Too many? (Dolls in drag, / relationships, etc)

This so much. What's the point of complaining just because a bunch of people happen to be putting out something that isn't your "IT" thing. That's exactly why we have back buttons on the internet, and search functions.

 

I don't really think there can ever truly be 'too much' of things like a certain 'look' or 'style' and I certainly don't think that sexuality can be 'overdone'. I know that burnout and boredom can happen--that's why every once in a while I drop off the face of DoA for like a month or two. Or I take a break between watching seasons of a show. And I don't watch my favorite movie every day of the year.

I understand that people want to see their own tastes reflected in others. I know it's exciting to see a style you like done really well and know that someone else likes what you do. And to some people the whole 'gay' or 'drag' thing may seem overdone. But as someone who grew up surrounded by heterosexual imagery and was pressured to engage in heteronormative behavior, I am extremely glad to finally see my tastes represented. And it bothers me slightly that there are so many outlets for people who prefer 'normal' heterosexual behavior and narrowly defined gender roles, yet these people will complain when a particular fandom or hobby has a lot of shippers who like slash, or boy dolls who wear dresses.

I see plenty of people in this hobby and in other fandoms who aren't into gay boys/girls or cross dressing, and I think their time would be better spent trying to bond with others who feel as they do. It seems like that would be more productive than complaining about the fact that other people are doing what makes them happy.

 

Hmm, intriguing!

It *does* seem that what is considered the norm is reversed in this hobby. That's not to say that it's wrong per say. Much of this hobby seems to me to be made up of sub divisions of pre existing groups and cultures, and that inevitably leads to diversion from typical western ideals. On a personal level I find that my interest in such dolls - cross dressing, gay - has become more subject to the character than to the over arching theme.

I find it tedious when people give their character one or two traits only, which acts as a gaudy advertising board for an over blown ideal. This can occur in dolls of any orientation or style of dress. I feel that you should not have to be so in-your-face with one trait to define a personality, there should be more depth to it than that. This however is ultimately a personal preference, as I find that over exposure on a superficial, stereotypical level can damage the public image of any group.

I do however ultimately agree with the 'it's their money and their doll' motto. But a thread full of only that sends any debate to the depths of 2 dimensional oblivion.

 

You actually said that they were likely to be obsessive and obnoxious (or something to that effect). That's what bothered me. I don't care whether you personally like something or not, but I don't like the assumptions being made about the hobbyist in question. So what if they're interested in Japan? That doesn't automatically mean they're annoying people by nature -- 'usually' and 'very likely' might not be always, but it suggests that you've probably decided on which side that person falls on by how they style their dolls. It doesn't follow that liking dolls in frilly dresses or giving them Japanese names (which is a very common thing to do anyway) means that person is likely to be an annoying obsessive freak. It's not a matter of whether you like the way the doll is styled or not, but rather you making negative assumptions about the owner's personality based on their doll.

No not at all, I meant the attitude you seemed to be displaying in your post in this thread. I was responding to the way you said you interpreted people's doll choices. It might not be anything that you would express elsewhere, but since you said it here, people are free to comment.

Topics like this are tough, because on one hand people have the right to like or not like whatever and that's absolutely fine. Yet, on the flip side some of the things people say when given an opportunity to gripe about it (and just to be extra clear I'm talking in general here) are rather unfortunate to say the least. It boggles my mind a little that such a topic would even come up to begin with seeing how DoA is such a big place and the hobby is generally used for personal creativity rather than pleasing an audience.

 

I think people notice certain things and start to find it annoying for some reason. Personally, I don't care what other people are doing with their dolls. If everyone on DoA chose to put their boys in dresses, I wouldn't care.

However... I don't really notice these trends. I haven't seen a boy in a dress for AGES. Maybe I'm just managing to skip over them in the Galleries??? Or maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to it.

{Hmmm... actually, the last time I saw a boy in a dress, it was one of MY boys in a dress. And that was the ONLY time I had a boy in a dress and I've been on DoA since 2004}

I know it happens--boys in dresses--but I just don't seem to really take note of it, I guess.

M/M relationships... I don't notice 'em either. OK... I have a pair of dolls who are a couple, but not in a major way--like me spamming photos everywhere. So, is that a trend? If I go by the possible 10%--it's not excessive that out of the number of male dolls that I have that one or two might be gay.

