1. It has come to the attention of forum staff that Dollshe Craft has ceased communications with dealers and customers, has failed to provide promised refunds for the excessive waits, and now has wait times surpassing 5 years in some cases. Forum staff are also concerned as there are claims being put forth that Dollshe plans to close down their doll making company. Due to the instability of the company, the lack of communication, the lack of promised refunds, and the wait times now surpassing 5 years, we strongly urge members to research the current state of this company very carefully and thoroughly before deciding to place an order. For more information please see the Dollshe waiting room. Do not assume this cannot happen to you or that your order will be different.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dollshe Craft and all dolls created by Dollshe, including any dolls created under his new or future companies, including Club Coco BJD are now banned from Den of Angels. Dollshe and the sculptor may not advertise his products on this forum. Sales may not be discussed, no news threads may be posted regarding new releases. This ban does not impact any dolls by Dollshe ordered by November 8, 2023. Any dolls ordered after November 8, 2023, regardless of the date the sculpt was released, are banned from this forum as are any dolls released under his new or future companies including but not limited to Club Coco BJD. This ban does not apply to other company dolls cast by Dollshe as part of a casting agreement between him and the actual sculpt or company and those dolls may still be discussed on the forum. Please come to Ask the Moderators if you have any questions.
    Dismiss Notice

Too many? (Dolls in drag, / relationships, etc)

Aug 16, 2008

    1. Perhaps the ordinary gay boy dolls aren't showing up on your radar because you are making assumptions about their orientation based on their appearance? I actually wouldn't assume a boy doll in a dress was depicting a gay or bi character, I would just assume the owner wanted to put his or her doll in a dress.
       
    2. I'm surprised to see myself sticking up for glitter skirt boys because I am not a fan myself... but I disagree that people make their characters gay just for the sake of getting attention. Yaoi/slash/etc is very popular now... I don't mean "people like it because it's popular", I mean "it's popular right now because people like it." Having any kind of homosexuality displayed in an "acceptable" mainstream media is still pretty new... and like teenagers getting into their parents' liquor cabinet for the first time, people are going a little overboard. It doesn't mean that their enthusiasm is insincere.

      Yaoi and yuri aren't accurate... but they're not Chick Tracts either. I'm a believer in the thought that people become acclimated to things (for better or worse) through exposure. I'm not going to sing the praises of skanky manga or boy dolls in dresses, but I will say that maybe something positive will come from it when people mature, settle in, and start looking to reality to learn more.

      Whenever I get tired of seeing flamboyant dolls, I remind myself of this. You say it so well. There may be 6 million crossdressing boi dolls, but people can still be excited about the one that belongs to them because that one is independent of all the others.

      I thought last year was zombie gore mods, ditzy Chiwoos, and crossdressing MiniFee Shiwoos.... ;) Or am I stuck in 2006?
       
    3. And here we are with THAT idea again... The suspicion that any complaint about these carbon-copy gay charaters that DoA is drowning in must somehow translate into the tell-tale whiff of latent homophobia. :|

      My own issue with them isn't a moral one. Though I am a little "old fashioned" about public displays of sexuality in general, I couldn't care less what someone's orientation happens to be. Gay, straight, whatever. It doesn't matter. I'm an equal-opportunity prude.

      I'm just a little weary of opening the Gallery page or a database thread and seeing the same two or three "it" caricatures over and over and over again...
       
    4. Zombies were 2006... but ditzy Chiwoos and MNF Shiwoo skirt-boys are perennial. *_*
       
    5. If it was for comedic reasons, cool; ok. But otherwise, I'd just be thrown off by it. I guess it could stem from how I see dolls. I suppose I'm just a traditionalist when it comes to the small plastic variety.
       
    6. I don't really feel like sniffing around in my fun hobby for something unpleasant that I encounter in real life on a daily basis. I just find that the debates that involve more "serious" topics tend to become ranty soapboxes while a debate about an actual style fad doesn't because it's just about appearances. So when something like "gay" - a topic that's bound to have people in opposite camps for moral reasons - gets thrown into a discussion about trends in the hobby I have to wonder what the OPs intention was as there are plenty of other obvious fads that don't incite so much ire.
       
