1. It has come to the attention of forum staff that Dollshe Craft has ceased communications with dealers and customers, has failed to provide promised refunds for the excessive waits, and now has wait times surpassing 5 years in some cases. Forum staff are also concerned as there are claims being put forth that Dollshe plans to close down their doll making company. Due to the instability of the company, the lack of communication, the lack of promised refunds, and the wait times now surpassing 5 years, we strongly urge members to research the current state of this company very carefully and thoroughly before deciding to place an order. For more information please see the Dollshe waiting room. Do not assume this cannot happen to you or that your order will be different.
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Trying to Understand the BJD Industry

Mar 25, 2011

    1. Carmella, I don't like or dislike resin, I like the sculpts at Iplehouse, but am afraid to buy from them now. Their website just seems flaky. What kind of company shuts down a virtual store to move their office? What kind of company would have hardly anything to sell? It's tax return and annual bonus time, don't they know people have money to spend? Yes, I am assuming they want to make money.

      The dolls just happen to be made of resin, honestly they might as well be plastic to me, because I do not see the difference. I am not advocating a large manufacturer without a soul. I think that a large company could work with Asian artists, taking care of the manufacturing, and leaving the creativity up to the artist. Dolls could still be made in small lots, but the company would use ISO Standards (International Standards of Operation) which would lead to a more consistent product at a lower cost to the the consumer.

      A small group of business people could easily facilitate this, and yes Western BJD artists could also start having a voice.
       
    2. I'm saying for me. I would not buy dolls with a North American aesthetic (fashion doll, baby doll, or NA comic book), regardless of anyone else's thoughts on the matter.

      Are we really talking about consistent quality here? I think Iplehouse's quality is consistent. Their tan resins may vary slightly, but I don't think their NS or RS particularly does. It may not be to your taste, which is fine, but their quality is steady. Also, artists in cottage industries can't throw pots or paint pictures or sculpt identical items over and over again. That's what's wonderful about handmade items, IMO: the individuality of pieces and signs of real effort and creativity.

      This has not been my experience. The skin of Dolfie Dreams, for example, does not look quite the same or photograph the same as a resin doll's. And the moment they are not made of resin, they are not the kind of doll being discussed on this forum (with some vinyl exceptions here for special reasons, like Dolfie Dreams). I love the look and feel of polyurethane resin, personally, but there are whole collecting hobbies for other kinds of dolls out there with people who love those other materials, too.

      If you're referring to my comment on US chains in Japan, it's the US companies that don't adjust for Japanese culture in that example. Japanese buyers are very used to adjusting to cultural differences every time they go to a movie, buy a mac-something, go to the GAP. Like in Canada, it's often DOMESTIC products that are labelled as different (there are J-pop sections in CD stores), while the US products are just there. Just for clarity.

      What is quality and what is acceptable is going to vary by owner, but current BJD company business practices work for the vast majority of BJD owners, and these dolls have been made this way since the hobby came into being over a decade ago. So while you're absolutely free to be dissatisfied with how things are done, you're probably not going to hear a lot of agreement on this forum.
       
    3. Polyurethane resin is a kind of plastic. Just sayin'


      ETA:
      In America maybe. But not every country has the same system. We certainly don't get tax returns as a blanket thing in the UK like you seem too in the US so I'm guessing Asian countries may not either. They might not even be aware of that fact because it's not part of their culture, I certainly didn't know that it is.
       
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    4. And if they want to order from iplehouse, they'll probably hang onto that money until things settle down over there. They're just moving, not going away forever. I know I at least would rather wait until they move and get settled in rather then have them try to cast, paint, and ship while also dealing with the general chaos of moving. It just seems like a formula for otherwise-avoidable problems to crop up.
       
      • x 1
    5. You are comparing mass produced human clothing to resin dolls made in small batches. I think this constitutes and apples to oranges comparison. I have different expectations when it comes to clothing and dolls, because the materials and manufacturing processes are totally different.

      Sometimes stuff will come back in stock, sometimes it's just up as a record of what was offered, which can actually be useful too. As for moving, abjd companies are small. I know when you hear the word company it suggests some largish enterprise, but you're talking about a handful of people most of the time. If they're moving offices, then there probably isn't any body to deal with the rest of the business. Besides, I don't see why a minor delay due to something legitimate like moving is such an issue. Patience is a virtue.

      I don't mix dolly resin for a living, so I'm not going to comment. Some companies are better than others at consistent resin matching (Volks for instance is known for it's color consistency while for a long time the Luts Delfs where varying widely from batch to batch. I know that resin isn't easy to work with, but beyond that I can't really speculate. Out of genuine curiosity, do cast with polyurethane resin, and if so what is your experience with producing consistent colors? I'm not asking to be snarky -- there are people on the forum who have cast their own dolls before, so I don't know if you have or not.

