Too many? (Dolls in drag, / relationships, etc)

I've read a lot of what was said on the first page but not going to lie and say I read all 19, sorry too time consuming, but I can see a lot of varying opinions from the last page. I agree mostly with things that have been said by [cari] because those reasons there are one of the reasons I don't even like to post my own dolls anymore. My boys are mainly homosexual as they are based off a story I wrote when I was 12, really big and deep into the yaoi anime scene (thank you Gundam Wing), but as I matured all that became a bit... what's the word.... tiresome?

What bothers me about all the yaoi, drag etc. on DoA is that it's just like [cari] said all the same. I have seen way too many El's dressed in tight leather butt hugger shorts and with pretty pink glitery faces hugging up on six other random doll males that are to equal levels of girl and complain in the manner of the stereotypical flamboyant queen you'd see in the Bird Cage.

I still adore homosexual relations and I mean homosexual relations, not the stereotypical anime style boy on boy that looks more like a flat chested girl hugging another flat chest girl and their only life trauma is how will I ever manage to get rid of that line of 60 other boyfriends following me. Pretty much the yaoi scene online, not just on DoA, has become the level of Twilight. Sorry if there are any Twilight fans out there but look at that relationship, wife beater vampire who is good looking with Mary Sue girl that takes his abuse and yet is loved by so many other people and could easily get away from it. It lacks depth. And that is the same issue I am seeing with the yaoi couples like the ones we see on DoA, they lack depth. I had the same issue with my own boy and guess what i reread his story he never dressed that way.

I bought into what people saw as popular and trendy because it may sound rude but what it appears is as if most people are making their doll gay just to get more comments. And I know for most that's not really the case. Your character could have been made before you even smelled the doll hobby, its just the state of the hobby now is rather... immature.

I've said my peace, take it how you like it.

 

Well, with excluding those you're only really left with manly men (I've seen plenty of loli girls here). Dolls can be kind of hard to make both masculine and cute :P

 

THIS! ALL THIS!!! I totally agree with you Hornisse. So its a fad/trend/etc. Big whoop. Its a hobby, where anyone can do what their dolls what they will. If someone is going to spend hundreds of dollars on a doll, they should be able to do what they like with it.

I personally don't think someone buys the doll, says "hey, I wanna be one of the cool kids" and jumps on the boys in drag/gay coupling/etc bandwagon. Most people that have done this are in another fandom with yaoi/etc that compliments this hobby. Its what THEY want their doll to be. I have a drag boy. I didn't spend the money to buy him and turn him into a pretty pink princess b/c I was following a trend, its because its what I wanted to do.

Whether its a trend or not, people can do what they please with their doll. They are the ones spending money on them. As far as it being on the forum, and the tons of stories devoted to them/etc., the vast majority of people posting gay boy stories/etc post "yaoi" in their titles or mention that is going to be in their thread... Don't like it, move on. This is a forum with thousands of people on it, of course there are going to be alot of repeat stories, themes, etc.

Also if you look at the marketing out there... alot of the boys are very bishie, they tend towards that yaoi persona. And even onto the loli theme/trend... look at how many loli outfits are out their for dolls... Its a trend, its what sells and what people want for their dolls.

Long story short, people should not have to worry about if its a trend or not, if they are willing to shovel out enough money for a doll, they can paint it hot pink and dress it in daisy dukes for all I care. It's their money and their doll, they should not be shunned/etc just b/c they choose to do something that could be seen as a over done trend.

If they love the doll, spent the money on the doll... its their choice. This is a hobby where you can customize dolls to what YOU want. You shouldn't have to worry that people are going to be going "omg wtf, you made another gay yaoi couple how dull".

