Trying to Understand the BJD Industry

One, I've been in the hobby since Volks was the only doll company. Don't let my forum date join you; I had to re-register as my original account was lost in forum changes. Condescension gets you nowhere.

Secondly; there are plenty of older dolls still going for thousands-- even yellowed and damaged. Anyone scrambling for one of the original Sards can tell you that--and by god, the inflation on the Limited tinies is staggering. Some of the Volks' heads alone sell from 250$-500$. Which is the cost of a whole doll itself. While you might not be willing to pay that much for a secondhand doll, many will. Which is why it's ridiculous to tell someone they can't make a profit later on their collections. Yes, not all sculpts will rake in moola, but there are /many/ that do.

 

I agree, but I think the original point was that we have no idea if they will still rake in that kind of cash in 100 years time.

I'm kind of hoping that that they will, personally. I think that these are lovely items and I hope that people in generations to come will still value them. But they might not. We have no real way of knowing if they trully are heirloom items, or if after 50 years or so they degrade too much to hold value. Only time will tell on that one.

 

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but if you really believe resin dolls to be a long-term investment, you might want to reassess your investment savvy. The sad truth is that while some dolls by some manufacturers can fetch prices significant higher than their original price, the market is fickle and has little to do with what you perceive as standard quality, but rather with the sculptor's mystique, doll's charisma and simply fashion. Besides, ABJDs have not been around long enough to prove that heirloom durability. On the contrary, there is evidence that polyurethane disintegrates with time. Perhaps stuffed bears are a more solid investment after all.

 

I'm sorry you felt my post was condescending, it wasn't intended to sound that way.
However, please look at the old Luts sculpts like Elf El, Breakaway v1, Woosoo and so on. Remember when those used to go for obscene amounts on the MP? How much are they going for now? How many people even want one anymore? Bermann still goes for 1.5k-2k but that's not near what he used to sell for. Remember the Bermann that went for $9000 on Ebay? Sure a Volks Lucas head will sell for $400 but he used to go for $800. Do you see what I mean? This occurred over only a few years, and if you're in it for long term investment that's a very bad thing. A certain sculpt cannot be counted upon to bring in a certain amount of money, or hold its value over time.

 

I think the main thing is that Hugo doesn't really appreciate yet that dolls are different from both Rolls-Royces and old oil paintings. They're a kind of completely different thing. I don't mean that in a starry-eyed doll-loving way, but it's not only that dolls will disintergrate with time. It's also due to changing fashions, tastes, and the way the world works in the future. I mean, in the future everybody could hate dolls and think they're terrifying, in the same way we now regard certain Victorian fashions as morbid and creepy.

I just have this strange vision of someone on their deathbed, beckoning their great-grandchild closer then handing them a battered, banana-yellow doll with mangled resin and tatty clothes, saying, "This is a Soom MD, I've preserved it since 2011 for you! Go and prosper!"

 

But they attended to your problem and refunded you, didn't they? If someone gave you a less than satisfactory product in the US you would ask the same thing of them. If you can't give the customer what they want, you can at least give them their money back, and they did this. To me that is good customer service. They cared enough about pleasing their customer, even if they couldn't match the feet perfectly.

Quoting these both for emphasis. I grew up with my parents owning a wool store, and I used to work in a fabric store for 10+ years. I now sew for a living. Dying is not an exact science. Everything will have some variation to it - someone mentioned their Volks oldskin and pureskin parts matched, mine don't. I even have oldskin parts that don't match. It's not a huge difference, but it's still a difference. There is still an issue with dyelots.
And when you work with fabric long enough you see the difference between two rolls of the same colour fabric, no matter how slight.

As for dolls, I've heard of dolls coming assembled with unmatching parts - that I consider unacceptable. But if I buy some parts later down the track for my doll, I'm not necessarily going to expect it to be a perfect match - not only because of batch differences, but because my doll may have aged in that time. It's awesome if it does, but it's not something I expect from a company.

It's tax return time in the second half of the year in Australia. Don't assume the rest of the world is just like America.

As others have mentioned, what is popular now, may not be later. Iplehouse may seem like the thing to buy right now, but they're the flavour of the month, and they don't really resell for a high price from what I have noticed. I would suggest researching a bit more on such things, and see just how much the market can fluctuate over time.

