Too many? (Dolls in drag, / relationships, etc)

ED is only satire :P no reason to get upset.

 

It's not a stupid quote. There is really no arguing the fact that the genre of comic that Westerners refer to as yaoi is almost exclusively made by female Japanese authors for female readers, and were never intended for gay men to read them. The BL manga and goods are shelved on the girl's floor of Animate. They are the target audience.

That doesn't mean that men can't enjoy reading them or contribute to online fandom, but the actual genre has never been and never will be about them. It's silly to insist otherwise.

 

It has become stupid, if not originally so in its own right. For example, a friend of mine once said "Men aren't allowed to read yaoi, its for girls." I just find it silly to stereotype one thing to a certain gender, another reason why I am so pleased to see male doll collectors and women football players and the like. Hell, im one of the people who got into yorkie bars because one of my male friends took the "Its not for girls" thing too seriously.

I see your point, and yes it probably was aimed at women- But I dont think that it was made entirely by women, and in todays society- or at least where I live, its silly to specifiy something to one gender (Unless of course it requires certain body parts but even then, surgery does wonders) as the other gender will always sneak in.

Fair point though! I see where you're coming from

 

The problem is that no matter what you feel about it, you're not changing the actual reality of the situation, which is that boy's love authors are women and the target audience for boy's love comics is women. You don't find them on the boy's floor of merchandise. It really was created by women in the 70's and early 80's. Not men. I can't think of a single male author of boy's love, and the male mangaka who do create homoerotica do so in an entirely different genre. It's not boy's love, which is really what everyone should be calling yaoi, but that is a whole different discussion about word appropriation and misuse.

Your friend was incorrect in saying that boys can't read it. Anyone can read it if they want to. The phrase is brought up again and again because people don't seem to understand that BL manga has never been meant to be an accurate representation of an actual homosexual relationship between two men. The tropes of the genre are female driven fantasy and about as connected to reality as your average bodice ripping romance novel. That's what the "by women for women" is about and why it comes up so much when people start complaining about how unrealistic it all is.

 

A little late to reply here, but for what it's worth not all of us (Not even among doll owners who have gay characters-) are yaoi fans. I don't mind that other people enjoy it... If that's their interest, more power to them... But for myself? No thanks; just not "my thing". At all.

So, don't feel like you're alone. You're not, in spite of how common the yaoi/dollfie-fan cross-over seems to be. Maybe it just looks that way becuase those of us who aren't all about boy's love are a little quieter about it?

 

I can! The writer of Only The Ring Finger Knows is male ; D

Er...That's it because I've already replied to this thread once ha ha.

 

Quoted for absolute truth!

I understand the fear of stereotyping, and I imagine that there are indeed fangirls out there who believe that BL manga reflects the truth of homosexual relationships. However, it is not the responsibility of the doll community to educate these people as to the workings of a "normal" gay couple. I play with my dolls for my own enjoyment, not to provide a teachable moment for people who don't know the difference between fantasy and reality.

 

The writer is male? I know I've read an interview where they were referred to as she, and didn't she speak on one of the drama cds? I know the artist is female.

 

Very interesting topic. I am not overly familiar with the subject matter of "yaoi" only what has been written in Wikipedia. And many times that is "who posted last."

Rather than asking you to regurgitate what has already been posted here, perhaps some kind members could PM me with samples of what constitutes the "yaoi" type of storyline vs "manga." I would be interested in reading samples and seeing if I could perceive a difference.

Furthermore, what I have gleamed from various posts and pictures is that this is a wonderful forum for expressing diversity. I'm not offended in the least by the love and care people put into their story lines. So what if the lead characters happened to be paired males or paired females. And as far as that theme being "overdone," well for the last decade, I can remember being allowed to only see Barbie with Ken on several other boards. Would you also call that "overdone"? LOL! Truth is, imagination can never be overplayed and the fact that there are so many worldly people here is quite refreshing and encouraging.

As we move further into the future, there are some lines I don't have a problem with when they become blurred. Such as defining what is true love and expression. May your dolls be your one of your outlets.

 

My understanding of the annoyance with clichés is they get annoying when they don’t have any redeeming factors and the cliché is all there is. If someone hypers around me squeeing: "This is my boy doll and he’s gay. He’s gay and he’s cute! He’s so cute, because he’s gay and he messes around with boys, because he’s gay and it’s so cute!" I’d be annoyed too, but not more or less annoyed when someone would squeal: "This is my girl doll and she’s really smart. She’s smart and has an IQ of 273! She’s so smart, because she has an IQ of 273 and she wins Nobel Prices, because she’s so smart and that’s because of her IQ of 273!" Both concepts don’t get past "cutely gay" or "IQ of 273" and that becomes boring pretty fast.
If someone manages to add more than just that one thing and let it interact with the character, but also the environment and other people/characters, figure out how it all "fits", maybe add some symbolism or situations people can identify with, the irritation level drops.

On the other hand, how much depth do you expect to discover in a single photo story or photo shoot posted by some stranger on the internet? (DoA is huge and I won't expect people to spend days looking for symbolic layers in all photo threads.) Maybe it’s there, but you only get to see a small part of it.
It could also be that for the "offending" doll’s owner this hobby is just for relaxation and fun and if it’s meant as a quick fix, how much depth can you expect? (If someone told you there's an explicit sex scene in War and Peace, would you read the whole book?) I have dolls with multi-layered backgrounds as well as "Er... well, he’s a teenager and that's it." dolls, and I'm sure the simplified dolls are bound to annoy people if I keep on telling about them.
It’s just that not everybody keeps talking about the same thing. A lot of people tell the same thing for the first or second time. Maybe most of us have seen a thousand of pictures with gay couples by now, but I bet some are new to it and like to see those pics or would like to share the first pics they made. For them it's not too many (yet).