      These are coming out of small businesses -- they are hand made not mass produced. In fact this type of resin does not lend itself well to mass production. When you have hand made items, there will be more little inconsistencies than in mass produced goods, however mass production can have it's own limitations. I'm also not seeing all the quality control blunders that you are -- sometimes a company really will screw something up, it happens from time to time, but in general abjds are very well made.

      Small companies with not enough staff to handle everything at once. I don't think this is the first time a company has taken some time off to move. As for tax time, you do realize that this is a Korean company, right? They aren't necessarily going to be on our schedule. Besides, just hold on to your tax refund money, and they'll be back.

      But different plastics (resin is a plastic too) have different qualities. Vinyl isn't a bad thing -- I have some vinyl dolls who I really like, and they have their pros. But so do resin dolls -- they can be easily sanded, sculpted onto, they are less prone to staining and have an overall different look and feel. I don't know how I would feel about a large company stepping in which would mean less control up to the artists. Besides, as I said before, these kinds of dolls do not lend themselves to mass production. You are buying an artist made doll, a hand made item -- I'm not sure why you're holding them up to mass produced items as a comparison. Personally I'd rather have hand made any day, despite the occasional quirks, because I love to see the artistry involved.

      I have nothing against Western bjds artists, however there are very few with sculpts that I like -- they tend to miss out on the aesthetics department for me. That's not a swipe at them, it's just my own preference. I and a goodly portion of other people were drawn to abjds because they look different than many Western dolls. The non Asian dolls that I do like tend to be artist dolls made by people from this community rather than Western fashion doll designers etc, who have decided to put out their own versions of abjds. Besides if they have the means to produce dolls, then why does it matter what the Asian folks are doing? Asian doll makers are not keeping Western doll makers from doing their thing.
       
    6. Well. I don't usually participate in debates as I avoid conflict like the plague lol, but I thought I would put my 2 cents in.

      I do understand to some degree what Hugo has said. Even for less expensive dolls, its still a significant amount we pay for them, despite how much enjoyment we get from them. The companies that sell to us want our money, otherwise they wouldn't bother - yes, there are some companies I'll never consider buying from, and at least 1 company I doubt I'll buy from again because of their reluctance to resolve a fairly simple problem, so I understand the "don't like it, don't buy it" idea, and agree with it. I also understand that due to the nature of these dolls, they cannot always be 100% on the spot, Jesus has come down from the mountains to hand me this divine gift perfect. However, I have seen cases of other people getting dolls that I would consider unsatisfactory, and it never fails that at least one or two people will say "Oh, well, you can't expect ____ to be perfect" or something of that nature, or they get the form response from the company that basically says the same thing.

      I've often wondered if we sometimes forget as a community (this isn't directed at anyone, so please put down your pitchforks and torches) that these are companies, businesses - they're not selling us dolls because they like us, they're not doing us a favor. They exist because some talented people got together and decided they loved sculpting and even loved dolls, and wouldn't it be great if they could make money doing something they loved? Many I have dealt with have been very polite and decent to work with, but I always remember they are doing this to make money, even if its a small company. I've seen a lot of things said that play to the tune of "we should be grateful they allow us to buy their dolls", and the companies would be blind if they didn't know that attitude existed in this hobby. Which should raise the question, do we or how often do we get taken advantage of for it? If something is off-color or a face-up is done poorly, are they passed on as acceptable because the companies feel they can get away with it, that we're just grateful to have it at all?

      I'm certainly not trying to vilify the companies - I've got dolls from 4 smaller companies that have been both good and bad to work with. Most experiences I have seen are good as well, and even several occasions where a company has bent over backwards to make things right and make us happy, but those occasional bad ones, where there is clearly something wrong with the doll/clothes/etc, I have to wonder what happened to get that item out the door to the buyer like that. I love the small imperfections that each doll has, because each and every one of us has them too - no living creature is perfect, and I think that's part of what makes these dolls so special and "alive" to us. But when I've seen some of the issues that people have had... er, those aren't quite the right kind of special :sweat
       
    7. Thanks for your patience everyone, I have learned a lot.

      TIMID: I understand now, yes I agree that fashion dolls, baby dolls, or NA comic books are unto themselves. Bless them.

      Here is what I understand now. Most people who like BJD see resin as holding an aesthetic value. I realize that DoA is about resin BJD, but I do not see a value over regular petroleum based plastic, or green plastic made of plant byproducts, which would have the same feel as resin, because they are pretty much the same thing. Plastic would not yellow and dolls could be brought into the light.