 

I don't know. *Laughs.* I think that their are some easy comparisons to be made between car manufacturers and doll companies. RS/BBB and AoD being the Kia's of the Doll world-- while Volks and Soom roll around as Jags and Royces. And of course, Custom House being the once-loved and reliable Toyota-- now, not so much!.

I think I just died a little inside, because I would totally do that to my grand-baby.

">:O LOVE IT!"
"...O-Okay, gramma."

 

These days, not so much. I have bought several older (2008-2009) Soom limiteds for $200-$300 below their retail price each this year, bells and whistles included. While some dolls can still command amazing resale prices, not all will, even if it's a sure thing. All I can think since this discussion turned to "investment value" is: remember Beanie Babies? I can remember people saying they were going to pay for their kids' college tuition with the resale value from those things.

This is the most awesome thing I have read on the forum in quite some time. Thank you.

 

Oh god, Beanie Babies... Man, I couldn't even get $1 a piece from those. I recently just gave an entire box away just to get them out of my closet.

 

I remember that. Same with Magic: the Gathering cards. Some people made out like bandits -- others, not so much.

With an item that will -- not might, but WILL -- degrade over time no matter how well it's made, long-term investment prospects are slim at best. This hobby is, what, ten years old? Perhaps a little more? And prices have fluctuated wildly in that time. I wouldn't even begin to speculate as to what will happen with it another ten years from now, let alone what it could be like when I'd have grandkids -- and that's under the extremely bad assumption that the dolls would still be in selling form. (Which I won't, but at 37, I'm old enough sans kids to have some inkling of how far out that would be if I did.)

 

so, i understand being disappointed when you get something that you thought would be different, i have been there. as a matter of fact, i just - regrettably maybe - started a thread talking about a slight dolly disappointment. however, though i have my preferences, and i have been disappointed, i love this hobby, and i love my dolls, and am really really glad that these aren't produced in the same factory line way that they would be if they were bought out by some western company looking to make a million dollars.

i understand frustration and disappointment, but this hobby is for fun, and it's more fun to accept it for what it is i think. ^_^

 

Since I have yet to see Godwin's Law invoked as Lulu requested earlier, the least I can do is invoke Beanie Babies.

As for resale value, I'm pretty sure every doll I own has gone down in value since I bought it, even the limiteds. A lot. I'm OK with that. I don't plan on selling (most) of them any time soon.

I'm just glad that the most valuable things I own (besides my car) survived two burglaries in 6 months. Seeing them on their shelf in tact while my flatscreen is missing (again) at least made me giggle. It's times like that when I'm grateful that the world at large doesn't understand what the heck these dolls are.

 

BJD's as "investments"... god, I'm still laughing. And then BRAGGING about his/her savvy reselling art, all while showing absolutely no understanding about that market in general. Cute. Absolutely precious.

BJD as "heirlooms" & tax-free wealth to pass on? Really? I think the entire line of thought is fundamentally off. But go right ahead.

Maybe cars aren't such a bad comparison after all. Some classics from years yonder can certainly be quite valuable. But then you're willfully ignoring the 99% of its contemporaries that are worth more melted down.

I call troll.

 

That was pure awesomeness Made me smile

I KNOW! Tried to sell a bunch last year at a garage sale and the
only one that didn't come back was one my Mom gave to a little girl...
(I had told her if there was a kid whose parent said no, to give it free)
Of course that hasn't stopped people from trying to sell them for
thousands of dollars on eBay.
But it's a really good example! People's asking price and what people are
actually willing to pay are often completely different things.
I think if you want to get into ABJD's as an investment then that's cool..
just realize there are many many variables and as much as you might
"research" there's no guarantee. But I suppose most collectors know this.

 

"Go and prosper"!!!! *tea shoots out my eyeballs*

I thought this thread started on the premise the BJD "Industry" was appallingly flawed when it came to business practice, quality control, etc., but then it turned into perfection is mandatory because the purchase price requires it, and then to perfection is required because several key companies are the ones to collect for long-term investment value generations hence, with some "eh, anime" and "shrug hobby" throw in. Or close to that. Maybe I'm confused ... as those small BJD studios would say, "Thank you for your understandings."