 

i think people should be free to make their doll however they wish.
my next doll is somewhat draggy, dresses in skirts, wears fishnet stockings, but he's also somber with a bit of a heartbreaking past, and is reliving it now, seeing the person that crushed him so many years ago pop up again, but is rekindling himself in new love.
i mean, sure,
the immature boy/boy couples that have no story behind it, like zion said three replies up is immature, but i think if you can put your mind behind it, and really get creative, and don't just jump into the relationship-- these things take time-- the whole thing can be believable and pleasant. but making your doll gay to jump on a bandwagon is what. horrible.

so i think, if you aren't copying anyone, and this truly came from your own head, and there's a point to everything, you're okay.
but still.
it's your doll.
do whatever.

 

There is a wide spectrum of male doll personalities out there not limited to just cutesy homosexuals or manly heterosexuals. My CB boy is only manly in his looks; when he communicates you would think he's a girl going through a horrifying case of PMS, and he just can't keep his thoughts to himself, he's extremely childish. You don't really need to "make" a doll to be anything (as contradictory as that sounds). In fact I've personally found that owners who try to force a specific stereotypical personality onto a doll (manly, cutesy, innocent, angsty, etc) end up with a very one-dimensional character, leading to what we are essentially debating but on a larger scale: unoriginality, poor character depth, and the overall sense that something is being "done to death", only that we have narrowed it down strictly to homosexual dolls, which if you read through the thread it is apparent that this micro-level distinction has struck a few nerves resulting in the word "homophobic" being thrown around a bit too carelessly.

Or maybe it is just easy for me to criticize personality stereotypes in characters because of how involved I am in writing and literature, and how exposed I've been over the last eight years to often poorly-written, underdeveloped fanfiction. That may be a possibility.

The debate isn't about wether anyone shouldn't be allowed to do what they want with their dolls, I think that's one detail everyone is in acute understanding of. No one is saying that homosexual dolls should just dissapear or anything like that. The debate is trying to make sense of why someone would spend hundreds of dollars on a doll just to make it the same as every other doll. My answer to this, after having some time to think about it, is that not everyone has the imagination or creativity to build a three-dimentional, wholly-developed character, and that's completely understandable and I'm not saying it's a bad thing or that somehow the person is stupid. From personal experience as a writer, creating a character is extremely difficult and takes a lot of trial and error. Even famous and experienced writers like J.K. Rowling struggle at some point with character development, but it makes the character's completion even more wonderful. It's not just dressing them in a particular style of clothing, imagining a hairstyle and slapping on a personality. But not everyone is a writer, not everyone can spend ample ammounts of free time psycho-analyzing their character's personality to the very core, so there really isn't much else to say.

No one can really deny that a person is capable of doing this. In all honesty, there are at least a few people out there who probably think this way-- think of the ones who completely replicate another persons doll down to the very details, sometimes without even asking. This has stirred up a lot of controversy and debate as well in this forum. Yes, it may be their money and what THEY want their doll to be, and maybe it is their 'right' to do it because it's at their own financial expense, but think of the person who put strenuous ammounts of effort into developing this doll and building it into what it is just to have someone with little creativity of their own sporting this doll as their own, as a character that they claim to understand, when it is quite the opposite. I've been on the recieving end of character theft along with art theft before, and it's like having a piece of yourself stolen away from you. This doesn't really apply well to infamous or published/copywrited characters like Harry Potter or Alice in Wonderland, per say, but to a lot of novices or people like me who just write for a hobby and don't care much for publicity, having your character exploited by someone else really hurts and isn't something one can just brush off like it's nothing.

While this is technically a different debate topic on its own, think of it this way: just because it's their money and what they want to do to a doll, a line needs to be drawn somewhere to prevent unnecessary drama. To many, this line has been given the name intellectual property. One of the often overlooked problems with the stereotypical homosexual doll overpopulation, along with really ANY stereotypical character or style that has become popular, is that while all of the dolls may have some variation in appearance, they are all essentially the exact same one-dimensional character, just being portrayed in a slightly different story. It's the mental equivalent to someone attending, say, an anime convention, because they love anime and want to watch and learn about all types of it and meet different people who also enjoy it, but then the entire time find themselves surrounded by a crowd of nothing but Naruto cosplayers who won't stop shouting "DATTEBAYO!" every few minutes. You can imagine that at some point, patience is going to wear thin, ad nauseum is going to kick in, and really, who can blame them?

