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Too many? (Dolls in drag, / relationships, etc)

Aug 16, 2008

    1. The post I objected to didn't even mention "yaoi doll fad in which you can tell the person's just jumping the bandwagon for fun"... it said "I am kind of sick of seeing it everyone's doll having a gay relationship". It didn't establish which kind of gayness was so boring & overdone (and yes, I meant the concept of "which kind of gayness" to sound as ludicrous as it does).

      So I'm afraid it's not Hyper-PC-Oversensitivity happening here, brightfires. It's a matter of people really not thinking about how they sound when they say things, and assume we'll know "what they really mean". They don't bother to unpack the loaded statements as you have done, i.e. by NOT clarifying that they don't mean homosexuality (or people of color, or goths, or what have you) in general. It's normally unintentional, when I see it-- it's often preceded by 'I don't want to offend anyone, but __'. But just because it may be unintentional is no excuse for people not to pay some attention to the way their statements may sound to others in the audience.

      I once brought up a nearly parallel objection about a certain post's insensitivity to dark-skinned people... and later I received a thank-you PM from somebody whose feelings had actually been hurt by the post in question. Just because you don't read that "too many gay relationships" statement as referring to homosexuals IRL doesn't mean that someone out there isn't reading that & thinking "Gee, people are tired of having to look at gays acting out & happy, just like Bill O'Reilly said!" and feeling hurt by it. So, some of you can keep swallowing the veiled and/or unintentional phobias if you like, and you can keep calling it P.C. if you like, but some of us will keep calling Foul as we see 'em.
       
    2. What BF said. *nod*

      I've been RPing yaoi for seven years. I'm not a big anime fan, but I have seen enough yaoi anime and manga. Between the anime fandom, roleplaying, pixel dolling, even Simming (female-to-male hair meshes, lip-glossed, blushed male Sims, all-male legacy families) I've gotten my fair share of girly men everywhere I go.

      As far as the WORLD goes, yeah, gay dolls are definitely a minority. But when you get into the very narrow groups of your particularly hobbies, that gap gets a lot smaller, especially when you've been in that hobby for a long time.

      That said, I do agree that gay dolls aren't a fad, especially when yaoi/slash/whatever is as widespread across so many hobbies as it is. But it is a facet that I hate. Like someone else said, there's nothing wrong with quietly gay dolls, but when the fact that they're gay is all you have to say about them (not to mention their angsty backstory that includes prostitution and abuse) and they proclaim their sexuality in all of its pink, miniskirt-ed, heavily-made-up glory, then the eyerolling sets in. That sort of, "Omg, my dollie is gay and that makes him CUTE!" is what smacks of people following fads to me. Nowadays, I just avoid GD and the gallery all together so I don't end up grinding down my teeth in fits of rage. But yes, that's the sort of thing that, to me, is overdone and tired. AND it's just plain poor characterization.

      But yeah. People can do what they and be as happy about it as bugs in rugs. I'll be looking elsewhere.
       
    3. I think I have to agree here. The abused, angst ridden, hyper-sexualized young gay boy dolls really just don't appeal to me and I admit, I'd like to see some more casual, real guy boys, gay/straight/bi whatever, in contrast. I have nothing against the people that love these characters, I just plan to not bother looking at them. I only rarely go to the gallery now because of it. But in that sense, it doesn't bother me because I'm not looking at it.
       
    4. Oh, bull. You know good and well that the OP wasn't going on about being sick of gay people. In this context it shouldn't be required for us to "unpack the loaded statements". The intent is obvious. Being oh-so-hurt or offended because the words "gay" and "too many" are listed in the same sentance IN THE CONTEXT OF DOLLS AND THEIR FICTIONAL RELATIONSHIPS just reeks of someone who's looking for something... anything... to be Outraged(tm) about.

      Sorry for being so blunt about it, but people "calling foul" on the grounds it's offensive every time this subject comes up is getting tiresome.
       
    5. With that being said....
      Yeah, some fads get annoying fast. But I don't look at things I don't like. So I am good. Yeah I like steam punk I have for a long time, more so in novel/art form. But if people find it boring or overdone that's their thing.
      All I wish is that there was a whole lot more variety of clothes that is easily accessible, and more variety in styles of characters or images portrayed.
       
    6. One of the "fads" under discussion is the current taste for making male doll characters gay, Kaiser-Serena. While it would be a shame for that one particular facet of the discussion to be the only one addressed, it's impossible to deny that it exists and a little silly to pretend that it isn't just as much a trend as Gothic Lolita outfits.
       
    7. And actually, what my issue with isn't completely that the dolls are gay, it's the trend to have them be dressed up as prostitutes or hyper-hyper-feminine that I'm more growing tired of. Whether or not that has to do with anything else, it's just something that's seemed to be really popular amongst some doll owners that isn't to my taste.

