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Trying to Understand the BJD Industry

Mar 25, 2011

    1. But to make money, you have to take the time and effort to understand what it is you are collecting. It's pretty clear that you don't have a good understanding of the hobby or the dolls and how they're made. I'm not saying this to be nasty, but because it's clear that you're operating on some assumptions, plus you yourself admitted that you didn't know anything about the hobby itself. Understanding how the dolls are made and why will let you be able to keep your expectations reasonable and also know what you're getting. Understanding the hobby will let you understand the market for these dolls -- something that strikes me as important if you are seeing that as a money making venture.

      Also, in case you weren't aware, there are customizers out there who's work (remember that they are artists in their own right) will add hundreds of dollars to the current market price of the doll. And of course, badly done mods will lower the value. There are a lot that fall in between and are a matter of taste. These dolls are created with the intention that they will be changed by the owners -- that is one of their main functions and why resin is a great material to use (Volks started out making resin garage kits), and why standard dolls usually come blank, bald, and naked.

      Here's another example -- printing ink. The four process colors Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black vary from print shop to print shop meaning that a job printed in one place won't necessarily be the same colorwise as a job printed somewhere else. To get that kind of consistency you'd need to use something like Pantone colors.
       
    2. As a dealer for a small artist company, I have to disagree strongly with this. The idea that the doll company I work for makes any real money out of international sales is almost laughable. I have spent some time with the artist, and what he genuinely wants is for people to collect and enjoy his dolls. I can't speak for every doll company, but I can't accept that they are so different from this. I could name several companies which I think ARE just churning out any old product for a profit, but I definitely would not label Iplehouse this way.

      And speaking of quality; we always hear the worst of it, because this is the place it gets shared. People come here to ask for advice. But ultimately the doll companies will make good any mistakes.

      As a dealer for a small company, I get reject casts from time to time for my own personal collection. Most of the time I can't even see why they were rejected. So I absolutely cannot agree with the idea that BJDs are poor quality products.
       
    3. My first two dolls were Volks. A delightful company to deal with, through and through-- with standards, by God! But there are many companies that don't hold the same integrity in their work.
      I'm an artist myself; I work in the comic industry. Artists sometimes have bad days, which will effect their linework, inks, and colors. But personally, if I could not say that the pages I put out were some of my better work.. I wouldn't even dare send them off to a publisher. Expecting the people that pay you to accept less than your best is a shoddy practice, especially in a limited market during a recession.
       

    4. Aaaaah! Well that all makes much more sense- that you're in the hobby to make money, I mean. You see, I thought you were heading at it from the other way- from a more traditional doll owner's point of view. By which I mean someone who loves their dolls and wants to work on them and give them characters, that sort of thing.
      So, if I may ask, what do you hope to get out of dolls and being in the hobby? Do you aim to buy a doll and then sell it for a higher price somewhere along the line, or, as you say, leave it as a heirloom in the hopes it'll be worth something in the future? And if you have dolls now, what do you have them for?
      I suppose doll companies approach it from the traditional point of view- that dolls are customizable and fluid, as has been said. So they don't see them as needing to be perfect by how you define it, but perfect in their own eyes- which are two different things.

      Also, my previous posts were rather aggressive, which is unlike me, so I will apologise for them. Now that I see more where you are coming from the position has been made clearer. Though I will also add that perhaps the bjd hobby isn't for you, as dolls shouldn't be treated as investments because we cannot predict the future.
       
    5. First off, Iplehouse website is not 'flaky'. You cannot buy the sold out items. They're clearly marked as such. It is their site and if they want to use it as a gallery of sorts to show you what they've done in the past, why not? I enjoy looking at some of the old sold out limited editions of dolls and its pretty easy to find it right there under SID when I know its an SID doll.

      Secondly, they are telling you they are moving and it will take them awhile to catch up. I don't know how many people work for Iplehouse, but moving is expensive and maybe they can't afford to hire a whole new team just to keep the shop open for two months so you can buy your doll. Also there's a chance that in the moving things will get misplaced or broken and then they'd have to start all over. They're just making it easier on themselves and taking a break to keep the quality up, and easier on you by making you aware of the delays and possible issues.

