupation that most of the fandoms I have been in with m// has also really started to bother me.

I suppose this transitions to dolls a little bit- back when I had SDs and MSDs, they were constantly posed with other male dolls. Comments were made at conventions, etc etc.

Honestly (and I hope I'm making sense) I really just dislike people ... doing things unrealistically? Then again, these are dolls, and are complete fantasy.

 

THIS. THIS THIS THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!

Sorry. I wanted to express my appreciation for this comment.

I know a lot of people in the anime fandom that actually get CONFUSED when people in homosexual relationships "switch roles", so to speak. It appalls me. Seriously. It makes me sick.

I also get appalled when people say "well, 'no' is actually something flirtacious!" and I go "where did you GET this idea in your head?"

and then.. "well I saw this dojinshi (sp?)..."

.... really? i mean really?

but again... I don't see a lot of this in the doll community. But I draw the line at pedophilia, "no" being a flirtacious statement, rape... BDSM is one thing. Rape and torture is a completely different place. A place that I'm not too sure people understand the fine line that lies between them. That's the part that bothers me the most.

 

People are forgetting that rape fantasies existed long before yaoi did. Yaoi did not create them. They are not contained solely in BL nor are they found only in writing done by men. Romance novels anyone? Seriously. You would think that boy's love manga are full of nothing but children being raped while puppies are kicked and peasants are repressed along every other evil in the world ALL AT THE SAME TIME. When really, boy's love manga covers the gamut of genres and styles and can have some very sophisticated writing. It's like saying that all movies have to be bad because someone watched a grindhouse exploitation film and didn't like it.

As for fangirl behaviour at conventions, I think doll owners need to realize that this is often a case of the pot calling the kettle black. There are just as many immature doll owners as there are immature yaoi fangirls as there are immature fangirls who hate yaoi and so on and so forth. The doll hobby is somehow not more enlightened or better behaved.

But moving back on subject since people seem to think this thread is about bashing yaoi....

I see calls for more and more realism is the way dolls look and the way character stories are portrayed by a vocal group of the hobby, when really, for a lot of people, myself being one of them, I am not at all interested in realism. I like my fantasy. These dolls appeal to me because they lend themselves to creating that which I cannot find in the real world. All of my doll's characters lead alternative lifestyles because they are what interest me. They're actually not at all a reflection of my own preferences, well beyond I design characters who I find attractive thus I find all of my dolls attractive in some way, but things I use as part of my world building and story writing. I am not at all ashamed to admit that my core doll family involves a lot of mpreg. It's always been a subject matter that intrigues me, thinking about what a world where either sex could impregnate or get pregnant would be like.

It's a creative hobby that attracts creative people, and the overall aesthetic clearly hooked those much reviled yaoi fangirls all those years ago (Volks wanted to find a way to hook the female fangirl demographic because it was an untapped source of revenue for them), and thanks to them taking on the hobby and building it with their own love of alternative relationships, it seems like the hobby grew as a place where it's seen as the norm and ok to explore different lifestyles and mess around with ideas of gender and gender roles.

 

I think this, in the end, regardless of how you feel about yaoi or porn or whatever you want to call it is the ideal answer to the OP question.

I belive that the use of the word "tranny" is offensive to many transexual individuals. It is considered derogatory slang. Much like racial slurs and sexual slurs & religious slurs...I read it in a Huffington post article about Lance Bass (yes from N*Sync) using it in a TV interview. I do not think this word should be used on the DOA Board.

Did you see the use of this word in the title of a posting?

 

I'm a so-called yaoi fangirl. Not your typical one, no. I am not the stereotype (though I think I used to be, though not as loud). I'm also not blinded to what yaoi is. Yaoi is just fantasy just like all mediums of pornography are. Believing that actual gay couples are like what are portrayed in yaoi is like believing the guy who delivers my pizza wants more than just a monetary tip. Not to mention, just like typical pornography, not all of it is rape and pedophilia. In fact, there is more than enough that isn't.

That aside, I am not one to limit someone's creativity, even if I don't agree with how they're going about it. I guess because I believe that people have to learn in their own way and, sometimes, that's in baby steps and starts off in crazy/annoying/unexpected ways. I know that my progression with the LGBT community came from the most unexpected FTM chatroom on AOL back in the day. And then, in my quest to understand it all, yeah, I probably would've annoyed the crap out of a lot of people simply because I became obsessed and over-romanticized a lot of things. But, I wanted to understand it. I came from a highly religious family who actively believed homosexuality was against god and my mind wanted to know why why why! Add on to that the want to rebel their ideal and I was a hot mess!