      I do believe the owners that make these dolls generally enjoy the kind of RP scenario that they set up with their dolls, though. They may be getting caught up with the whole "fad" in the sense that so many people seem to be doing it, but I don't think that's the only reason they're doing it.
       
    8. Exactly. There are going to be posers in any fad (which, to me, is part of how you tell that it's a fad).
      Used to be there were well-thought-out gay dolls, and a handful of ones which seemed to be gay just to be gay. And then it went from being about having that be just a part of a complex character, to 95% be 'to be cool.'

      Just like in the punk movement it started out meaning something and got to be someone slapping safety pins on a skirt, or the same for the goth thing. ANY fad, you're going to get people who are actually *in* whatever is behind it, and people who just do it when others are looking, and don't take much time on it.

      So what do we do if BJDs themselves become fads? Those of us discussing here will likely be the ones that will have been deep in the trenches, but there will come along those who get a cheap doll and don't do anything with it when nobody asks about it. It'll be just to say 'Oh yes, I totally have one!' just like any other fad. No, the homosexual doll bit itself is not a fad-but it is the WAY it is done that makes it a fad. How many homosexuals do you know that ACTUALLY were prostitutes/have tons of lovers/are also gross-dressers/make that the utter center of their world?

      I'm rather tired of the gay dolls being taken like a really cheap boy's love novel, and want to see the fad for that go away a bit more. Gimme dolls that just happen to be gay any day. (And lesbians! Severely under-represented).
       
    9. I don't deny that it's not important but I don't want the thread to be merged:

      Of course not - but this is a more general statement indicating that if the thread doesn't become a "debate" it will be merged with one of the several other threads that deal with homosexual dolls, cross-dressing, goth, etc.. Sorry if that was worded confusingly. Carry on. from the mod.

      I think the topic is fun to debate but if this one topic debate keeps going on there's not going to be much left. I wasn't trying to compare the two with each other. I just am not very good at English.
       
    10. But remember, these dolls are meant to be characters made up by the owners for the sake of fantasy. Expecting owners to project the hum-hum reality of actual gay people on their dolls is a little far fetched.

      If your doll is going to be an "elf", it's going to have the pointy ears, full regalia outfit and long flowing hair, they'll be graceful and elegant, beautiful and ethereal. We have no way to know what "real" elves are like so we accept that as a projection of a fantasy. As far as all the straight girls with gay dolls, it's the same thing. Projection of a fantasy world. It isn't about real gay people.

      I certainly have no basis from which to judge people on how to project their fantasy world onto their dolls.

      And actually, I have known gay men that fit your "prostitutes/have tons of lovers/are also cross-dressers/make that the utter center of their world" and they are indeed rare. But the fact they they exist at all makes within bounds for any person to make into their own character. I have one in my crew, my crew doesn't co-habitate in the same realm as the 4.2 billion others on the board, so in my world, he's still rare.

      Does that make me a fad follower? I sure don't feel like one.
       
    11. I'm... Not at all sure why you're comparing gay humans to a fantasy creature. We know that gay people exist. They-gasp!-are like everybody else. What I think is faddish about this is setting up almost all of the male gay relationships like a porn manga.

      It is EXACTLY the same as the 'bisexual' fad that's come about in probably the last ten years, that I've already mentioned. It's no different and absolutely no better than a girl who gropes another for a MySpace picture, but would never even hold hands with one in a quiet place. Yes, that is a FAD-and as soon as it loses the shock value, it will no longer be oh so cool to do.

      Frankly, I can't wait for the 'fad' of completely one-dimensional, "LOOK AT ME!!!" people go away and find deeper characters for their dolls. It is just as much of a fad as when people get into one anime because it's sooo popular, buy all the wall scrolls and, um... Whatever else they buy (not into anime myself) and then when it's dubbed 'childish' they move on to the next one, in exactly the same fashion. Once outlandishly gay dolls become 'childish' and 'last season,' as it were, they will move onto something else. I think that it doesn't help that a lot of people who do it feel like if they put up that magical blue heart next to their posts, it will automatically gain them viewers-which just proves that it's a fad, to me.

      If your doll has nothing going on for it besides "he's gay," then you need to look at how crummy your storytelling is that you have to rely on that for a crutch. And when the next fad hits, will you latch onto that?
       
    12. I don't think anyone has said that a few "real-world" examples don't exist... But seeing a few thousand of them, one after the other, lined up like bowling pins? That's where it gets silly. That and when it becomes the expectation for certain sculpts, to the point that having a doll who doesn't match those criteria becomes so atypical as to have people question its owner's honesty when they say "No. He isn't." >_<

      Maybe it's just something I've seen more often than the average, being the owner of one of the only six straight Els on the planet, but 75% of the gay guys I know aren't cross-dressing sex-fiends with a history of prostitution and abuse. That seems to be the "assumed default" for doll characters, though.
       