Don't Buy It: Totally behind this. Speak with your wallet. There's a flip side. I think of it as the My-Rules-In-My-House Axiom. When you are invited to my home, you are free to decline the invitation. I won't be offended (much). Perhaps I'll ponder why you wouldn't come, and that might lead me to change my ways (maybe and only if you tell me why). But if you come to my house, I do expect you to abide by my house rules. They're not outrageous ones; just know that if you insist on standing over me while I cook the food you're about to eat and on being obnoxious about how I'm doing it, I'm going to ask you to leave.

You don't have to buy from them. They are not obligated to sell to you. I can't bid directly on Y!J, nor can I sell directly on Y!J. Volks can pack up their LA store and go back to selling only inside Japan. Yes, that any Asian BJD seller makes it possible for me to buy more easily makes me grateful ... and I don't think that relegates me to the role of doormat.

BJDs as a Collectible Investment: Lots of intelligent stuff has been said. Won't repeat it. Of course, people who know how to make money in the area of collectibles know that a good grasp of the turning points in and history of the art form is critical. When did it start? Where? Who? Why? (Note, here's where anime figures in ... you may not like it, but you need to know how it combined with Japanese ningyo tradition and European ball-jointed dolls 150 years old to influence the very first BJD.) How long did it take to get on a roll? When did things start to change? What was the first stylistic branch? The next? Which companies? Any geographic trends? Cultural trends? When did things change from small studios self-casting to shopping out to China? What have been some of the defining moments in the evolution of ABJD design--stylistically and in the engineering? Why aren't there any highly-successful Western designers working within the ABJD aesthetic? Odd that, no? (This is not to say there aren't talented, passionate non-Asian artists!) Why use resin? What sorts of design qualities about the material affected design qualities in the dolls? Why the fascination with French resin when it yellows much quicker (is there a cultural preference for materials that develop their equivalent of a patina with age)?

There are, of course, many more questions that lead the exacting connoisseur of objets d'art to suspect he/she had made the best informed decision when it came to investment dollars.

Twelve years ago, the first ABJD hit the market, and you had to live in Japan to buy it. You can barely give one of those early dolls away now, and twelve years is nothing by which to judge historic appreciation generations hence (if the things are still in tact by then). What's hot now will not be hot a year from now, and making bets on what will last ... well, I'd rather just get another doll, thank you very much.

 

If you want to give your descendants tangible pieces of artwork that will be worth something, it's a pretty dumb idea to settle on resin dolls in a niche hobby that don't age well. Your hissy fit over them being resin and not a different kind of mold injected plastic is hilarious considering most plastic and vinyl are not archival quality and deteriorate over time as well. Ever seen a slimy Barbie #1?

If you really cared, you'd be buying them gold bullion.

I also fail to see how you can be an art investor and collector in something you have no actual insight into, and it is hilarious the two companies you think are going to be making you serious money are ones that 1.) don't have much by way of actual limited editions and thus a much larger pool of existing dolls and 2.) are not known for the resale value exceeding retail cost. When you think big money secondhand for rarity and desirability from collectors, you think Volks, Soom, and to a lesser degree Dollshe, though even Bermanns now are selling for half of what they sold for 3-4 years ago, and they have a documented, finite amount in existence. I also agree with the people who have said that even Volks and Soom LE's are not selling for what they once did. I remember when you couldn't get Shirou naked for less than $1500. Now? I bought one for $750 and could barely sell the head for $300 later. Even Madoka has been sitting on the marketplace now for months for hundreds less than what she used to sell for. The only sculpts that reach those mythical 2-3x their retail price anymore are Williams, Reisner, Shinku, Luna, Hinata, and Suigintou. Maybe Michele and Tsukasa. That's it.

I expect a company to provide me with good customer service - this means answering my questions, generally being polite, and helping make the transaction pleasant and helping fix any problems that arrive. I want a product consistent with the quality standards I have come to expect, free of breaks, chipping, or bad resin. I am always impressed with consistent resin colour like Volks produces, but it's not a deal breaker for me so long as my entire doll is the same colour. Most companies do provide good customer service and quality dolls.