    7. Only in fandom can stereotypes become the reality.

      I still get funny looks at meet-ups when I mention my Shiwoo is gay, but just so happens to like wearing conservative clothing and he abhors any colour lighter than dark blue and red (white and black don't count!).


      Well, for one, I'd think some of the ire could be from the very people these dolls are portraying. I'm sure there are a few gay men who might be sick of seeing little girls (and grown women) essentially mock them. albeit unwittingly. I remember being very annoyed for a while when the tan doll craze had been in full swing, suddenly everyone was an expert on urban/African/Caribbean culture because they'd seen a movie once. I recall someone posting pictures of their Aaron in an appalling tracksuit with some...interesting fabric used to depict his hair, and the first thing I thought was, "Have you ever seen a black person?"
       

    8. But I don't think anyone's even mentioned their feelings about actual people being gay. It only deals with this on a doll basis, and nothing more. And I think that's what everyone on this thread's trying to do - make it for a doll POV, and not from any religious or political views of real individuals.


      I bet you could ask anyone posting on this thread, and they'll say it's only about dolls.
       
    9. Of course it's only about dolls, but what people chose to do with and say about their dolls does reflect on who they are. That's the whole point of this fad idea, isn't it? People follow doll trends for myriad personal reasons, so saying one is tired of it isn't going to make it stop. The reason is perfectly valid (and possibly even new and groundbreaking!) to the individual. Certainly debate threads on DoA are going to be about dolls, but they are also going to give readers some insight into the character of the owners. Otherwise why would everyone swarm all over this subforum like it was a tabloid?
       

    10. I disagree. It seems like you're implying that "character of the owner" means they have anti-gay feelings. Sure, it is a hot topic, but it takes a different form when it's about dolls than it is when it's about real people. I don't know about everyone else, but I've never seen - in real life - guys in drag, or gay men in tight, leather outfits - even though they exist; and that's totally fine. But if that's all you see around you, you're naturally going to find things dull and have a "been done" attitude. And it doesn't stop at the topic of gay. It goes for everything under the sun. That's how we get our stereotypes. Some people think of ALL Doll collectors (of BJDs) as creepy freaks, and stay away. The reason for that is because they stumble onto a few videos of gay male dolls dressed like they're ready for S&M, and seeing a lot of those in one setting gives people the wrong idea about every BJD owner. They just happened to stumble onto an owner's page who likes to dress their dolls that way. People have bad experiences, and they come away misled.

      But, even with real gay people, you don't always see most of them dressing in drag, and in tight, black outfits. Even among the homosexual culture, there're so many differences. We're all different as people, so why are we seeing so much of the same thing as our dolls are concerned? So far, all I've been seeing is one area of the "Homosexual Doll Culture" that seems to be the "standard". This is the reason why we have this thread. It's getting to be old. We're tired of the same old representation of the homosexual male in these dolls. No one is trying to say that the creativity in anyone is "wrong", "shameful", or anything like that. I've felt this stereotypical version of gay males was getting boring even before I joined DoA, and I would've really liked to see something new. It seems like every idea for the same stereotype's been done dozens of times over.
       
    11. Never too many really...if you don't want to look, you just don't look. :)

      Unless the dolls are knocking on your window, or surrounding your bed in the middle of the night, they really aren't harassing your eyes in any particular way.

      I got no crossdressers, but I do have a bunch of gay folks. An evil wizard, a construct, a beautiful swordsman, a bloodthirsty Duke, a royal guardsman (bi), an artist, and a thief(bi).

      David says crossdressing gaybois have easy souls to harvest for his spells...easy to lure into his dark tower with candy.
       
    12. I don't look. But I try looking for something new, and I just can't find anything
       
    13. At first I have no idea how this is debatable cause practically everybody is just stating what they feel about this and that without coming up a solution for the problem.

      Personally, I'm a super fan of yaoi and manga so I don't have anything against with gay/homosexuality/slash or anything that falls in that category. So it doesn't really hurt or offend me when I see pictures of dolls wearing pink mini-skirts doing kinky stuff with another gay doll. I mean everybody has the power to do whatever they want with their dolls because it's their dolls anyway. But I can also relate to other people who get sick of this kind of way that some owners are doing with their dolls, and because of its increasing number in the doll-world it's starting to become a trend/fad. I personally get tired of seeing the same old thing too over and over again and so that's what keeps me away from the gallery most of the time cause I don't have any control with what everybody wants for their dolls.