And then to present it in another light, to show the problem with the logic "it's their ____ and they can do what they want with it": this logic can justify so many things, I wonder if you've thought of them yet. Child pornography. Slavery. The underground sex trade. Wealthy middle eastern families providing money to terrorist groups. Parents abusing their children. Pretty extreme cases, but this is just to show how that discrepancy is extremely important, even in something as mundane as doll collecting.

I addressed the problem with this logic above.

"Don't like it, move on" isn't a suitable counter-argument for this debate, I've covered this already in one of my previous posts. Apathy and indifference is only usefull to apply outside this forum. The entire point of a debate is to...well, care. The OP specifically asked for opinions on this topic and so everyone is obliged to say exactly what they are thinking, even if it is something we wouldn't dare say outside the debate. To be completely fair, everyone here already follows your advice (do you see any of us posting these opinions in the photostory forum? No, we're only doing it here, where we've been asked to give them), so there is no reason to chide everyone.

And no one is saying that this is inherently a 'bad' thing. Remember back to my convention metaphore. The Naruto cosplayers have just as much right to do what they do as much as the other convention-goer has the right to be thoroughly annoyed with them. The logic works both ways and both sides are justified to do what they do and think what they think.

This is just a repetition of everything you have already said. I have already addressed the faulty logic behind "it's their _____ so they can do what they want with it".

Also, to be blunt, no intelligent person would ever say something like that if the creator didn't specifically ask for outside input.

 

cari, I'm finding that alot of what you're basing your arguement around is on the fact that you feel people are coming up with flat, one-dimensional characters for their dolls and that is the basis of this so-called problem that is the whole point of this debate.

My question to you however, is how do you really know that those dolls' characters are really so one-dimensional and stereotypical? Reading your short description about your CB boy I can honestly say he sounds like dozens of other childish pretty boys I've read about and seen, and I could easily write him off as being a personality you grabbed out of thin air and only use for drama-filled scenes. But would that be right? Given how much you pride yourself in your knowledge of literature here I'm guessing not. But off of just that one short description and maybe even after a couple of photostories, I seriously doubt I would still be able to grasp the depth of his character.

Having a conversation with someone for a short amount of time, at least in my experience when it comes to wanting to talk about my dolls and their stories and characters, is just simply not enough time to really get across all the work and history I've written into them over the years. I can easily see how they'd come across as stereotypical 'yaoi boys wearing too many frills and long hair'. Is that all there is to them? Absolutely not. But is it really so easy to convey the vast amount of thought and work I have put into them without some serious time to discuss? I really don't think so.

 

The majority of lesbian porn is made for heterosexual men. It's fantasy, not reality, and heterosexual men are the majority consumers of female/female porn. Lesbians seem to be a common sexual fetish for heterosexual men.

I've noticed the opposite for heterosexual women, that a lot of heterosexual women have a homosexual male fetish. Since heterosexual females are the majority on this forum, it's kind of unsurprising to me to see a lot of guy/guy fantasies.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much it, I guess.

You bring up a good point. The only information we can gather about another person's dolls is from what they present at face-value through photostories on the forum, so naturally we're never going to be able to fully understand the depth of the character, especially if it isn't presented well in online medium. But for debate purposes, I don't think this point is necessary, since the topic of debate is specific to this face-value information alone. The OP pointed out a general perception they recieved from said information and that is the main focus of the debate-- I'm not denying your point, because it was a valid one. But I think it is straying a bit from the nature of the debate topic.