I'm being a little ingenuous here. I know there are a fair amount of m/m relationships among dolls, but really, what does it matter? If people want to play with their dolls that way, it's their business.

So... there is no such thing as Too Many... unless they are your own dolls and you think it's a problem, anyway.

 

Much like the entire hobby, I think it's a matter of preference. And, frankly, whether or not a particular fashion is popular in the moment is really inconsequential. The only toll it may take on myself is making it easier to purchase things of that particular fashion.
I like what I like.

That said, I have never viewed a particular trend (clothing style, dolly pairing, or otherwise) as overdone. If that person likes it it's frankly none of my business.

 

I dress up my doll in a home sewn shirt and shorts and have friends comment on how I don't treat my doll right, I buy a cute frilly dress so my doll looks nice enough to be on display during a party and have my friends comment on how to style is over done. I dress up my new doll in sweats to match her character and my friends are telling me that I have no style, I tell them to shut up then I go and make new friends. I'm tired of trying to please others.

 

I think part of the negativity of "too much X" comes from the fact that the majority of collectors are artistic people, and even if you aren't expressing yourself through the dolls is still encouraged, and I've found a lot of the time we like to try to stand out from the crowd- to be different. But when we're all trying to be different, we start to look the same and we no longer stand out as much. I'm not saying everyone is striving to be a special snowflake, but there are some out there. I tend to find that the people that say things like "there's too many of X style dolls!" are the same kind of people that do try to be snowflakes, or at least care more about standing out than others. And from a viewer's perspective, it's just boring if everything looks similar.

I'm not typically bothered much by what trends and such I see a lot of. At most I'll choose not to get a certain sculpt or dress a doll a certain way, but I'm not going to get vocal about it. Personally, femmy El's aren't my thing- so I just won't get one, it's totally fine if you like and want one though. Most of the time I just ignore what I don't like. The only time it gets frustrating to see too much of x is when there isn't enough of anything else to look at, but that happens oh so rarely. And lately I'm not seeing many similar styles or common trends at all lately. Perhaps I've been unconciously avoiding them? I don't know.

I agree with april's bolded statement above.

 

I actually do agree with the opening poster on some of the things mentioned, there is an abundance of certain types of dolls nowadays and that's all well and good, my main issue is the characters often seem shallow, without much depth or a personal back story to show their own struggle and acceptance of themselves.
That may be nit picking a bit much, but every person i've known who has gone through the out of the closet period in their life didn't just suddenly pop up and go "Ok this is how it is!" and that was that.
It's an extremely emotional time for most people going through it and i feel like honestly that aspect isn't given enough credit when it comes to making these characters. On that same note i notice the same thing in most media depictions but that's a bit off topic for this thread.

As for trends in the fashion aspect. While there may be more than there used to be, i still feel the range is fairly limited. If i go into the gallery for instance, i'm almost guaranteed to click onto something i feel like i've already seen a thousand times. It's pretty much why i don't spend any time in the gallery.
I don't really see this as the hobbyists all following trends though. People are busy and with a lot of people they just don't have the time to sew the wardrobes they might want, if you don't want them sitting around naked then what are you left with? Buying it, and the range is either very small, or very expensive for the unique stuff out there.

The other side of that however, is companies may just not want to take that risk into branching into other styles. From a business standpoint it makes sense if there is a limited or non existent market for your idea. It's a gamble to start it off on your own because the market just might not be there to get it off the ground.

As for the ones in drag bit, i've learned to just try not to comment on them anymore, if you say "oh she's pretty!" and it's not a she people get in a bit of a huff about it.
Though my honest opinion is, if your boy is dressed in a frilly pink dress with a long flowing curly wig and cutesy style face-up you really shouldn't be offended when someone mistakes it for a girl. You can't expect every person who looks at your dolls to research the doll you posted about to see if you left a snippet somewhere declaring it's real gender.
For me, if i click onto something i find dull or boring or overdone, i don't comment on it. I just hit the back button and move on to something more appealing.