I have since calmed way down, yes. But that's because one thing led to another and then another and so on and now I just understand reality vs. fantasy. I guess I have faith that this is how it's like for everyone. Plus, honestly, to me, dolls are just fantasy objects. If I read a backstory that is 100% stereotypical slash/yaoi/shonen-ai, I take it for that, not as a reality they actually believe. Just like I do for heterosexual doll characters who have overly wrought romance novel-esque backgrounds. The fantasy and creation in this hobby is what I love most. I honestly don't hold dolls or owners responsible for making their dolls mirror actual reality. Even if I really do hope they do their research and realize fantasy doesn't equal reality.

And just to note, with my own dolls, they represent characters and my characters are all fantasy. I try to mirror real subjects when I can but when your story is already full of mages, werewolves and vampires, I kinda just go for whatever I want.

 

I just wrote a huge, really, really huge post, answering or questioning many other posts in this thread, only to realize that we have gone from discussing heteronormativity to discussing yaoi-fangirls and their evil deeds. And how unrealistically gay men would be depicted by it.

To me, it smells like heteronormativitiy again xD - women are not allowed to show sexuality (in this case, liking porn), and those that do (in this case yaoi-fangirls) have something demonic/evil/insane/mistaken/etc etc etc, and men are not allowed to be depicted as victims (as in yaoi), and if somebody does so, they are not normal. Heteronormativity par excellence.

And that is why all that I leave here from what I wanted to write is the following:

Maybe it is an artefact - there is no real link between gender/orientation non-conformity and the BJD hobby, but there is a statistical correlation. I think that being "outside the norm" in terms of gender and/or sexual orientation is often accompanied by difficulties during childhood and puberty. These difficulties can break a person - or make the person search for a way to survive. Art, in every way possible, is often a very good and effective way to survive. BJDs can be a canvas for art of many, many kinds.

I would love to read your book. Are you planning to publish it? (Are you interested in philosophy? You might like the writings of Michel Foucault; according to him the discourse of sexuality is used politically as a means of power, and this could be the answer as to why gender and sexuality seems so important). One of my doll-worlds has a different approach to gender too... Yes, that is one of the best parts of this hobby.

 

To say that those of us who dislike yaoi dislike it because women shouldn't like porn or men shouldn't be victims is reading something that isn't there. I have no problem with rape of a man or a woman being used in storytelling as long as it's treated as the serious issue it is and not a type of foreplay. I was a yaoi fan myself for many years, but it became harder and harder to find stories without pedophilia, incest, or the most common "rape as love" I used to be able to just skip past those parts and ignore it, but one time I found a yaoi ova and watching it i was like "finally a healthy relationship with no rape!" When I got near the end however one of the characters did end up raping the other. That was my last straw and I quit watching/reading it all together. Yes there is rape in hentai as well and while that is just as bad, I don't watch/read hentai so it didn't come to mind. While adults can see this as (disturbing) fantasy, younger girls are really learning some bad things from it. I watched a girl's video on youtube once where she was talking about her BJDs and at one point she mentioned that her doll's character had been raping his younger brother since he was 2 years old and then went on to add "yay rape! " I saw one of this girl's DoA photostory threads later and she posted the same things with multiple responses saying how adorable it was and how they must really love each other. Yeah, no thanks on all counts.

 

I actually brought this up to my friend. I was like "i think this thread on DOA just went from 'heteronormativity' to 'i hate yaoi fangirls' XD

I hope to one day. But I've been writing it for the past year, it has about 9 chapters and I'm always rewriting the first 4 XD ... so it may take me a while >.>; But I think my dolls really help me write it. Every time I get a new character in, it helps me develop their chapters better. And that definitely sounds interesting, I will be sure to look him up! I am definitely intrigued by his thesis ^.^

(I think this thread moved towards i hate yaoi because someone brought up the aspect that yaoi has a lot of 'heteronormativity' in it. I didn't mean for it to overtake the thread, I was just expressing my mere distaste for how it just adds to it. I do apologize for that.)

regarding MadamMauMau's latest question... I am not sure what you mean by "outside the norm." I think that's very vague. I think this hobby attracts a lot of artistic and creative people. whether we buy dolls simply for the joy of painting/customizing them, shelling a character we've written about, making clothes for them, or creating new characters for role play or stories, etc etc... they are all an art. I'm not sure what makes a person "outside of the norm," as I have trouble with the word "normal" in the first place. ( I have come int find in my life, that what is normal to me is most definitely NOT normal to other people) but I think the appeal of this hobby is being able to express yourself... VERY freely, actually. There aren't a lot of limits with these dolls. That's MY favorite part about them, and I've always considered myself quite far from "normal." I can use them to express how I feel, (all of the characters in my story actually represent an emotion, though it is not obvious to their character, I did create them all after emotions ) I can use them as a way to get my mind off of things by sewing something for them, making them jewelry, or simply brushing their hair. That's how I feel about it, anyway.