 

well i think that many ppl just wanna be special, and want their dolls to be special as well. so they are trying to do unusual things that arent so unusual anymore. but in fact i think theres still more hetero stuff than homosexual stuff, or ppl who dress their dolls "normal" instead of hiding their gender or something. and to be honest, there arent so many options. either your doll is straight or bi/homosexual, i mean its not like theres much else to choose from. so of course the same things show up over and over again. and i think since there are more straight dolls, that its weird to say "too many ppl make their dolls gay", you dont say either "too many ppl have hetero dolls"...

 

I believe it is silly to assume that everything you believe is the only truth and that nothing will change.

I do understand your point of view and I do not mean to be rude but I do not agree with you at all!

BL manga is shelved on the girl's floor... so? Naruto is shounen manga but does that mean it was meant for boys and for boys only? It is simply the name of the genre! Yaoi is a genre. Its main target may be girls but it sure as hell is not silly to insist that more and more yaoi will be written by men and more men will read it. There are many different types of yaoi that appeal to different people.
And would like to point out that it is not only women who likes "girly" pretty boys. Not everyone has the same idea of what is feminine or masculine. What some may refer to as feminine I might call elegant.

(From one simple google search I got a list of male or possibly male mangakas who writes yaoi and there is likely to be many more!
Kujou Aoi, Sakura Haiji, Kisaragi Hirotaka, Sugahara Ryu, Takagi Ryo , Osada Noto, Tagame Gengoroh and Tsukumo Gou.)

 

Well said!

 

No offense, but isn't this superior and dismissive? :\ for someone who claims to be annoyed by that kind of tone in a debate, you use it pretty well.

 

You just totally missed Kim's point.

She did not say men couldn't write yaoi. She didn't say men couldn't read yaoi. She said the BL genre was originally conceived by women, for women, and was marketed towards a female audience. She said that the actual genre has never been and will never be about a male audience, and she's right. The fact that men may read/write/draw in the genre doesn't change its origins or its marketing push. You can't change the history or origins of the genre, regardless of whether or not you 'agree' with the statement. What she said is the truth, it's not an issue of belief or non-belief.

To take your Naruto example -- I read/watch Naruto. I'm a big big fan of the series. I cosplay in the series. I also happen to be female and 32 years old. Naruto is a shonen manga; it's written for and marketed towards a younger male audience. Does that mean I can't watch/read and enjoy it? Of course not. But that does not change the fact that it is not, never has been, and never will be marketed towards my demographic. You see the difference?

 

Perhaps I can help you understand. When Kim says "target audience", she means the audience for which that material was created and/or marketed. She means the audience that the author & publisher are "aiming" at. This guides the way a product is consumed, & by whom. But it has little to do with the /reality/ of who consumes it in the end.

Yaoi has a female target audience. One look at the cover art & choice of font should make that obvious! Of course it doesn't mean males cannot/do not buy it. It's simply not made or marketed with men in mind. Its design & content caters to marketing notions of what women like. The type of m/m comics that're written by men for men, that has a verrrry different look, packaging, etc. to appeal to a gay male target audience.

On the other hand, Kim and I both like heavy metal, which has a straight male target audience. The fact that lots of other women and gay men also like metal /doesn't/ change the fact that it isn't marketed ("aimed") at us. It's not /our/ hearts & dollars they really want. One look at a Cannibal Corpse album cover should make THAT obvious!-- they want the 18-to-25-hetero-male demographic. (Ditto all this for the NFL.)

Hope this helps you & Blondewerewolf improve your basic grasp on things.

ETA: Jinx! Tez beat me to the marketing essay!! D'oh!

 

Has this thread gone off topic or am I just reading the posts wrong...? Anyway, to get back to the original point of the thread, it dose sometimes seem that there are allot of gay, punk, drag dolls out there. However as some people had already said here, there's the trend types and the personality types. Like my two dolls Eien & Tori, their gay and married, they've always been this way even before they were made into dolls (I draw so allot of my charaters become dolls later on) & Candy has a goth/punk style but he's always been that way since it's the natural look on his home planet. Also Eien dose wear dresses but that's cause on his home planet clothing styles aren't defined to one gender, so boys and girls wear whatever. Ah, ok then, yes it can be a bit over-done at times but there's things like that in real life so yes it would happen to doll life too I guess... Good topic though, gets a few feathers ruffled however

 

Takagi Ryo is a woman. I'm not familiar with some of the other mangaka. Are you sure they are actually BL mangaka? Just because it deals with gay men doesn't mean it is actually a BL manga. I could be wrong, of course, about your list, but male authors are the exception to the rule. And when people ask and want to know why certain tropes exist in BL manga and inspired fandom, you cannot ignore the fact that the genre was created by women exclusively, and that they are the ones who created those very tropes.

And to answer your question, yes, Naruto is a shounen series. Its intended demographic is young boys. 85% of Shounen Jump's readership may be adult women for all we know (and I've read reports that women may be its biggest supporter), but the magazine will always be considered a shounen magazine and be shelved on the boy's floor. It's a bit like.....I actually love hentai games. They're really silly and fun to play, but never for one second do I think that these games were created with potential female consumers in mind or have any resemblance to actual heterosexual relationships. They're male wish fulfillment fantasies. It would be silly of me to think otherwise.