And a note to the more aggressive/heated posters. The opening poster obviously didn't mean people shouldn't do what they want with their own creations or that anyone should do more of this thing or that thing, or lumping real life personal choices together with fashion (for most people the dolls are characters, they are not real people with feelings to be hurt) but was rather seeking public opinion on something they were curious about.
At the end of the day this is a thread on the internet that does not warrant the level of hostility i've seen so far.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't mean you're entitled to lash out at people and twist words in a way they obviously were not intended. i feel some of the posts so far are just flat out belittling others when the opening post is fairly harmless.

 

You have issues with people not having deep enough backstory for their toys? Really? We are playing with dolls here for goodness sake! Dolls! You want realism? Watch a documentary.
What about those with no backstory at all? They must annoy the hell out of you.
I have a friend who's dolls are as deep as:
"This is X. He likes to play the guitar."
It would be rather silly of me to say to her,
"Do you have any idea how hard it is to learn to play the guitar? The hours you spend practising with your fingers bleeding!"

Personally I am tired of seeing all gay themed movies to be about how hard it is to come out. It seems to always be about this issue. That is why I love Doctor Who and Torchwood. There they just go,
"I like you!"
"I like you too!"
*intense snogging*
No one cares! It is nice to get away from all the irl sheit every once and awhile. Maybe others are like that too? They just want to see some hot guy/guy or girl/girl go "Oh, yeah! Spank that monkey!" No angst, no drama.

There was hardly any angst at all when I came out. There is no drama when I come out to people now either. Even my WoW guild knows about it.
Guild member 1: "Hey Zundhar, that is an awesome looking sword! You want it?"
Guild member 2: "He wont want it. It doesn't match his outfit."
Me: "Oh, you guys! You know me all too well!"
This conversation actually happened. They were not making fun of me btw. I have even gone as far as matching my pet to my outfit. Of course this is stereotyping, we are just having some light hearted fun with it and I am not saying all gay guys are like me.

I keep hearing people mentioning this and I have yet to witness it happening. I know I don't care when people mistake my doll boys for girls. I just correct them and sometimes not even that.

This is a debate thread. It is bound to get a little heated. Too much for you (general you) to handle? There are other more suitable threads for you.

 

Too many dolls in drag? More like not enough dolls in drag! XD

Joking aside, it's a matter of perception and opinion. If ya don't like it? Click the "Close Window" button. Sooooo easy....

 

I do think that the subject has been done to death. In my opinion, it seems like a trending topic now... for some reason, when I look at photostories, I tend to see less hetero pairings, almost as if its unpopular now. Religious beliefs aside, it does seem to be gaining ground. Someone before said that you could compare it to normal things being done to death but the thing is, drag, homosexual pairings, etc... aren't part of the norm. It has always been part of the minority group but for some reason, I see in this hobby it seems to becoming the majority. Well, I guess that's it. I concur. My thoughts on the matter.

 

Any minority concept can become a majority one if enough people with similar tastes gather in one area. If the BJD hobby attracts people who like concepts like drag and/or homosexual pairings then it makes sense that it would become more 'normal' in that sort of setting.

 

I almost never go into the galleries to be honest, but I do get the impression from the backstories in the database and styles most often displayed in picture request, and similar parts of the forum that certain themes are more popular with hobbyists (homosexuality, punk, lolita, vampires, mythical creatures, elves, rape, fantasy worlds, etc. etc). I make no judgement on this, as I'm somewhat guilty of attempting to incorporate some of this into my own doll work early on, but these days I'm all about trying to discover the things that appeal to me- and only me- regardless of what everyone else is doing. I get bored- I won't lie, it's pretty rare for me to find something that I think is truly original and creative in someone else's dolls- or even my own at times, but when I do find it it renews all my passion for the hobby. It's beautiful! And better yet, it came from this messy hodgepodge of repeated ideas. So I guess what I'm saying is that we all have the capacity to interpret things in wholly original ways, particularly when we aim to explore our own creativity. It's okay if you can't come up with anything more than a punk vampire dude with a boyfriend, maybe that's the extent of your creativity. It doesn't hurt anyone, and who knows- maybe that will spark something truly unusual.

 

Ye Gods, someone finally hit the nail on the head. THIS. Sorry- I had to quote it, it's EXACTLY right.