EDIT: just saw Nefla's post. Yea. This is what i meant. I would start talking about Hentai, but I have a lot of strong views on that as well that is completely irrelevant to this thread. so. >.>;

 

I don't think wasting a lot of time angsting over yaoi is in any way addressing the original subject matter of this thread. However, to clarify: implying that everyone that enjoys yaoi is 'one of those fangirls' or that every depiction of yaoi is 'incest, rape and pedophilia' is both ignorant and short-sighted. On the other hand, yaoi is most certainly made by women, for women with no interest whatsoever at depicting healthy or realistic homosexual relationships. Yaoi is not attempting to make a statement, represent itself as a standard or educate the masses. It exists purely for the entertainment value of a relatively narrow audience which generally does not include the average doll collector or gay male.

That said, I personally feel that we spend more time than I'm interested in spending wringing our hands over gender identity on DoA. I embrace my fellow collectors for their differences, but I'm not sure the lengthy discussion belongs on a doll forum.

 

AnchixDPx, I also dislike the term "norm" and used it in inverted commas in my question, for want of a term that did the job better.

And my question concerns the observation that our student film maker made that a distinguishing characteristic of our BJD group was that many considered themselves to be "outsiders" (a word he used and qualified by saying that many people said that they liked unconventional things, were LGBT, were goth/emo etc etc). And, I knew what he meant. My group of doll friends is more diverse in terms of many attributes, including sexual orientation. It just seems to be true. And, by finding that the incidence of transmen in the BJD community is far larger than in the general population, we find that at least part of this is. I suspect we would find a comparable picture if we looked at the other "minority" groups (and, again, I use that word for want of a better one).

And dollblue, those figures suggest that there is some real correlation between being in the BJD hobby and being a transman. It doesn't mean that all female-bodied people on here are transexuals in denial. It just means that, if you we born female-bodied, you are at higher risk of being transgendered if you are on DoA than if you're not. Perhaps it's something in the resin... No, I'm not really saying that there is something causal there. The nature of a correlation is that it doesn't state which of the factors is causing the effect or, in fact, if it is some third, but related, variable. So, it is equally possible (and more probable) that, if you are a transman, you are more likely to collect BJDs than would a biological woman. The fact that this forum is predominantly (presumably biologically) female is just because there are a hell of a lot more biological females than there are transmen.

For some reason, this hobby seems to attract a greater proportion of people who are nontraditional in their sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as in other attributes. And I would very much like to know why. There might be an element of the therapeutic element of these dolls just being something artistic. An outlet. But why dolls? And these dolls in particular? Why not stick with painting? Or writing? Or customising action figures? There has to be something more.

And, just to finish, "tranny" is indeed a pejorative term for a transexual/transgendered person, so isn't usually welcome. But the OP used it in inverted commas, so I took it to refer to the language used by people who may depict transpeople (or transvestites, as the term gets used for both). I took no offence, personally.

 

What are your thoughts on dolls and the gender spectrum?

As usual my thoughts are that you buy a doll the artist intended for you to customize and make your own. You can take the standard issue male/female sculpt and do what you want with it. It's as simple as that. Maybe because I am a straight female who grew up in a tolerant household with a gay uncle and had cross dressing and transgender friends here and there from my teens, and maybe the UK is generally more tolerant than other countries generally (although I'm sure many would disagree), I don't see what the big deal is anyway. People are just people, unless you are planning on having sex with another person - what does their gender orientation of preferences matter? I feel the same way about people's dolls and wonder why I detect a need to shock so often when people show photos of their cross-dressing, or differently sexed dolls. Are the owners really interested in these issues or are they just trying to be noticed?

 

Thanks so much for that-- I'm on the road & it woulda taken me 2 hours to articulate all that on this iPod. ^^ That is *exactly* what the eternal yaoi-bashing witchhunt smells like. Heteronormativity, fear, & Teen Spirit. Just let the girls have their porn, fachrissakes.