      I did not really understand the whole "Hobby" thing, but then again I don't follow anime. As I said I am an art collector, and Iplehouse and Elfdoll are my bets for appreciation as family heirlooms. My logic is that there is a upsurge in Asian art and BJD are a reasonably affordable alternative to Chinese Contemporary Art. For me this is not about making money in my life time, it about a great nephew or niece having something of value that could be sold in the case of an emergency. This is a strategy to hand down wealth without paying taxes.

      I agree that generally BJDs are well made. My point is that "generally well made" is a pretty low standard.
       
    8. Hugo, in all seriousness, I don't think these dolls should be regarded as heirlooms. Nobody really knows what they will be worth in future. Especially since engineering on joints will probably improve and there may also be changes in the resin itself. That means dolls that sell for a lot now may drop in value, and the drop could be substantial. Though I look on them as art, I don't think they are directly comparable to a painting which, after all, is one of a kind. The dolls can be customised, and made one of a kind, but they're a big risk as an investment. Sellers are pretty lucky if they get back what they paid for them right now on the MP. This is a buyer's market because of economic circumstances in many countries. An LE might be a better investment in the short term... but in ten years time or longer ... The future with this hobby is guess work. It's a young business, after all.
       
    9. I think resin is an ephemeral material but it is what we have to work with at the moment.

      If you want dolls to be family heirlooms, you are better off buying something made from porcelain, that really will stand the test of time. I also think that artist dolls more than 'company' dolls (even though all the companies employ or revolve around artists) will hold their value in the long run if you are looking for something special. However, artist castings are more likely to have little flaws and quirks than a company that can standardise the process. For example Dollshe Craft has standardised the colours they offer and the variations from batch to batch should be minimal.
       
    10. Unfortunately, no. :( I have non-BJD dolls that have yellowed. Standard Barbies, a few action figures.... even a My Little Pony. I wish it was not the case, but plastic =/= colour stability, no matter what type is used. The only difference seems to be the time it takes to yellow- some plastics take years, some kinds of resin (or resin without stabilisers, which BJD companies don't use any more) can yellow in a matter of weeks.

      There are companies that produce plastic dolls of a similar nature to BJDs. I have seen pictures of BJD sized fashion dolls which do cost less, but I can't name them because I don't really like the way they look. They might be a better avenue to follow if price is an issue and you do not personally like the texture and asthetic of resin.
       
    11. Plastics can vary a lot depending on what kind of plastic you're talking about. My vinyl dolls are one type, my resin dolls are another type. My model horses are yet a third type (and I think there is some variation there with different companies too). Some kinds of plastic -- I assume you're mostly talking vinyl as that's a common material for dolls, do not discolor in the sun (or at least not as quickly). But, they may have limitations when it comes to certain types of customizing procedures, and they do stain like crazy. There was a discussion in another thread about whether or not vinyl will last better over time than resin, and what it really comes down to is the type of care the dolls get. However, though bjds will discolor with sun exposure, this is usually not drastic (especially in NS dolls), and resin does not deteriorate in other ways that other plastics do. Remember that there are pros and cons to any material. Other types of plastics don't mean no maintenance or that damage won't occur. I have Pullips, and if you put the wrong kind of plastic shoes on them, their feet will get melty!

      Plenty of people aren't, actually. The hobby encompasses a lot of things -- especially a pretty big emphasis on customization and other creative activities such as photography, sewing etc. It tends to be hands on with a DIY streak, though of course you'll get people who just like shelf pieces too.

      Interesting. Aside from the light thing, bjds should hold up for you really well -- it's easy to fix small dings and scratchces (thanks to resin being easily sandable), it won't rot or deteriorate, and stain removal is usually pretty simple. HOWEVER, be wary about treating collectibles as a way of passing on wealth. Collectible markets (not just this one) tend to go up and down a lot, and there is no telling whether or not a particular doll will be sought after or valuable in the future. It's best to take them as they are -- beautiful artistic dolls that are lovely to look at and offer many opportunities for creativity rather than as an investment.

      It's not for what they are. If you are an art collector, you should be aware of the difference in receiving a hand made item from a studio rather than purchasing a mass produced piece of pottery or a poster. 'Generally' just allows for the fact that sometimes there's a screw up -- and when a company screws up, they should be expected to fix it. They shouldn't get a get out of jail free card just because they're artists. However, you also have to take the time to understand the media they are using, the process in which the dolls are made, the audience they are made for, and what those things offer before deciding that they just aren't good enough. I think you're only getting part of the picture.
       