As for my CB boy, I can understand how you would read the short description and see it as a typical personality for a doll. I wouldn't have expected you to gather anything less from a one-sentence summary of him. But I have to point out three things, the first being that you took the sentence out of context. I only wrote that one-sentence summary to challenge the idea presented by the poster I was replying to, which was that if we removed all cute homosexual dolls from the photostory forum we would "only really be left with manly men". My Lance was a good example to use in my refute for obvious reasons. I wasn't at all implying that my characters are somehow better than others because I have writing experience, and if I did, please point it out to me. Anyhow, the second thing I need to mention in his defense is that I never described him as a "pretty-boy". I'm sorry to be picky, but I have had words put into my mouth several times in this debate already and I would greatly appreciate it if it didn't start again, that is all I ask. The third point I need to make is again, related to context-- this debate is about what a person percieves from face-value via photostories that are meant to convey characters through in-depth interaction. You can't possibly use my one out-of-context sentence, which was meant to be brief and simple, and compare it to these photostories which are intended to convey characters in-depth. It just doesn't work.

I don't disagree with anything you have just said. But, again, we're straying from the context. Photostories. You are comparing the difficulty of conveying a character within a short verbal conversation to photostories, where the conveyer has no limit of time while also the advantage of actually being able to show us these character from a first-person perspective in their own environment. I'm sorry for being annoyingly anal about this, but taking the debate out of context kind of takes away from the entire point. I'd be glad to hear any thoughts you have pertaining to the issue of lack of character depth specifically in photostories portraying homosexual dolls you bring up excellent points.

 

cari, my apologies for having little time at the moment so I cannot give a full response back to you, I only wanted to say that I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, as you put it. I noticed your Lance was a CB Yeon-Ho and in my mind he is just a very pretty sculpt for a boy. If that is not how you intend for your Yeon-ho to be percieved by others then I fully detract that part of my statement and I hope you understand what it was I meant by saying since most people don't really associate Yeon-ho's with being particularly ugly.

However, what you say about taking these dolls at face-value irks me. I do not mean to target you personally, only that you stated what I do believe the whole reason this whole 'problem' of "too many" gay dolls is even a problem at all. So many people write off all gay or cross-dressing dolls as being exactly the same because they only look at them at face-value. Many people have expressed a desire for more heterosexual couples, masculine dolls and lesbian couples. What bothers me about this is that by stating that seems to imply that something such as a characters sexuality really holds that much value over how well the character is developed. That somehow a heterosexual doll will inherently have more depth to its story, have a much more unique personality and overall more *life*. And that if a male doll's character is gay then he must fit within a stereotypical gay storytype with a stereotypical personality. It just seems a little ridiculous to me to write off someone or their dolls as immature by taking them only at face-value without more explanation to a possible depth. Anyway, I know that was not your particular arguement and I did not mean that to sound entirely directed toward you, simply that I think keeping this debate to something as shallow as this (where apparently the reply of 'do what you want with your own dolls and ignore what you don't like' is not an option) is a bit ridiculous.

And as you mentioned photostories, I'd just like to add real quick, as I'm sure you well know that photostories are a completely different medium than writing or even drawing to express a character. It takes a new type of skill and a different understanding that even with all the time in the world, could take many, many photostories to actually grasp how to make it work. It is not just a matter of taking a single picture to convey emotion, it is scripting (which can be unbelievably difficult for people such as myself who are horrible with dialogue), correct angles, wardrobe, setting, lighting, etc. All of these combine together and if one thing is off, it can detract from the entire photostory causing a reader to become distracted and no longer focus on the character development that is being attempted to be portrayed and instead only notice the 'another gay dolly ho-hum'.

In general (to anyone), I am not saying all dolls have huge, deeply intricate characters to them and truly some people might simply like cross-dressing their dolls because of the aesthetic and that is fine. But to write off all dolls that have a similar style as being exactly the same because we're only taking the dolls at face-value is completely missing the whole point as to why other types of people collect as well, to create elaborate characters in 3-dimensional form. That is when it gets to the point that people are no longer judging dolls but the owners themselves as all coming from the same, weeaboo, immature fangirl mindset and that is what I have a problem with.

 

If something is done well, then I don't mind at all. I like looking at pretty dolls ^___^ be it gay, hetero, cross-dressing, punk, emo, elf, angel, alien, etc...

btw i dress my girl in punk clothing because i like punk music, and i totally love motorcycle jackets. If only i could get small studs to put in and complete the look, i would be happy! And a mohawk would be nice...