 

Nihmo It's so much the toys aspect of it, as the characters themselves.
Dolls that have no back story don't bother me at all (most of mine pretty much don't have personalities or back stories) it's their possession to do with as they please. My issue was more with people making light of something that is usually serious for real people.
It is considerably different from playing the guitar.
And i don't find the debate section to be "too much" i actually love it most of the time. What i don't like (though it seems to have been completely missed) is people dumping all over other people when there isn't any reason to do so. You can passionately argue a point without treating others like dirt. I don't take anything online seriously or get offended by it, it is hard to take offense to strangers you don't know and don't know you.

Though i will agree with you on the fact it is nice to get away from drama, and just watch things that are more laid back and fun.

HoushiChan I think you put it a bit better than i did, your post pretty much sums up my feelings on most of it.

 

This is exactly my point. It is nice to get away from that seriousness sometimes for some people and for others they simply want to have fun with what they find attractive.

I don't have any issues with it and I am gay. I am not saying that my past has been completely drama free. The opposite really. But my outing was not hard for me. Not hard to make the decision or figure it out. The reactions I got after was a f-ing mess however.
So it is nice for me to just get to see hot guys together and forget the hurt for a moment. I have several lesbian couples as well, not just guys.
But I sure wished I got to see more romance instead of sex though. Such a sucker for romance!

And about the guitar, I was using that to show that there is almost always so much more to things than what you see but sometimes you just want the end result. My friend simply wants to see a guy who looks good with a guitar. People who make same sex couples might just make them because they think they look good together.

If I where treated differently or without respect as a person I would be pissed as hell. But when people are just playing with their dolls, not so much.

I am not saying it is wrong of you to think this way though. I am glad there are people like you out there who cares.
Cheers! ^^

 

If we were all offering up our doll pics and character profiles for commercial consumption then I think there would be fair grounds to complain about the over abundance of goths and same sex couples, Albino Vampires and the fact that the extremely rare condition of Heterochromia Iridum seems to be the norm among BJD dolls, but this is just private individuals enjoying their hobby. I don't think the fact that you offer up your photos for the gallery should necessarily mean that you have to make the most unique doll imaginable and avoid every cliche because it's been done to death.

I know many DOA members would probably argue that if you are going to post your doll photos in the gallery (I never have btw) that you have an obligation to entertain or amaze the viewer but I sort of disagree with that notion. People are having fun with their dolls and are proud of their efforts and just post pics to get a reaction surely? Unless they ask for critique, then I don't mind that every third pic is of what a teenage girl who hasn't really gotten out much fondly imagines a Transvestite would wear (hypothetical teenage girl you understand), as long as they are enjoying their dolls they have no obligation to please me and my viewing whims.

At the same time it doesn't matter that my only male doll will eventually have one green and one blue eye, he's based on a long standing character of mine and changing him now just because lots of other people had the same idea seems ridiculous to me. It's central to the storyline that revolves around him. Yes, he has a story and quite an extensive character profile as do most of my dolls/characters, but it's not necessary to have any character at all for your BJD if it means nothing to you.

Many people in this hobby are very young and just discovering their own personalities and where they fit in the world, it would be awful if they felt they couldn't explore all of that through their dolls just because they are taking their first steps down a well trodden path. It's like the old Lou Reed song:

"you keep hangin' round me
and I'm not so glad you found me
You're still doing things that I gave up years ago"

That maybe, but it's still all new to them surely?

 

Ok so shoot me! I have a few BJD's all boys.
None of them have a background story...they are dolls.
I have several so they keep each other company!

Looking through so many pictures of everyone elses dolls inspires me, somtimes yes you see the same old styles.
Ocasionally something will leap out and grab you if it is done fantasticly well, but mostly its just nice to see your dolls siblings in diffrent familys.

Everybody has diffrent ideas on what their toys are or what they want them to be. At the end of the day they are a reflection of your self, of who we would like to be or a facett of our personality hidden inside us fighting to get out.

(I know this beacuse I eate one of them this morning for breakfast!) lol

This is the part you think.."just the one"

Sometimes we see something we like and want to be a part of it, We are pack animals by nature and to emulate or to aspire to something is a good thing.