      There are two worlds fighting against each other right now.
      The haters vs. the hated.
      (Please don't base it there, I just can't come up with a better word. ^^;;)

      People are different from each other and they change. There are times that I like this category and then want something new. Or if I don't like this specific category, I still respect the creativity that was invested in that and try be appreciative. But you can't always expect people to be like that specially if they encounter the same thing over and over again. So what I propose as a solution for this problem is to make a separate thread for different categories. This way, owners can avoid colliding with each other. But if this is not easy to establish then I suggest that people who are posting in the gallery should be kind enough to post a warning on their titles saying this is gay and this is straight..etc. By doing this, people can avoid what they don't like and can browse in the gallery with conveniency.

      It's 2:00am right now and I'm so sleepy, so I hope I made sense even though I feel like I didn't. But I'm pretty sure that this is the only way to solve this. I do believe that majority of the people here are doing what they like not because it's a trend or a fad, but because they like it so I'm positive that doing a separate thread for all categories would be necessary. Bare with me if I'm not making sense again and if there is something wrong with my post, feel free to fire me with missiles and flames. *sleepy sleepy*
       
    14. kiskalla perfectly described what I've been thinking for quite some time now. It's not so much as "too many diverse dolls" as it is "too many stereotypes projected by white heterosexual cisgendered folks" (and I'm quite curious as to what that Aaron's hair really was). There are actually plenty of LGBT individuals out there who won't read/view works created by straight people, simply because the latter's take on "fantasy" does come off as objectification and ridicule. It ceases to amaze me when basic consideration for people of different backgrounds is dismissed as "PC" by a privileged group.

      No self-respecting intersexed or transgendered person refers to themself a "hermaphrodite," "it," or whatever disparaging term used to describe people who don't fit into to the gender/sex binary. I also remembered the thread about tan dolls, in which people made it clear that their dislike for dark skin applied to real life as well. And just like JennyNemesis, I received a thankful PM from a member regarding my posts in different [locked] thread because she felt marginalized by the amount of anti-PoC sentiments there. Keeping up with the "gay" fad and the aforementioned "tan" fad, there's the ever-present "Asian" fad and "my doll has a black wig and some floral print clothing, it's sooo Japanese" mentality. I think that kind of thing is different in the sense that it's no longer just subculture du jour experimentation, and goes into that territory of making a pigeonholing fad out of actual social and/or ethnic cultures.

      I got a lot of "Y U SO SRS" and "JUST A DOLL" remarks the last time I talked about this (in a debate forum, no less), so it's rather odd and refreshing to see a few people share the same mindset. Trends and inspirations don't happen in a vacuum, and I think real-life experiences (or lack there of) do affect the complexities behind a doll's customization or backstory no matter how much some owners insist that it's just a hunk of resin. That excuse has been used to shut down/detract from valid discussion one too many times. And no, this does not mean that I plan to defenestrate dolls I don't like or something along those lines. It just means that expression and reception are not a one-way street.
       
      • x 1
    15. Not sure how much I'm actually contributing but...

      I like yaoi. Hell, I write yaoi and I don't even like the supposed 'trend', but it's not going to stop me from liking what I like or doing what I do. It's also not going to stop the person next to me from doing it either, no matter their tastes or what what anyone else does or does not like. This is the point where we deal like adults if we want to participate on a public forum with many walks and trends.

      I feel a lot of the problem is assumptions. Everyone with a gay dolls seems to be 'lumped' into the category of flamboyant, cross-dressing, glitter skirtbois. Also, every skirtboi is assumed to be gay. My 'gay' dolls aren't cross-dressers or skirtbois and my only skirt boy, [who IS a MNF Shiwoo], doesn't even have a gender and isn't capable of sex. I also don't expect anyone to actually take the time out to learn this, so they'll be lumped.