 

ummm... just jumping in here that I would love to see more edwardian kuroshitsuji type clothes actually done well... several companies sell them, but it isn't nearly as common as punk/goth thing...Oh and I mean for boys of course.

But even that is significantly more common than many other styles... when's the last time you saw a hippy, cowboy, poodle skirt, asian-thats-not-chinese-or-japanese, african, greek, roman, egyptian (seen maybe...two.), mexican, hawaiian, or brazillian styled doll? For many of these, i can easily say never. And when I do see one, I can't help but think it's neat! I remember seeing a doll who looked in a similar style to Dr. Manhattan's old girl from Watchmen, the dark curled hair and red lips, very elegant and very classic American from days past... it was really neat!!

Even pirates, you hardly ever see, and I'm honestly shocked about that one!

 

Apologies accepted, though I understand now where exactly you were coming from with the previous comment and that you didn't mean it to be taken the wrong way. I don't consider my Yeon-Ho ugly at all (if I did you'd be right to call me dillusional), but I felt at the time that the use of 'pretty-boy' held a negative connotation because it is a trait that reflects on both the appearance and personality of a character.

Firstly, I'd like to repeat something that I have had to say several times already: I have no problem at all with gay dolls, and no, I don't think that there are "too many". I have seen some excellently written photostories portraying homosexual dolls. The 'problem' arises solely with said portrayal. As I and many have already suggested, the swarm of stereotypical, cookie-cutter yaoi-inspired characters and stories have saturated the forums to such a degree that over time it has become overbearing to many of the users who visit that forum often. It was enough overload to the point where, sadly, this debate came into existence.

Anyway, onto my other points. The problem that we are going to run into if we start to go deeper than face-value is that the internet is a completely unique social environment that relies 100% on this face-value information-- there really isn't any choice in the matter. It's the nature of the beast, it comes with the territory. "Knowing" someone or something online is never really "knowing" them at all, compared to how we would if we were interacting in real life face-to-face.

The second snag we are going to hit is, as I mentioned before, portrayal. These dolls are not real, they can't speak and tell their story-- it is 100% up to the owner of the doll to bring it to life. (I'm going to use very general terms here, so bear with me)...what this means is that an influx of (mostly) young heterosexual females with a penchant for yaoi stereotypes are trying to depict a homosexual male character to an audience that isn't entirely partial to yaoi or may have never even heard the term. Factor this issue into the first problem of indirect, hindered levels of communication, and there are going to be unfortunate problems. I hope this is making sense.

Many people have expressed those desires simply because it would be refreshing to see an equal ammount of every possible portrayal of doll types/relationships that there is, unique or not. This is, of course, wishful thinking, and a generally harmless opinion. I wouldn't be bothered by it or try to find any deeper meaning. It is the owner, not the doll, who determines the depth and level of uniqueness and quality in a story. I don't disagree with you.

The problem herein lies, again, with the internet. We have no choice but to take things at face-value, like I have already said. If the owner does not portray the doll in a way that catched the interest of the reader, the reader will simply write it off, and there is no reason for them not to. There are very good homosexual doll stories out there that are interesting and in-depth. The problem with the influence of the Yaoi fandom is that their particular brand of 'interesting' and 'in-depth' are of a different kind, a kind that only tends to attract others who enjoy yaoi, leaving many others who aren't familiar with it going "what on earth is this style why is there so much of it?"

I already explained my reasoning behind why I don't find apathy to be suitable in a debate setting, and I still stand by it. If you would like to contest it, you are welcome to.

I know that photostories can be difficult to create, I agree with you.

I don't disagree with any of this.

 

This seems to have turned into an endless debate about gay dolls! I admit I have only read about half of the pages and not all 19 but a sample of most.