      Several companies have ordering periods, in which you can only order their dolls at those certain times of the year. Yes it is inconvenient if you have to wait until that time comes around again, but that's how things are. American companies also take off for holidays. Well gosh, what if I want to shop on Christmas? Don't they know I have gotten money for the holiday and I want to spend it? The store down the road is closed right now for remodeling. The nerve. I don't care that its small and ownedand run by a local woman. I want to buy stuff now! I think people can have a little patience and let a company get settled and get things in order and maybe this whole move is to a bigger space so they can have better quality and more workers. Maybe this move will solve all the problems people have.

      Resin may be similar to plastic, but it is not the same. To you, yeah sure, its plastic, but if you've ever worked with or researched it, you'd know its not the same. I'd also like to reiterate these are small companies. They are not large companies and to work with a large company they would have to have a lot of money and make the dolls in batches the way the people who are making their own dolls and sending them out for casting. They haven't got the room to store all the extra parts and dolls if people aren't interested in buying the dolls they did make and there wouldn't be all the options of skin tone any longer that some companies offer.

      Also I'd like to touch on your complaints about consistency of colour while I'm at it. Have you ever made something and dyed it or had to mix in the colour? The tan is not a paint laid over top. It is a colour mixed in and sometimes dye doesn't take completely, or the pigments in that batch are weaker or a lot of different things could go wrong. And sometimes they do. And if you insist on comparing it to Tshirts, go to any store and look at the tags. I work at a department store and we get in a lot of shirts and jeans with disclaimers that the items are hand dyed so variations in colour or print are expected. Apparently we are ok with quality control getting lazy in our clothing as well then? Resin colours have long been an issue with companies. Dream of Doll also has trouble from batch to batch and Migidoll tends to have a new thread every ordering period for matching that years resin to bodies.

      And there are companies, some in America, that make ball joint dolls out of vinyl hard plastic. If you want that, you can have it. I'd rather have resin since the properties of it are more to my liking for modding. Plastic and resin have very different properties as is obvious from the yellowing in light and different reactions they have to some chemicals. Plastic also stains easier and is shinier. Carving, sanding, and painting does not take the same on plastic. Take a Barbie and a resin doll and try it yourself and you'll see the difference. For a hobby that is about the buyer's individual take on the doll, resin is a better choice as its closer to a baked clay.

      This isn't about anime. Its about dolls. Yes it overlaps with anime because the Asian aesthetic leans towards anime. A hobby is 'an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation: Her hobbies include stamp-collecting and woodcarving.' Doll collecting is your hobby. You may not see it that way, but it is.

      You can't have it both ways though. You say it is art you collect, but you demand mass produced rules. Barbies are cheaper and plentiful, if BJDs were everywhere and so easy to produce, your great niece or nephew would have a fairly worthless collection of giant dolls instead of an investment. I would think you more than anyone would want the companies to stay small and hand making them to keep their future inheritance worth money instead of lowering the value by demanding cheaper supplies and a flood of available items.
       
    6. This would be Dollfair. Things didn't work out so well there. ;)
       
    7. Piyoko, I enjoyed your post. Lots to think about.

      Bolded for emphasis.

      No one forces anyone buy resin BJD.

      Personally, I think he brought up anime in an attempt to compare doll collectors to some stereotype of Anime-obsessed otaku.
       
    8. I don't think it's any more acceptable or understandable knowing that his reasons for collecting
      these dolls is for profit. He's upset at companies for being inconsistent in their work because he
      then feels he has a less-than-perfect collectable to re-sell?? Beyond ridiculous.

      As someone else pointed out, if your goal is to make money re-selling these dolls then it helps
      to understand everything about them, including those actively in the hobby. What YOU might
      view as bad others view as acceptable and wouldn't consider it to reduce the dolls "value".
      Also your opinion that customiizing dolls decrease a BJD's value is incorrect. In fact it often
      increases the value when done by well known artists in the hobby. Again, it helps to understand,
      and that does mean learning. Coming into it as a beginner...because it doesn't matter how many
      $$$ paintings you've bought and sold.....these are dolls, you really cannot base one on the other.