      I don't like being lumped into the yaoi trend category or the sub-factions there of, but I'm not begrudging anyone because they don't like the category and inadvertently, my dolls. I don't like a lot of what people do with their dolls or the assumed rational behind it, but I don't begrudge them either. I'm not them, I don't know their reasons. Like with my own stuff, there could be a hell of a lot more lying under the surface of theirs that I'm not even taking into account. This is true of any 'trend' floating around; lolita, zombie, glitter-gay-elf-skirtboi, whatever.

      I'll also agree with armeleia on the whole: "it's popular right now because people like it" not "people like it because it's popular".
       
    16. I would have to say, despite having my own little homosexual resin baby, constantly seeing the same thing over and over gets dull. It's all sort of repetitive, and in this respect it feels like it's too much. Now, and this may be slightly off-topic, something that would NOT be repetitive is seeing a gender-switched straight couple. That seems rather fun.

      I digress. It feels like a trend, though I can't exactly say i wished for it to stop, so much as I wished people went about it in a different way.
       
    17. I did notice that if humanity was like dolls, there would be very little reproduction due to the amount of homosexuality heehee, but not really.. People are free to do what they like, it's their property after all.

      I'm trying to make my Luna unique, but until funds roll in, she's pretty bland!
       
    18. I couldn't agree more, though it's not a matter of bothering me in the sense it's disturbing, it's just annoying and boring. Like hearing some super cheesy, pop-song you might have liked the first couple times you heard it, but after it's played ad nauseum on the radio it's like nails on a chalkboard and you groan every time it comes on. The contest to see who's doll can have the most tragic background is extremely lame.

      That's what this whole sexually abused, angst ridden, hyper-sexualized young gay boy cross-dressing dolls (that are most likely a vampire in their as well) has become.
       

    19. You know, I've also noticed that a great number of dolls do have background stories involving tragic family, personal, and/or love lives. The thing is when I'm trying to devise a background for my own dolls, it's also hard not to sway towards the tragic side because that's what's moving. Tragedy inflicts the stronger emotions and I'm not saying that I'm moved by the 1000 emo dollie stories on DoA, but in general I do think people are inherently attracted to tragedy, whether it's in their own experience or by fantasy. Again that goes back to what I'm saying that it just has to be done well for others to really appreciate it; angst and whatnot, which isn't too often.
       
    20. I just have to add my two cents here, because i know i darn well have a tendancy towards giving my characters strange, odd, somehow tragic backstories. I've realized i for one have a really hard time staying interested in "normal" situations and characters with "normal" lives. Tragic backstories, crappy homelife, abusing families, dead parents, that sort of thing adds both drama and a bit of interest for me, both because i have none of it myself and frankly i find stories rather boring that are about completely normal people in completely normal situations. If we were talking books, i wouldnt be the one to pick up a book about some girl in high school dealing with normal high school problems, i'd be the one to pick up the book about some girl in high school who just found out she's a changling faery and the fae court wants her dead or something.

      Of course, that pokes into a whole new can of worms and "too many's". For instance, i find that there are too many angsty elven princes. I mean hey, first off, where are the princesses, and why are the princes so angsty? Oh, wait, their mom hates them or has died and they've been either banished or ran away from their kingdom to avoid getting killed.
      --Please note, i'm not complaining here, as i've got an angsty elven prince myself XD; Also a princess, but thats besides the point.


      My point is cliches are cliche, and i'm not meaning that in the "emo kid is emo" sort of way ^.~ The way i've always felt about it is sure, there'll be a lot of similar things in the genre, like the fantasy race royalty, or vampires in general, or girly boys or homosexual relationships, but if you wanna do it, go for it, no one's stopping you. However, especially if you're diving into a well explored area of cliches, your best bet is to try to make it more interesting. I forget where i read it, but somewhere someone said something liek if you're gonna use cliche's in your story, do what you can to make them work. Make it stand out =]

      tl;dr: If you wanna use "overdone" things in your characters, their backstories, their style, whatever, make sur eyou arent doing it for gallery views or popularity, but because you like it. And if you wanna be popular for it? Make sure its different and interesting too ^.~



      long post is long @_@ If i got offtopic, i'm sorry ><;