I am an artist/illustrator and have notbeen in this hobby for very long. I do personally feel i have seen enough of the girly looking dolls now... But I don't let it bother me as search around looking for what I do like! It is hard when you are a newbie and have no experience to anything other than follow the trends as that is what you are bombarded with when you arrive at bjd world...I wa sucked into the elf/fantasy thing because that is what I read and it appeals to me but after a while I realised that Iwas getting a bit samey and as when I paint draw I analysed what I was doing sold some dolls and understood what I wanted from the remainder.

Most people are not trained as I was to see and be analytical this is a hobby and not psyche 101 and they are in it for the joy and fun( me too by the way) and like me many have discovered other genre themes etc and have thought OOOh I like that. For me steampunk is a whole new world but for many it will oh god not steampunk again.

It is implicit that on a forum like this that politeness and respect are paramount( thank god for these debates where we can let off steam) I don't like my daughters taste in skinny boys as boyfriends well I don't have to date them and its the same for me with dolls. I have friends with dolls I loathe but so what they are not asking me to have them too. They probably don't like my dolls either because we all like different stuff.

If you can't for whatever reason paint, make wigs etc then you are limited to giving your doll what you can buy aren't you? So then you are at the manufacturers choices and while there are a lot of choices by definition they are making what sells and we are buying it... I am lucky that I paint, sew, draw, make jewellery and can make a reasonable wig too, all because of the training I have had in my life and the various branches of art I have explored. Most ( not all) people have to get custom face ups or have the default, buy ther clothes ready made and the wigs etc etc...So it is no wonder that there are a lot of the same dolls out there.

I for one say who cares... enjoyment, fun, excitement and love that is the reason for being a bjd owner I think.

Sorry about any spelling and stuff I am dyslexic and it gets the better of me sometimes when I type fast.

 

[QUOTE='[ cari ]One of the often overlooked problems with the stereotypical homosexual doll overpopulation, along with really ANY stereotypical character or style that has become popular, is that while all of the dolls may have some variation in appearance, they are all essentially the exact same one-dimensional character, just being portrayed in a slightly different story. It's the mental equivalent to someone attending, say, an anime convention, because they love anime and want to watch and learn about all types of it and meet different people who also enjoy it, but then the entire time find themselves surrounded by a crowd of nothing but Naruto cosplayers who won't stop shouting "DATTEBAYO!" every few minutes. You can imagine that at some point, patience is going to wear thin, ad nauseum is going to kick in, and really, who can blame them?[/quote]

That example is pretty thin, since in the internet, one might simply *not* look at photostories that has yaoi themes in it.

The main difference is none of these photostories will suddenly jump out and scream "DATTEBAYO!!!" every few minutes.

Are you really going to equate people saying it's alright to do whatever you want with your doll, to people justifying those horrible things? You lecture people on how to debate, yet you stoop to this level.

It seems like your beef is against the yaoi fandom, or fandom in general. Or maybe it's just the younger fans of yaoi you don't like. The nature of this hobby caters to fandom-ism, especially to the yaoi theme. That is why (or maybe it's the reason) the overwhelmingly majority of the boy sculpts that's on the market right now are very feminine-looking. That is why the majority of boy BJDs out there have very feminine faceups.

I guess what I don't understand is the feeling of, to use your own words, "overbearing" and "overload" comes from? Those so-called cookie-cutter yaoi dolls are not gonna pop out of your computer and scream at your face, unlike some attention-starved cosplayers in a convention. I could understand cosplayers getting annoying since it would take some physical and mental exercise to tune them out, but the "overwhelming" yaoi in this forum? Nah.

And while your gay friend find the portrayal of yaoi characters and the fandom that goes along with it is an insult to homosexuals, I know other gays who likes yaoi, so i don't really get why mentioning your gay friend would contribute anything to the debate.

 

But what if I am someone who wants to look at photostories with homosexual dolls? I have brought up this point a few times already: I don't dislike portrayals of homosexual dolls in photostories, I have read a few very nice ones here, but they are extremely hard to come by. And so because I do enjoy reading well-composed photostories with gay dolls, I have so sift through literally hundreds of stereotypical yaoi-inspirations to find these. Because I DO like to find the good ones, I can't simply *not* look at photostories that are yaoi-inspired, or else I won't be able to find my needle in the haystack.