    13. I happen to rather like cheap boy's love novels. And bad BL manga. It brings me all sorts of joy. I refuse to be ashamed of or nor longer participate in the enjoyment of it simply because it's not someone's idea of well written deep literature. You're sick of gay rent boys, I'm sick of people who try to be cool by hating gay rent boys. That's become a fad in and of itself.

      I also don't understand why people after complaining about too many gay male dolls being gay for the sake of being gay then complain that we need more lesbians for the sake of having more lesbians. It's the same thing.

      Everything has fads and if you don't like them, don't participate in them. Nowhere is it written that this hobby has to be well thought out, high brow entertainment bent on provoking deep discussions of the human condition. Doll owning is not an originality contest to me and I don't get why it is to so many people.
       
    14. I've decided to change this answer because this might've been the first post I ever made here, and didn't have anything near to a firm understanding of the BJD hobby. Quotes from me until my next post were from the old post, and I sound extremely ignorant of what the BJD hobby was about and what it encompassed.

      I still think that gay-paired dolls are very common, but I don't have that feeling I did in the beginning of being "overwhelmed" by it. I've gotten a chance to really understand the hobby, and my own dolls, and I've started to know just how many different kinds of dolls and characters there really are here.
       
    15. Because at the point that someone is projecting their personal fantasy characters onto an object it has nothing to do with reality. Objects become objectified. They are all equally "fantasy" creatures as they are not real people, they are dolls, they are not meant to reflect the lives of real gay people.

      (And yes, as a gay person with a gay parter living and working in the gay capital's gay getto, I do know that gay people exist. :roll: And PS, the "bisexaul fad" will always be noticed by anyone of college age, it's not new. True in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and now.)

      There has been an overwhelming percentage of gay boy dollies in this hobby for several years. I can't consider it a fad, it's practicly a part of the BJD institution. Now, anthro dolls I can see as a fad. The trend in giant realistic looking boys I can see as a fad. Not so much the gay boy dolls.

      You really need to look around some more. I don't know what you mean by "regular" but if you mean some boy doll with a short boy wig in jeans... there's a ton of them too.
       
    16. Whoops, maybe I should have mention my roughly 150 BL manga. I do enjoy reading it and looking at the pretty art-but because I can choose it. If I HAD to pick it, I would never read it. I only do read it every so often, as something different. If that was the majority, I would rather puke on them than read them. It's any time that that is the FIRST thing that someone says about their doll that it's, frankly, getting sickening.

      Also, I suppose it was hard to tell: the lesbian thing was a joke. Though I WOULD like to see more girl/girl pairings, but not for the sake of girl/girl.

      And I stand by what I said earlier: If you're asked to describe your doll and one of the first three things out of your mouth is the word "gay," then perhaps you should think hard about the doll's character. Most gay people I know would never be the ones that you'd peg as such, and would not mention that as one of the first things about themselves. It's not something that I would mention first thing about myself. It IS a fad, just like the bisexual thing-which, as has been mentioned now, is a long-lasting one but still a fad. Heck, smoking is a 'fad' to me-people at a certain point think it's cool and pick it up, and it's still around. It's because of that 'faddish' behavior ("Look, it looks cool! If I do that, I'll look cool!"). Fads can last a long time, and can still be very stupid to look at once the fad has passed.

      (Oh, and in case anyone's thinking I'm an old fogey or something... I'm a 22 year old, who is sick of seeing really, really stupid, flashy fads in my peers. To me, the entire definition of a fad is if you do it when you're around others 90% or so, and if you tend to amp it up when you want more attention. Your threads not being hit much? Smack together two boy dolls and add that blue heart-that'll draw in hits! Instead of actually trying, you're relying on the fad.)

      Edit: Geeze, never mentioned to get so into this topic. Bottom line: A fad, to me, is something that you do for attention and just because it's 'there' and 'cool.' I'm betting at least 70% of the gay dolls are gay for that reason, just like the whole abuse/rape background was really, REALLY 'in' before the mods hacked it down. A fad is a fad, and I'm betting that if yaoi and BL was not SOOOOOO totally in right now like woah then we would not have nearly so many gay dolls. If octopus (octopi?) got to be really in, every other doll would have a shirt with one, or have a plush one. For now, every other boy doll has a boyfriend. It is the must-have accessory right now. A

      And now, I go to bed.
       
    17. As other have mentioned up-thread, I don't think the "fad" is so much a matter of simply having characters that are gay. Those will be around as long as these dolls are, I suspect. It's specific "templates", for lack of a better word.

      Last year it was very fem boys on modified female bodies (Preferably Woosoos, with Morbidolls face-ups.) Before that it was winged half-angel/half-demon ex-prostitutes. These days it's cross-dressers with body jewelry...

