Too many? (Dolls in drag, / relationships, etc)

Your reality may differ from mine you know.
My point is that not all yaoi mangakas are women but there are men as well. Homoerotica in manga form is what I call yaoi. And it is what my Japanese male friends call it as well.
There are different kinds of it targeted toward different kinds of readers. That is at least how I see it. A lot of you may not agree and you are totally entitled to so. I do not think there are absolute truths about anything.
If you say that yaoi's main target is women, then I agree. If you say its only target is women, then I do not agree.

What I am trying to say is that most yaoi may be aimed towards young women. But not all of it is made by women and for women only. That is all.

 

I never said I overly disagreed with Kim, I did say she had a good point. My point is simply that boys can enjoy yaoi too if they so wish. At the end of the day I dont have any argument with Kim's point at all, hence why I hadn't retaliated- so I find this a little odd (and mildly rude, but then again you cant really tell the tone of something from text so), but there you go.

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Overall I think this topic has descended into outright arguments and digs (not related to my response to Jenny at all, I do think she and Kim have very good points) rather than discussion.

My point is, and what I am sticking by- is when you think about it, everything is overdone in one way or another. So its pointless to just point out certain things all "OMG THIS IS SOOOO OVERDONE" because if we were to make a list, there'd be nothing left as original.

 

The fact that you referred to "by women for women" as "that stupid quote" indicated you had a shaky grasp of the idea of marketing, so I included you. Nothing more.

I think there are too many people who do nothing about bitch on others' styles, that's what I think there are too many of. If you don't like what's out there, don't waste our time & bandwidth whining about it - go out & create what /you'd/ like to see. Be part of the solution.

 

Fair enough, I was wondering if you thought I was arguing against Kim's opinions, when I wasn't. As I later stated, what I meant by 'that stupid quote' was that I find any gender stereotypes stupid in this day and age, as I would hope we've got past this whole "Girls things" and "Boys things" barrier.

Exactly, I entirely agree with that statement- if you dont like something, dont waste time whining and bitching about it- do your own thing to counteract. Its sad when people just spend their lives going "I dont like this, this and this" but do nothing to show what they like. People are all entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, but it seems people nowadays just seem to prefer to sit, bitch and moan.

 

thank you

 

Okay, guys, this little tangent, while a fascinating look at marketing of BL comics, has gotten everyone way off track the actual topic of the thread. I think it's been great background, but it's time to move on. Please bring the discussion back to the original question, having to do with dolls. Thanks!

 

I think once something becomes saturated in any art-plateau, it starts to become "too much" to the viewers. People start to think "Oh, another emotionally scarred/god-fallen-to-earth/cross-dressing/mute/very sweet/very naughty/etc doll." it's because of the limitless possibilities in this hobby to make whatever you want, and the fact that, while the boards seem massive at times, we are still a pretty small majority when it comes to hobbyists as a whole.

So when you have, say, a total of 11,370 active members and roughly... oh, imagine 37% of them have some angsty/cross-dressing/hopelessly doomed romantic couples, that's about 4207 members with similar ideas. I don't know if it's really "too much" but it can be overwhelming at times. People positively flock to the idea of something exciting and out of the ordinary happening-- that's why fantasy books can be so popular. So anything dramatic is going to have an appeal-- and we can make these characters ourselves in the dolls we chose.

 

I am new here... and I have seen a LOT of pics... and many have similar elements... but the blushing, face-ups, colors and care that has gone in to certain beloved dolls... weather punk, GLBT, goth or steampunk... you can see it. It carries through. Remember... the velveteen rabbit didn't become real because he was a rabbit in a world of stuffed bears... he did so because he was loved... and it is that care that seems to bring dolls "to life" even despite them in trendy threads or home made pajamas.

 

Meh, fads are fads, I dress my dolls kind of like I dress myself. However the heck I want to.
I am, however, being dragged into steampunk for whatever reason by a few friends. I refuse to dress my dolls that way, or dress that way myself, but have had plenty of drawings turning steampunk after being heckled by one person or another. My boy doll is a Tranny, but it's more of an accident that he enjoyed than an intentional thing.