 

I have absolutely nothing against people who enjoy BL. The only fans I dislike are the ones who actively hate on women getting in the way of their precious pairings. BL fans tend to do this more than other fans do, often hating characters just because of their gender or calling someone homophobic if they support hetero pairings at all. I am not in any way suggesting that all BL fans do this, but the ones that do are SO LOUD about it that it can cause people outside the fandom to think that the whole fandom is nuts.

I realize that this isn't really related to the original topic, but I thought I'd offer up a possible explanation for why some people feel the need to hate on "yaoi fangirls".

 

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this 100%. Yaoi is fantasy. Yaoi is entertainment. Yaoi is not reality. Why is that so hard to understand? Yes, I am certainly aware that overzealous fans do exist (they exist in any fandom, after all), but as mosaicwolf said above, there are lots of us who don't fall into the 'crazy' and 'obsessive' stereotype. Actually, I don't even like using those terms because I honestly don't care what other people like, or how they choose to enjoy the things they love. Whatever floats your boat, you know? For me personally, I like what I like, and I'm not going to apologize or be made to feel as though I'm weird and ignorant and stupid because I like Yaoi. (Besides, haven't we all been called weird at some point or another, for being adults who play with and collect expensive dolls?)

I most definitely agree with this also, and well said.

 

I would actually take this a step further and say the doll hobby seems to attract a greater proportion of people who are comfortable with themselves. Gay, straight, male, female, trans, religious, atheist, whatever! Not sure if it's because the dolls themselves let us play out who we are. Or if it's because we've grown a thicker skin from all the "dolls are weird/stupid" comments. Or maybe people who are "different" are simply more vocal within the hobby (versus real life).

We should also keep in mind that tolerance is a two way street. I don't agree with heteronormativity. But I do think it's OK that some dolls/owners are fairly "normal". Just like it's OK that some dolls/owners are "different".

 

This is one of the most thought provoking threads I've read here.

I agree that "tranny" is offensive and shouldn't be used. I think our community is very open-minded for the most part, but we are conditioned to think certain ways from birth. To free your mind from all ignorance is very difficult to accomplish. There's no blanket answer here. Human beings are complicated.

I'm happy to come to a place where there's variety in expression.

 

:O! I never knew there was a name for it!

I adore~ having a lot of diversity in my creeps.
I have a trans women, a lesbian, 1 official gay, many hetero, some asexuals (Many people still do not believe in it :/) and every one else is Bi or Pan (whatever it's named) until I figure out what's their preference.

But I still get comments from people thinking they are all gay because of the 1 gay and 1 trans I have in my current crew. That's 2 in about 15 dolls!
They are the most girly, frilly, pink dolls I have right now and both are male. One wants to be a girl and the other simply likes dressing as one. I do not see anything wrong with it but not everyone seems to understand it... :/

Even the most manly one I have is being categorized as gay because the others all looks like girls, are gay, or simply because it's impossible to not have couples *rolleyes*

I do like to read BxB porn (i.e. Yaoi) once in a while, but why should it change anything ? I can fantasize how I want, it's not really supposed to be a mainstream thing :/

Though this would be the almost opposite to what the subject of this thread is. In RL we have heteronormativity, on the internet we have homonormativity :V

I like my dolls as they are, girly guys, gays, girly gals and manly gals (still need to get that one) I just wish more people would understand it...

 

Maumau's first post is something I have always found interesting. I know a lot of trans men on the forum, I dont know if that is because I look for them as one myself, but it is something I have noted. I like to wonder on why a lot of trans men are drawn to the hobby. I think Maumau's point in being we are drawn to BJDs in particular because they represent ourselves and have the ability to represent all forms, but unlike ourselves there are no biological limitations. There are also no laws, no judgement, no morality (well, from other dolls!). Its a world to be free to explore and modify the human form.

 

Wow, this is an incredible thread! I'm currently writing a graduate paper about BJDs and Judith Butler's concept of performativity, and I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that this hobby really doesn't question heteronormativity all that much. A lot of people identify their feminine boy dolls as "girly," merely superimposing "female" traits onto a male body. Could this in fact be a way to enforce heteronormativity while allowing us to believe that we're actually subverting it in this hobby?

(Oooooh, conspiracy!)

I don't know whether I believe this myself or not; I'm just toying around with theoretical ideas.

And I agree with undermost salamander's earlier comment that there are some people on here who do challenge heteronormativity with their dolls.

At the same time, I think it's perfectly all right to have a beautiful boy doll, or just a cute YoSD. I have both. We may just want to be aware of how these dolls fit into existing gender constructions.