You can't always walk around in real life dressed as a corsetted up woman all the time or a leather cladd cross dresser, it's not always approprate to wander around in nipple tassles and a tiara. but my dolls can
if I want them too...

 

Personally, I'm finding it cool that people are doing so much with their dolls and aren't afraid of "community judgement" of their ideas, growing character concepts (it may start with something small and simple related to another hobby), growing skills, or even working out some of their own issues and internal concerns through the dolls. (Which may or may not be happening with some of the story lines that others may see as "triggers" .)

For example, I originally had a pretty high "cringe factor" regarding dolls with scars or disabilities... a blind character made me feel SAD. (though I've also gotten to a point where I don't automatically see pupilless eyes as "blind") In part perhaps, since I'm dealing with adjusting to my own life with scars and disability. Weirdly though, even though I haven't done, and don't feel a need to do a doll with scars or a severe disability, I think other people's stories where eventually the doll seems to have a relatively normal life Despite Everything has HELPED me deal. (yeah I do have to change a lot of what I can do, or when I can do it, but I'll be OK... )

If I was younger when I found this hobby, some of the story lines that are "trauma triggers" for me now, (and that I can easily avoid) might be exactly the sorts of stories I'd need to make and share to deal with the traumas I was dealing with. And SOMETIMES a Cigar is just a Cigar, or a Character needs something to set off "run away from home and join the circus" to get their own story/adventure moving.

Is part of what makes _Harry Potter_ such a moving story is that he isn't just some kid living with his parents in the burbs, but that he's an unwanted orphan, with a closet for a bedroom with his relatives and their totally spoiled kid... The door to the magical world doesn't open from a life with little trauma, but for a kid who feels separated from normal life... and doesn't everyone feel alone in the world sometimes? It's that gap between "alone in a family that will never love/accept me" to "Wizard school where not only Harry is accepted, but is adored as a hero-to-be, and will eventually come to be loved just as himself" is such a powerful theme.

And I see SO much overlap with so many of my other hobbies and social groups. (ie: dressed up one of my boys as Dr. Who and introduced him to the local "Time Lords" group where he was a HUGE hit. Heck, I don't think I have any hobbies or fandoms that *don't* have an overlap with the doll fandom or doll people... )





Is it maybe more likely that doll hobby overlaps so many other things? Would it be remotely possible that it's perfectly OK for there to be maybe a particular draw toward "yaoi" fans (or even people with "yaoi" lives even if only marginally) and doll fandom?

There's SO much going on within the Dollyverse, that it's very easy to find people who love the same motifs, and it's also very easy to avoid anything that we find boring, or even icky, and NEVER have to actually say anything about it. I don't have to say "Oh poor guy is in a dress, you'll give him a complex" unless I'm joking with a good friend. IF I REALLY felt that way and it would make someone feel sad or excluded, I'd just keep my mouth shut and babble about the cute little girl in the super frilly dress, or the little boy with the cutest bow tie.


Likewise, I have a few friends (via various fandoms) who are younger than my own kid, but are developing their own art skills, they draw, paint, do face ups, sew, etc, all adequately well, considering the age and access to actual art training for the various age groups. I look at the drawing by a 12 year old, and judge it as a drawing/photo story, etc by a 12 year old... I see how much time is going into it and how the skills are growing. I look at the 16 yr old's work as being the 16 yr old's work...

or a 30 yr old who has NEVER thought of herself as an artist, who is just now picking up a sketch book and a "how to draw" book, or learning how to draw from life for the first time... I'm not going to look at her drawings or paintings like I would a 25 yr old who just finished art school. I might say "eventually you'll need to take Life Drawing and Anatomy" but I'd NEVER say "Learn to draw", or "Your work is horrible you should just quit"... I could, even with the newest newbie, find SOMETHING to say "hey you do X rather well for the amount of training you've had."

Isn't a large part of what we ALL love about these dolls is that they're so customizable? That we don't get "Barbie tm" with an established character type, but rather we can "build" the doll ourselves from the basic dolls, develop a character from nearly nothing, change their eyes, their hair, their faces, modify them in a million ways?

So go ahead, tell YOUR own stories, derivative or not... eventually they'll develop and diverge and become something new an different as time goes by.