    12. Perhaps this is more what you want to look at if you're thinking about heirlooms and art, though there are really no guarantees about future value. These are porcelain bjds:

      http://www.enchanteddoll.com/
       
    13. Withdrawing for now.
       

    14. I agree with this whole-heartedly. ( I'm also appalled by how inflammatory some of the forums long-standing members' posts were. Jesus. It's not like he told you that your precious dorrie was ugly.) We are paying for a product, we have a right to demand that product be as displayed--if not exactly, marginally close. If I ordered a normal-skin doll, and the colors were horrifically mismatching limb-by-limb, I would be raising Cain until my issue got resolved-- or never deal with the company again.
      This is not just a 'studio of artists making pretty things'. These are businesses. They should be held to a standard, and required to keep it. You might rail at us for our 'Western' viewpoint on this-- but the Americas are not the the only country with quality control. German manufacturers, for example, are far more strict and harsh on their production standards than any USA factory. It could be perfectly acceptable by government standards-- but if it doesn't reach the often ridiculously high quality control perimeters set by the company, it will NOT go into circulation. Volkswagon is a prime example of this.
       
    15. Mirren,

      Art investment is a talent not a science. I trust my eye and stand by my choices. Draw on your BJD, cut them up, glue feathers all over them, because my surviving dolls will then be worth more, even if they never fetch the same amount as a Steiff Bear. Who would have thought a teddy bear could fetch $62,000 Euros? http://most-expensive.net/teddy-bear

      Believe what you want Mirren, but I am in this to make money, something I know how to do.
       
    16. That... is a pretty aggressive sounding post, dude. :( Modifying a doll does not always mean lowering it's value.

      Edit: for clarification, good face-up artists can buy a doll (say a Volks) for $600, paint it and blush it, and sell it at auction to collectiors for double or even triple the original price. And these works of art hold their value, as we often see dolls being resold on Y!J for the same high prices. Customisation is not the destruction of art. I can be, if sone badly, but it isn't always.
       
      • x 1
    17. I wasn't going to get involved in the "debate" but that admission made me do it.
      You started a thread where your main attack is on a company you haven't even
      bought from?? Seriously???

      You have A LOT to learn about this hobby. And it's a hobby even if you look at it
      from a "collector" standpoint or not. IpleHouse, Soom, Volks (feel free to add in
      other companies!) have LIMITED EDITION DOLLS and even when their Order
      period is over and they are no longer available for purchase, THEY WILL be up
      on their site. So what!?! This is no reflection of bad business practices!!
      I basically view it as a doll makers portfolio. It's there to show customers what
      they have created. I would be surprised if your friend didn't have pictures of
      their creations, also showing items no longer made.

      As a customer in the US I appreciate that I can go to a BJD companies website and
      still be able to look at past dolls. If in fact they removed ALL their sold out LE dolls
      and only had up what was currently available you'd likely be here complaining about
      how few dolls they have...what's wrong with them...are they lazy? That seems to be
      the attitude you have, sorry. Many basic dolls or items will be occasionally marked
      as sold out and often be re-stocked. It's a common practice everywhere. Even in
      the US. Except for those rare instances where those in the hobby have relationships
      with doll makers/companies, most of us don't understand how an individual company
      runs things, but they all have a system of doing things... you obviously haven't been
      on the forum long enough to see how many companies have ended because of
      bad business practices or just not knowing how to keep old customers and attract
      new ones........and you haven't seen some companies who have managed to pull
      themselves back together and get things running again.
      To compare the running of a big BJD company with how your friend runs her
      pottery business is a bad example. Resin isn't a glaze. As others have pointed out it
      is very fickle. You also CANNOT compare ABJD's with paintings!!!!!! :o
      Perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

      Also, if IYO a company is LOSING money because they are running it poorly.....
      again merely your opinion, by moving and choosing to mark items as Sold Out in
      order to prevent new orders that then cannot be fulfilled in a timely manner which
      would then likely upset many people resulting in angry e-mails and posts in their
      Q&A which then the workers would need to answer one by one with an apology
      and explanation *takes a deep breath*.....then, yes, you don't understand the
      hobby or how ABJD companies "work".

      There are many things that are NOT viewed as OK:
      Broken dolls. Missing parts. Parts that don't fit. (add in your own examples!!) And
      dolls that never arrive. People do complain when these things happen, and results
      vary depending on the company.
      But for the most part no company is allowed to "get away with murder". Oh, and
      outfits that DON'T FIT. Something I recently learned about.
      Apparently a doll company CAN'T make a doll outfit incorrectly but I, despite having
      had over 20 ABJD's CAN be too stupid to understand how to dress a doll. Nice right?
      TY FL and everyone for that ;)

      To end this post on this ridiculous "debate" I will say only this: If you don't like it,
      DON'T BUY IT. Nobody is forcing you. If you cannot understand and accept things in
      the hobby that are known, accepted and viewed as minor things then you probably
      shouldn't be in the hobby, as a casual or serious collector. You never even brought
      up the often long wait times!!!!

