Trying to Understand the BJD Industry

Dolls are made of resin because garage kits are made of resin, Volks started out as a company making resin models. When Volks first started making ABJD they were meant to be kit dolls, something you put together and and customized yourself. Resin is a material very suited to modeling because it is easy to sand, cut and carve. It also takes being painted well- it holds paint which other plastics don't do, and it tolerates having that paint removed and reapplied repeatedly. These dolls are meant to be customized and are built from the ground up so that it is easy for owners to do so. Many owners nowadays prefer to pay someone to do those things for them, but at its roots the ABJD hobby is all about taking a blank doll and making it unique.

 

Hugo is there any specific product you have in mind that you feel can be worked with and handled like resin, that you can do the same things to as resin, but be a lot more stable?

 

Because 30,000 collectors like it, that's why.

 

At first I truly wanted to give an in depth answer for the OP as I do think quality should be high for a hand made artist item. I would hope that non machine made items would actually be a step up because artists take a great deal of pride in their work. Non mass produced means that an item can have more complicated assembly, add special detailing, use unique materials, etc... Also the artist is closer to their work so they should in theory be able to better control the quality of their product.

But then I read through all 7 pages of this post and realized....
I sense some Trolling.

 

If it's trolling it's gone on for a while as he's on several other forums and has been taking part in 'the community' for a while. (Lets not go into his lil slip up on the forum that shall not be named)

Personally, I think Hugo, you're looking into this hobby in the wrong light. The only way to make money in this hobby is to make dolls, be a skilled faceup artist/modder (but you seem strongly against modding dolls in anyway) etc and even then you can end up making a loss (same with buying Soom dolls or any dolls. You may make a loss)
But you seem to be talking long term. BJDs wont stand the test of time well. Even if they stay in their boxes and are not touched or looked at. They just wont. Most the people on this forum know that and enjoy the dolls regardless, after all, that's why the dolls exist in the first place. Enjoyment.

I wont touch upon the resin question as I dont know much about plastics and it would be foolish of me to act as if I did.

 

If you are a serious collector of art or dolls, I suggest visiting your local doll museum or UFDC, taking a look at everything there and telling us which dolls are still in the same condition as they were 50+ years ago when first made. As cliche as it sounds, nothing, and I mean nothing lasts forever. Plastic eyes will break down, cloud and turn yellow, silicone eyes will cloud, hair will lose its colour and shape, paint will fade, white will eventually turn ivory or beige (Frozen Charlotte, anyone?). If you find one there in mint condition over a couple generations old, please, do let us know

If you want an heirloom, look elsewhere. A community of 30k people is barely comparable to the world population of 6 billion.

 

To a lot of people (including myself) Hugo has written extremely inflammatory posts here, and on other forums as well. I'm not surprised that it looks like we can't do 'rational' discussion atm

FTW XD Nothing lasts forever, but diamonds and precious metals will!

 

"hobby" (small h) by definition is an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation. A few synonms: pastime, leisure activity, interest, avocation, amusement, entertainment. (all of which have no or minimal intrinsic monetary value).

While I like the idea that my doll might have a resale value greater than its purchase price, I do not buy a doll with the intention of selling it, so that issue is moot. Dolls are the vehicle that encourages the creative side in me. Sewing, photography, crafts in general, with dolls as the reason to create. As for imperfection: Volks F16--its sculpt is known to be uneven--however, it is the "feel" of the face that appeals to me. Some people sand it to even out the features, I have not. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I am not rationalizing nor excusing my imperfect doll.

I care little if it is a big or small company. I care not about how the businesses are run. As long as I can purchase and the company can deliver a desired and satisfactory product safely into my hands within a reasonable time, I am happy. I have money in my pocket, so I have the luxery of choice and whatever I choose, I choose fully aware of its imperfections (if any), time needed for delivery and I knowingly accept the eccentricities of the hobby. What one is willing to accept is absolutely subjective, so research is critical to making an informed decision.

Participating in the BJD world has given me the opportunity to make new friends, learn new things, do new and different activities; these are all emotional and personal experiences.

That is the difference between a hobby and investment: emotion. BJDs touch the emotional side of most collectors. The word "hobby" (small h), barely describes the emotional value of ball-jointed dolls to me personally. If my dolls lose monetary value, so be it. No one in my family, including extended family, appreciates them. So the dolls are only valuable to me. So there it is. I'll give away some and others will be buried with me.