And even if I am someone who isn't interested in yaoi and goes to the photostory forum to read, say, comedy photostories, I'm still going to come across these yaoi-inspired photostories that incorporate "comedy" in them due to the fact that yaoi can branch out into almost any thematic category. Your idea that a person can simply *not* stumble upon these characters and material while in the photostory forum is, I find, unrealistic.

This ties into the point I made above. Yes, sometimes while browsing the photostory forum these particular stories will pop out at you. If you are searching through a long list of stories and opening titles you find interesting or ones with a particular doll sculpt you want to see, it's going to happen.

Yes, I am. I think you failed to miss the point of that argument, so I will clarify. I was merely using those examples to counter the logical formula "it's their ____ so they can do whatever they want" and explain that logic like this is in desperate need of discrepancy. It isn't rational. That same logic can say "it's their child, and they can do what they want." "it's their slave, so they can do what they want". "It's Iraq's money, so they can do what they want".

And I also clearly stated those as "pretty extreme cases", but I was only using them specifically to counter the logic being used and for no other comparative purposes (you seem to think I was still on the topic of dolls at this point, which is a misconception). I also see a personal attack creeping in with that last sentence. Please, lets try to avoid that kind of talk here. I want this to stay calm and enjoyable.

I won't deny that whenever I have an encounter with the more eccentric side of yaoi fandom I can't help but feel a bit overwhelmed and...well, in general, not happy to see it. I've been around it long enough to reach that point. If we were to blame me entirely and say that I'm just a mean, judgemental person, that wouldn't be fair. If we were to solely blame the fandom for being eccentric, that wouldn't be fair. If you go back to page 19 or 18 (I can't remember which), I gave a metaphor using music in retail stores to present the reason for my indifference.

I do have a separate theory on why a majority of boy BJD's out there have faminine face-ups, I wonder if you will agree. This hobby is dominated by females, many of who are more drawn to feminine things, or perhaps see something in a male BJD that reminds them of their ideal femininity. Just a theory, though. There are probably dozens of reason why men with more feminine faces are popularized, and this isn't just limited to the BJD community. We could probably sit here and chat all day and come up with a hundred or so psycho-analyzations and freudian theories as to why this is.

Perhaps this all boils down to personal experience. If we both have different experiences and therefore opinions of popular yaoi, we are going to react differently when it presents itself, so naturally you wouldn't understand my feeling of being overloaded, just as I have trouble understanding your indifference to it. It's a vicious cycle.

Well, my gay friend likes yaoi, too. He was reacting in response to specific homosexual stereotypes presented in not all yaoi, but a good deal of it, mainly the characters who have gotten overexposure because of the fandom. Sometimes stereotypes, even when attempted to be presented in a good light, still hold a negative connotation for some, and that is understandable.

Hope everything I have said makes sense.

 

[cari] - While I do agree with your beginning statements, people do end up copying, essentially "stealing" characters, etc. You have a very valid point there.

But as you have said, the debate is about an idea being done to death, not exact copies of dolls. Yes I have to agree with you some people will jump on the bandwagon with their normally gay doll in a one dimensional character/etc. But I don't see it happening in such a huge mass following that it becomes too annoying or "done to death". I call it a trend or a fad... as many before me in the discussion have said.

As you've stated with the convention example. Sometimes a trend (like the Naruto cosplayers/fans) just takes off. That's GOING to happen. In any hobby. While it may be annoying to others in the hobby who really put the time and effort into what they enjoy, these others are also enjoying the hobby in their own way. Their can be no real "right" side to it b/c each side is in the right. They are choosing to celebrate their fandom as the please, whether it be follow a trend or find something original.

I'm agreed that some ideas get recycled, reused, and dolls end up as unimaginative, uncreative, one-dimensional things. But I'd say it's less "done to death" and more of a "trend". Just like certain animes will become more popular than others and dominate conventions like Naruto. So will trends and themes continue to happen in this hobby.