      Also most of us have sold dolls and made an actual (if not substantial) profit so please don't act
      like it's an art we couldn't possibly understand.
       
    9. I find it's more understandable because I understand where he's coming from more, in terms of his argument. It doesn't mean I find it acceptable. But I feel that everyone's reasons for being in the hobby are valid, really: whether they want to treat their doll like a real baby, or see it merely as an investment (whether they are investments or not is a different argument).
      Though I must say I don't buy into his argument at all, at least it's interesting to see the different points of view people can hold about doll companies and the way they operate.
       
    10. You're collecting the wrong thing then if you expect ABJD to age well enough to be sold as rare art 100 years from now. Resin yellows even when it is not exposed to sunlight and tan dolls will actually turn green. This is due to oxidation and the natural instability of red dyes. No matter how carefully you keep them, all dolls will become more and more yellow as time progresses and yellowed dolls are dolls that have lost value. Also all faceups are very impermanent, even limited ones. The sealant wears off naturally with time and it also yellows with time, more than resin. I don't see any faceup lasting more than 10 years. Urethane eyes also yellow with time. Wigs dry out and become brittle if not conditioned regularly.

      I own over 10 dolls at this point but I would never recommend buying them as long term investments. If you expect an ABJD to age like an oil painting or porcelain vase you're in for a massive disappointment. You're wasting your money and should probably find something else to collect.
       
    11. I feel a bit offended for being told I am not "adjusting to cultural differences when I am the one spending money" because that`s not true....
      If that was true, all the Japanese would not be buying Blythes, Barbies, Non-Japanese BJD`s.
      Who knows? We`d probably look down on everything if we were so "high and mighty". But please note that because we were so cocky at one point WW started. We`ve learned to adjust since then. We`re actually *gasp* welcoming foreigners!

      "Perfection" seems to you a very important factor.
      Hugo, do you complain because there are gates still on your doll?
      If that were the case, I would not suggest buying resin dolls but antique porcilain dolls instead. Yes, the price is much higher but your "quality" problem might be solved.

      I know I probably have a different perspective from you, but your way of thinking the hobby seems to me as "800 dollars of resin is expensive -I expect perfection" while for me "800 dollars of resin is average if not cheaper -the sculpting, mixing resin, etc. are required and I can`t do it".

      As everyone states, if you don`t like it don`t buy it. If you want to complain, complain to the company, not everyday people like us who can`t really help you with an issue.
       
    12. Don't be hard on Iplehouse - you just missed their huge sale. They weren't sold out until a few months ago. Contrary, I've looked at the Iplehouse site for years and this is the first time that there have been delays.
       
    13. This is very important.

      If the intent is to re-sell at a higher price later on, you need to know who is likely to buy the item. Because trust me- the people buying will know what they are after, and if you don't, then they won't buy from you. It's like going into an antique shop wanting to pay $1000 for a table, only to be met with someone who doesn't understand the processes that made the table. Even if you like the item, you may well think twice before parting with your cash if you don't feel the seller knows their stuff.

      But of course you know that, Hugo, seeing as you are an art collector. ;)
       
    14. I am honestly upset by this discussion because all I am hearing is that you are not here because you like and appreciate dolls, you are here to learn to be a scalper. All I am getting is that you will try to buy limited dolls from under people who actually appreciate them to inflate prices in the future. This is a highly looked down on practice and I know that I would not be comfortable with people like you entering my otherwise sheltered hobby. This is not an attack, but a rational post. Thats like people having children not because they want to be parents but so someone will take care of them when their old. Its ridiculous and makes me uncomfortable.
       

    15. I would actually disagree on this point. Soom Dolls, and Volks discontinued sculpts/Limiteds, are selling for easily two to three times their original prices-- even with some of the full-set pieces missing. BJDs are, in fact, quite an investment. Especially if modified well and in near-mint condition.
       
    16. If you want to understand the BJD industry then you probably need to wrap your head around the fact that there are different groups of dollmakers within it. Some companies are in to cater to lower-end budgets, some have established high standards, and some are just individuals who like making dolls. Of course the technical processes differ. Maybe they prefer to spend more time on making beautiful new sculpts than resin consistency over several years. Maybe they prefer to use computers to get symmetrical accuracy rather than sculpting by hand. Companies have different goals and restraints based on available capital and manpower - it's understandable, isn't it?