 

It's not that I mind the overdone, but rather the fact that so many of these cliches are also so poorly done. They're not subtle, the characters don't feel real or multidimentional at all, and they're all very similar. There are many photostories of cute tinies picking flowers or eating sweets or something, and although it may be common it's not brash and forced. Something like "rainbow clad skirt boi is raped, beaten, and forced into prostitution as a child, and continues to be a prostitute on his own as an adult and has an incestuous relationship with his twin brother, and does self-harm, etc..." Each element of that is so distinct, shocking, outlandish, and done by itself with subtlety and creativity could actually be really interesting, but the fact that they just crammed as many angsty things into one story just makes it extremely boring to read or hear about to almost anyone but fellow angsty skirtboi authors. Each outlandish element takes away depth from the character instead of making them deeper as the author had intended, and soon they become nothing more than a walking bundle of stereotypes and cliches. Angsty gay vampire prostitute incestuous skirtbois are the Mary-Sues of the doll world. Even though they aren't as common as everyone thinks, they stand out so much and are so similar to each other that it seems like they cover 99.99% of doll stories. It's just so odd to me. In a hobby that's otherwise about creativity and individuality, why are those traits not utilized more often in the doll stories?

 

When my doll wears leather he ain't goth, he ain't punk, he ain't into fetish. He wears glasses too, and a 'Canada' t-shirt, so he is a sexy patriotic nerd.

 

Ah, this lament crosses over into all creative work. There are trends, people follow them, artists play to them (for different reasons), other artists do contortions to NOT play into them, the mercenary types sell the trend & attempt to keep it alive, on & on & on.
It certainly can get boring - but as long as well-realized creative efforts keep showing up its fine. If nothing NEW seems to be appearing it's very annoying, but as some wise person said, if that's the case make YOUR creative effort original/cutting edge/beyond divine

 

I put my (male, I guess) doll in dresses because I don't have a female doll to put in dresses, and I don't plan on getting a female doll, lol. Although the doll's body is male, I really don't consider my doll male, more...agender (bi-gender? I dunno)? It makes it more versatile, so I can make my doll male or female, a male warrior or a high-class lady. I can make it whatever I want it to be.

I guess it helps that the body I have my doll on is very androgynous, and I don't have a set character for my doll. XD

 

I'm ok with whatever other people do to their dolls and with their dolls.
I don't have many male dolls but they all wear male clothing. My females don't always wear clothing considered to be female, though.

 

I agere with all the things you said that have been done to death. That, and Lolita-dolls (kawaii desu desu)-dolls (all named something with kyo, neko, chan or san). And that thing with two different eye colors.. Im tired of it. I am not trying to offend anyone, just my two cents.

But people can do whatever they want with their dolls, I just won't follow, comment or care about those things I guess. Im sure there are people who feel the same about my dolls.

 

I see the most annoying results from reactionaries-- when people specifically go out of their way to buck a trend, only to come up with an incredibly boring result that simply isn't the novelty they think it is. They end up with the opposite effect they were going for. For example, sorry, but dressing your doll in Walmart-styled clothes is just not that revolutionary. If your Muse is pulling on you to make traumatized bisexual lolita vampire elf boys in rainbow skirts, then screw the naysaying Walmart crowds & follow that Muse. Make the best traumatized bisexual lolita vampire elf boy in a rainbow skirt that you can.

Yes. The point is not whether or not something has been done before-- the point is whether or not it has been done by YOU before.

 

I don't really see it as overdone, but I do see some tastelessly done. There are lots of unique spins on even the most mundane things, and some really horrible renditions of what could otherwise be an amazing idea.

 

I agree with the "overdone vs poorly done." Poorly done stuff like this is overdone, and it's very rare to see it done well. So, right now, I'd call it overdone, because I just can't seem to find stuff like this done in a tasteful way.

 

Okay, so I haven't read many of the comments here, but... I find it kind of really offensive, as a gay woman, that the OP here calls homosexual pairings "overdone," then compares having a doll be gay to dressing them in punk fashions. That's pretty gross. Do you also think het pairings are "overdone"? Oh wait, no, because that's the "default." Nasty.

Re: drag and whatnot, no, I don't think it's overdone, really.

 

I do see a lot of the same style themes done with dolls, but I've also seen plenty of 'normal' dolls too.
I just think that the dolls in drag and ect just pop out more.
Personally Im not too bothered by doll trends. There is really only so much you can do to have a unique doll these days. And they're made to be what we want them to be.

I think the reason some dolls have more 'taboo' themes is because they're dolls and not real. They don't have to conform with society and people can go crazy with them, lol.