Your entire attitude is a bit like entering someone's home and pitching a fit because their rules and expectations are different than what you think someone's home and rules should be like. Your being mad at Iplehouse for closing their shop while they move is like getting pissed off at a store for closing for remodeling. They're a horrible business because you can't buy from them right now when you want to? God forbid! Even the Gap closes every night. What about those poor suffering people who want overpriced t-shirts at 3am in the morning?

 

If the intent is to resell at a profit, then the perfection argument is moot. The collectors in the hobby do not expect perfection and while they will likely pay more for good condition, they're not going to pay more for perfection. This is a hobby where we will often pay quite a lot for an LE with every intention of wiping the face or even modding it to get exactly what we want. If it's THE sculpt we want, we may not even quibble on what condition it's in. There's no NRFB, mint condition premium here. If you want any chance of making money on the after market, you need to understand how it actually works. If you just want these to have resale value later and don't intend to participate in the hobby itself, your personal take isn't as important to your endeavour as the viewpoint of potential buyers.

I maintain that if a company delivers to you what they say they will deliver, and they warn you about the quirks of the product beforehand, then their business practices are appropriate. Not all BJD companies are particularly good at business, but I know from personal experience some of them are fantastic at making BJDs. And this forum alone is proof that thousands of collectors/fans/hobbyists are willing to spend a lot of money on these imperfect resin creatures.

 

I am seriously in awe that anyone would still consider BJDs an investment. I remember back a few years some people saw them that way or at least as a something you could always sell at a profit but those days are long gone. Between re-releases and so many dolls being out there now, I don't think there is any doll one can buy assuming it will double or triple or even necessarily get back original price.

I actually appreciate when companies show sold out items. I really wish Volks had a gallery of past LE outfits so I could better keep track of which piece went with which set.

I've not bought from Iplehouse but I'd imagine one reason they have dolls marked as sold out is it can take a while to reset up shop post a move and they don't want someone to order a doll and have an inordinate wait. I know from friends who live in Japan (pre-earthquake/tsunami) that is can take a couple of weeks to have someone come by and set up your internet sometimes.

BTW since everyone keeps referencing the Gap... You might be able to get a shirt in the same consistent color at the Gap or Old Navy or H&M but anyone who has ever decided they liked one particular style and then decided to buy it in the same size in a different color knows that SIZING can be inconsistent. I've bought shorts at H&M in khaki and then went back to buy the exact same shorts in black a week later and the black ones are tighter than the khaki. They're the same size... they're the same style... I'm not any larger in that one week and yet there is a size difference.

I think there is a lot less consistency even in more mass-produced items, let alone in something like BJDs which are not.

 

I think this is exactly what the OP was getting at, and I agree completely. I, personally, have had such a problematic transaction with Iplehouse that I wouldn't buy another doll from them. Sometimes bad customer service is just bad customer service.

But geez, you guys. I don't think the OP has said anything even remotely offensive, and everyone is insulting him for all they're worth. I think there is a serious attitude problem on these boards.

Hugobopp, this thread has probably already answered your question, but just in case . . . yes, there are not many people around here who will stick up for their rights as consumers. Embarrassingly, we are also not much of a group for critical thinking, or calm, rational discussion.

 

Surreality wrote

Oh My God. I spend so much on those little cards..at least I really enjoyed playing, making decks and saving out the cards that were done by friends..but last year I took a suitcase full to a comic book store and got a stack of comics for my daughter in return

I'm fairly sure our dolls won't hold up too well--the value will come when most of them have turned to yellowy powder, but a few will still survive lost in trunks and crates, and those will have some value as curiosities--but long after we're dead, I'm afraid!

In the meantime I'm delighted to just bargain hunt, deny myself ones out of my price range (remembering the stupid magic cards) and generally just having a lot of fun taking pictures and fooling around with them. For investment art, I'd say buy oil paints done with the traditional supports, and keep all the documents in an envelope with the painting; or jewelry, which has the added value of durability and materials that are themselves considered valuable.

So, dollie investors, keep all that Orangebabydolly jewelry and do paintings of your favorite sculpts, in oils