      Yes, they're fantasy projections that have nothing to do with day-to-day reality... but when so MANY people apparently have exactly the same fantasy, something other than simple internal taste is going on.
       
    18. I think, intrinsically, people value uniqueness. We may have trends that turn into fads after 5-10 years, but we still will value the uniqueness of things. I think thats how trends start. They start with the rich people, I suppose the reason being to separate themselves from the "others". Eventually, the "others" catch on and they end up being common, or trends. Eventually, we see something that used to be unique, or "only for the super rich, and super glam", as dull and generic. Then, when something new pops up, we go for that, to try to get back that intrinsic desire to be unique. I think thats how you get "slaves to fashion". It doesn't matter if it doesn't look good on you, as long as you look "unique".
       
    19. I certainly see styles come and go in the BJD world and I don't care for many of them. I find it pretty easy to ignore them once they get past the News pages though, so it doesn't bother me. I look for things I like and I take advantage of the moments when my tastes match the current trends. I am more than happy to see styles I like have a popularity explosion because that means more shopping choices. If it were my day job, I'd have to suck it up and participate in the trends to stay current whether or not I had any personal interest. This is my hobby, so I take from it what pleases me and don't make time for the rest of it.

      I think that there will always be new people "jumping on the bandwagon" of certain trends not because they want the attention, but because they have finally found something commercially available that appeals to them. The fact that these same people are often young, inexperienced, and developed most of their social skills on the internet is really a separate issue from the dolls. I would expect most of the people who characterize their dolls as "Gay" in a very stereotypical way to fall into this category. It's not really their fault, they're just sheltered. Or perhaps they're not curious or observant and simply don't feel the need to make their characters more complex.

      I have to say that when introduced to Den of Angels I was thrilled and amazed to see so many hundreds of people who had created characters of their own that they wanted to see in doll form because other than my girlfriend I just didn't know anyone else who did that kind of thing. I wouldn't regard the fact that most dolls posted on DoA have character backstories as a fad, just the nature of the hobby. I wouldn't regard crossdressing dolls or homosexual dolls as a fad, because homosexuals are pretty much everywhere I would care to be and I consider it desireable. Zombies, vampires and cat dolls, sure. That's the kind of thing that many people are going to feel inspired to try because they have perhaps thought they'd like to make their own version of a classic monster and maybe they feel a little competitive or they like the idea of a big virtual pile of kittens or something.

      I am puzzled as to why this sort of complaint crops up repeatedly, but I'm guessing that it's just a matter of the OP wanting to test the waters and find others of like mind? Is the complaint about the perceived lack of originality or is it a complaint about the "morality" behind the particular trend? I'm pretty sure I'd get shot down fast if I complained about the annoying number of heterosexual dolls promoting overpopulation and the subsequent destruction of the environment, but I don't actually care how many people on DoA share my opinion.
       
    20. I think it does have some standing as a "test the waters" issue. If it were me asking this, it'd be for that purpose - just to see if I should say my piece. If more people didn't think as I did, then I'd be scared to share, since I'd have to defend myself to the death, or face being branded as some "bad" person. But I'm glad we have both views being expressed.

      And, I really don't think morals have anything to do with it - they're just dolls, anyway. What morals do dolls follow? And, to me at least, it's not an anti-gay thing. I am not anti-gay. After all, THEY'RE DOLLS. "Gay" dolls are acutally intriguing; they defy the typical Barbie/Ken stereotype we associate with them. And, even though I'm a straight female, I'd like to see more f/f pairings, too, since you don't see those too often, and it'd be interresting to see where people took it.

      But I tend to see the same types of "gay" male dolls. Can't homosexual oriented dolls not dress in punk clothes, a lot of black, and wear eyeliner? Can't they not look like girls, but actual, masculine guys? Does this sort of stereotype exist a lot in the BJD world because it's how you to say a doll's "gay" without saying it, verbally? No one has to ask when they see a guy doll, who looks like a girl, if he's gay or bi, since it's kind of a given. I mean, yeah, a word can have many different meanings, but with this trend, you're only seeing one meaning all the time.

      I also like the idea of vampire dolls (but that was before I knew they were pretty common, since if I had my way, I'd make one to look like my favorite Anne Rice vamp...); but I'd still make one. And cat ears (I think most will agree) look cute on anyone. I never even thought of an elf doll, but after seeing one that looked SO cute, I thought of making one of those. For these three things, it was a totally aesthetic features that drew me to them. For the cats, it was the ears; that goes also for the elves. I've even thought to make "Link" from Zelda since his outfit's so cute.

      For a friend of mine, though, the reason why she had once thought to make a male doll that dressed in the "gay" doll stereotype is because she thought it was hot, and that I think is the root of my confusion on why there are so many. Is it like the cliche'd lesbians are to straight males, or something else?