And to my point about money. As long as these people are not directly copying someone. Yes their one dimensional gay characters/theme characters may have followed a trend or fad but once again its their dolls. They are welcome to do with it as they please.... you debate it by saying this:

How you can compare something that extreme to doll collecting is well... a bit odd. When I say its their money to do with as they please... I'm saying IN the doll hobby. This debate is about the doll hobby NOT child porn, slavery, etc. I would never include such a statement into something like that. It is not comparable by ANY means. So this argument is in a way void to the topic.

When people spend money on a "harmless" hobby such as doll collecting it is theirs. They purchased the doll. If they want to spend hundreds of dollars to make a bland character. So be it.

Edit: Also... I apologize if in both my posts I end up repeating myself... I'm working on a java programming project for class and my brain sometimes ends up repeating things in different phrases because its fried. lol.

 

But it has happened. The proof is this very thread we are posting in that has sparked 20 pages of debate. So far I have not seen anyone deny the fact that there are ample ammounts of yaoi-influenced photostories. The only disagreement is that it has been "done to death". And of course, no one agrees. But the fact that there are so many people who do acknowledge that it has become an overwhelming presence on the forums, to the point where they agree with the OP and the idea of "done to death", speaks for itself. And really, is there much of a difference at all between "fad" and "dont to death" other than the added negative connotation?

I don't disagree with any of this. Because of the diversity and different interests of the community, there are going to be disagreements in taste and nothing is going to change that. I agree that there is no real "right" side.

I think I need to explain myself again. I had hoped that those examples would have gotten the point accross, the point that that specific train of logic is faulty no matter how you use it, wether in the doll hobby or in the examples that I mentioned, when it is used without discrepancy. I'll try to use some doll-related examples this time. If you say "it's their doll and they can do what they want with it", and you use this logic without discrepancy, you are implying that a person can literally do whatever they want with a doll. In cases where doll characters have been stolen and completely reproduced by the stealer, without permission? Well, it's their doll and they can do what they want. If someone decided to throw their doll through a glass window? Their doll, they can do what they want. I could even go and beat someone over the head with one of my dolls and justify myself by saying, "well it's my doll and I'll do what I want". The key here is that we need discrepancy-- there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. That is why I disagree with the blanket statement of "it's their doll and they can do what they want". It's a slippery slope.

But, like I said, what if they want that character to be one that belongs to someone else? What if they completely replicate that other person's doll without permission, down to the very details? The situation is no longer "harmless". People are going to get hurt and upset, and I'm sure someone who has had a very dear character to them replicated behind their back isn't likely to accept "well it's my hundreds of dollars I spent, not yours" as an excuse. Again, we need to have discrepancy somewhere.

Understandable :P I hope you get things working well again.

 

This train of logic is ridiculous, bordering on complete lunacy. Unless the doll owner is a sociopath with no sense of empathy, that owner will realize there is a significant difference between creating a character that is similiar to or the same as another and physically assaulting another person. This is common sense. You are implying that doll owners who claim "I can do what I want with my doll" lack common sense in declaring that.

So, yes, people can do what they want with their dolls so long as it does not hurt someone. Is it hurting you to see lots of yaoi, bland or otherwise?

Copy-catting someone else's dolls is an entirely different debate. Can you provide examples of where and when exact copy-catting has occurred?

 

That was the entire point I was trying to get at. I'm glad that we agree. And no, it doesn't hurt seeing lots of yaoi, but I wasn't using that argument to suggest anything like that. Again, lets not take anything out of context here. I was only analyzing the logical formula itself, it had absolutely nothing to do with yaoi-inspired dolls at that point. I was only arguing against the logic itself.

Some examples can be found in this debate thread. A few people bring up cases where original doll characters have been everything from subtly mimicked to fully replicated (hopefully they are still there, it's been a while since I've looked). Hope this is suitable.

 

You're mistaken. I don't agree with you at all. I'm offended that you think so.