      I'm sorry if anything I said sounded like an attack, it wasn't my intention. We were
      all NEW to these dolls at some point, and we had to learn things...I just don't see
      anywhere in your OP or later, where you want to "understand"...it seems like you
      made up your mind and want to convince us that we're being foolish......
      and I don't agree.

      edit: wait...you're buying these dolls to make money? Then why even join this forum?
      People here enjoy their dolls, they don't buy LE's out from under others just to
      keep them stored in boxes so that they can hike up the value in a few years!
      I'm sure you can find another forum where people cheer each other on for doing
      such things.
       
    18. I guess I just can't relate to the idea that "more money should = absolute perfection" because that's part of what I love about these dolls, they're handmade. I don't know the exact financial details, of course, but considering everything that goes into them, the price doesn't seem entirely unreasonable for the product I receive.

      Take the ring I just bought as an example. It's a simple sterling silver ring with a gold accent. It's not extremely complex, nor flashy, but it did cost way more than most would pay for a simple silver ring. It was made with sustainable metals by an individual artist. When I got it, I noticed it already had some scratches and some imperfections, but I was in love at the exact second I saw it. I could almost still see the artist's hands on it. I didn't message her in a huff because of the scratches, saying I am entitled to perfection just because I gave her money. Honestly, that reminds me too much of the bizarre thing in America where they say the customer is ALWAYS right because they give you money, and because the money exchanged they are entitled to treat you like crap and like a slave. Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to work retail knows exactly how that feels.

      I digress. I love my ring because of its imperfections. I could have gotten a ring from Kay's for a lot less money and it probably would have been higher quality. It also would have come with a warranty of some sort. But I opted for this because I'm happy to support a small company, warts and all.

      The same goes for BJDs. They are mostly small companies and you're bound to get imperfections. Resin matching issues? Well, my ring didn't look EXACTLY like the stock one she had photographed. Mine was made individually and because of that, the ring on my finger doesn't look just like the one in the photo. That's just how things work when they're made in small batches.

      And as for the tax return season thing, they may not work around that one time of the year like so many American stores and companies do.

      BJDs are small company creations usually from overseas. Expect language barriers, differences in how we perceive customers and customer service, long wait times because they don't have a hoard of sweatshop workers like the Gap probably does, so on and so forth. As for companies causing awful issues like Custom House's infamous wait time and then lowlow quality products that sometimes made it out, CCC's sudden disappearance into the mist, etc? That's unacceptable for any company. But less-shady issues like resin mismatching and long wait times are just part of the Asian ball-jointed doll game. I sympathize with your frustration, but you have to have a pretty considerable amount of patience when buying from smaller companies, especially when they're working with a tempermental (and dangerous) product like resin.

      Edit to add:
      ^^^And that.^^^
       
    19. Hugo, art like any investment is a gamble. Also, my comment above was actually well meant and not in any way meant to put you down. Your reaction therefore is a little odd.
       
    20. I think what a lot of people are not realizing is that these doll companies are not major companies such as Volkswagon. Plus, making a car (something you rely upon probably daily and that can kill you if it is defective) is not the same as making a doll (I really hope you don't do anything with your doll that could kill you).

      I sew for a living. Fabric I buy can be the exact same weave, company...everything, but the color will vary by lot. Anyone selling fabric off separate bolts will tell you that dye lots vary slightly. I'm sure it's even more difficult with resin to get the exact same shade each time, since resin is a good deal harder to work with than standard fabrics.

      Personally, I make soap and am in business with someone who makes perfume. We can mix batches the exact same way, in the exact same containers, with the exact same ratios, and the batches will turn out differently. If we had the resources of a large scale company and could make a huge batch of these things, there would be less variation. As it is small companies, like some of these doll companies, don't have the finances to make, say, 1,000 dolls. They make 100 at a time instead, and thus when they make their next batch it will be slightly different.

      A business should put out a quality product. But just because the product is slightly different (color, texture) does not mean it is an inferior product. If you get a doll that is several different colors, yes, by all means contact the company and I'm sure they will resolve it for you. But people seriously want to complain that a doll they bought yesterday isn't the same color as the one they bought a year ago? If you expect that, I doubt you'll be able to find a company other than Volks that meets your needs.