      Have you received a spotted doll yourself? Did they refuse to replace it or refund you? Then you just don't have to buy from them and you can tell others about your experience. So far I've always got what I paid for.

      And also maybe take note of the fact that Korean =/=Japanese =/= Chinese. Sheesh. It might seem nitpicky but it's like calling you French just because you're Caucasian.
       
    17. I agree that some are- there are some Volks dolls that sell for thousands and thousands! BUT the majority of them will not. Look at the mp now- you can find dolls there for much less than they were originally selling, even if the doll is in good condition. And Hugo was talking about dolls being an investment in generations to come- even the most expensive of dolls will eventually yellow, and the most exclusive faceups with chip and fade. The vast majority of dolls are not an investment, and luckily, most doll owners are not in the hobby to make money.
       
    18. Sure, they sell for higher prices THIS year. I've seen limited dolls that sold for 4x their retail worth in the 2007 secondhand market that are now barely going for $100 over original retail because this hobby is fickle and tastes change. Once the next newest thing comes out people will start to care less and less about Soom monthlies and Volks limiteds from a certain year. What was hot in 2007 isn't hot in 2011 and in 2015 none of the things that are popular now will matter. Hang around in the hobby long enough and you'll see it.
       
    19. Hugo, I'm scratchin' my head at your issue with Iple's move as I've had friends receive dolls in record time from them lately...like nearly next day unlike normal bjd service! Which sounds like they were prepared for moving...
      It does astound me to pay what feels like a huge amount & hear little from the seller, and the lengthy production schedules feel excruciating. But at least in this community folks are warned if the seller has become flaky & most production does have real scheduling challenges.
      For me, as a small business owner, I don't want to take on the responsibility of shipping world wide, having the color match expectations & dealing with damaged goods. More power to those willing to give it a go! And also as a small business owner, I don't take money down, don't tolerate flaky customers & say no when a commission feels like a hassle. I do agree with some of your frustrations but I've still been willing to buy a couple of dolls.

      Whew, this thread did a rapid growth thing! I've almost read enough to catch up to myself.
      Myrrin, your porcelain BJD link was an excellent suggestion when looking at dolls as an investment. Since I became interested in this hobby, I've spent a lot of time reading & learning & the only investments seem to be in limited run art dolls. The only doll I own which is worth as much, or more than what I paid is my Kaye Wiggs Nettle. She came from a very limited production & was painted by the artist. As someone already pointed out, this is a buyers market these days,on reselling most dolls. Some of the poorer quality dolls aren't that different from what the big name porcelain doll companies were putting out by 1900 when their production had become big business. And as for investment, I keep wondering if this could be the next great tulip bulb fiasco! Good luck !!
       
    20. Wrong word, sorry. I do "understand" his POV more....I just thinks it's shady
      being upset at companies for inconsistencies etc. because of his ultimate intention.
      Get involved in the hobby and with others who have been in it since the beginning.....
      learn what buyers do & don't like....and we are all buyers, so the fact that he wants
      opinions but then dismisses them is rather funny imo.

      Also he can't come into this with the belief that his knowledge in other forms of
      collecting will help him as much as he thinks. There are far too many companies
      to be able to judge accurately what the future will hold for their dolls second-hand.
      A good example imo is CCC. Despite everything people still really want his dolls.
      While other companies end and nobody seems to want their dolls in the MP.
      So much, if not all, of the aftermarket comes down to personal taste/opinions and
      how much that individual wants the doll. For me a lot of my wanting comes from
      seeing other members dolls and how they customized them. Which obviously is
      not something that can be predicted.
      Also there are some sculpts you want badly enough to overlook "imperfections".

      Anyhow, my only real point is if someone truly wants to understand something
      they have to be willing to listen to those who know a little more about the subject.
      I think everyone made really good points, and there is a wealth of information on
      the forum that someone could truly understand the BJD buyers mind without
      having to attack them for being "too accepting". :(