After reading all 7 pages it seems comments made, e.g., BJDs as investment/heirlooms, collectors passively accepting "poor" treatment or product from/by companies, people spending large amounts of money on "unstable" products; while not directed at any one person, do have a tone that incite emotional and defensive responses. Perhaps it is unfortunate phrasing, or perhaps the intention is to "stir the pot"...only the writer can say which. All I can think is that it is an interesting way to learn about something.

 

Well, I mean you have a purpose in starting this thread, right? Of being here, of choosing this particular type of doll? So if you don't like resin, and you don't want the information and advice you are getting, what's the point of all of this to you? Again, not trying to be rude, but I'm not understanding where you're coming from.

People have answered the resin question plenty of times over, and you seem to not be paying attention, so I'll say it again:

These dolls are made to be customized. While you can customize other types of plastic dolls, resin is better for the following things:

Subtractive mods: It's easy to sand resin
Additive mods: It's easy to sculpt onto resin

When it comes to things like faceups, I have no more issue on a vinyl doll than I do a resin doll, however, permanent staining is less of a problem with resin dolls, so taking said faceup off and redoing it may end up being easier on a resin doll.

Some people like the weight of resin and how it looks and feels. These things are subjective -- they are not rationalizing an inferior product, they have genuine reasons for preferring it, they just might not match up with your reasons. That's ok, as we all have things we prefer whether it's one company's resin over another, or resin better than vinyl or porcelain (or vice versa). However, if you are planning to make money off your dolls in the future, understanding other hobbyists' reasons and what they tend to like and not like is important, so instead of just blowing people off pay attention to what they are telling you.

Other types of plastic will not last in pristine condition indefinitely, either. If you have been under that misconception, then I suggest you let go of it now. There is no perfect doll making material -- there will be upsides and downsides to everything. That is life. We aren't stupid here, we probably know more about these dolls than you do at this point. However, despite certain limitations that the medium carries with it, we love them and the hobby. For us, they are worth it. I can't tell you if they are worth it to you or not -- that's something you need to decide for yourself. But after reading all your responses, I'm having trouble understanding why you have chosen these particular dolls. There are lots of things out there that are investment material, and while Chinese art is popular right now, I'm not sure abjds completely fall into that specific category of artwork.

If you are buying dolls that you prefer, then you can buy any material you like. If you have no personal preference and this is all about money, then why should it matter to you beyond what your potential buyers are interested in?

 

I don't know where anyone has said that Iplehouse can never do any wrong. There is a difference between standing up for your rights as a consumer and understanding how things work. If the company gives fair warning on something, they have done their part. If they deliver under what they have promised, then absolutely they have done wrong. And absolutely people on this forum complain about it. I know I have.

And while some posts have been pretty sarcastic, if you think people are "insulting for all their worth" you seriously underestimate the ability people have to insult. I've seen plenty of calm, rational posts in this thread. The OP's staying calm, too, but is being a little provoking whether intentionally or not.

After a point, one has to accept the answers to questions asked. One does not have to agree with them, but there's really no point to telling a large group of people they are wrong for the very reasons that they are here on this forum having this conversation in the first place. I don't see why people shouldn't be annoyed to have to repeatedly justify their choice to support companies who work with a certain material and have quite successfully for 12 years. And this is the community that buys on the aftermarket, so why go out and annoy a bunch of them if one wants to sell to them later on?

Several people have pointed out various reasons that resin works for these dolls: it feels nicer, more alive than other plastics. It's not actually dramatically unstable these days, though some yellowing/greening is inevitable (although a certain amount of rescue work can be done). It accepts a lot of abuse, can be sanded, glued, carved, painted, stripped, re-painted, cast in a rainbow of colours as well as a range of realistic skintones. I would add that it has a glow that you don't see in vinyl. It has a nice weight, adding to the sense that the doll is alive.

If the OP feels he could go out and do something with a better material, then he's perfectly free to go do that, and I'm sure many collectors would be very excited by the possibilities. It would probably be a better bet financially than collecting BJDs as an investment. I don't think it would make current resin BJDs go away at all, though. I just don't think many of us are here for identical reproduction, completely perfect sculpts, and NRFB-style collecting. Cabinet babies are in cabinets, not boxes, and there is no Overstreet Guide or what-have-you here.

Many have also pointed out why they navigate the vagaries of BJD company sites and practises to get these dolls. Disagreeing with those reasons will not change that behaviour. Buy from the MP instead, then the companies get zero benefit from your purchase.

 

I think snowleopard articulates one of the critical issues that distinguishes most of the "collectors" who participate on this board from the collector who is disinterested in the "hobby" aspects: emotional involvement. I'm sure people who are focussed on the long-term appreciation of monetary value are passionate about the money, but those who approach an object at a more visceral, personal level invest a very different sort of emotion.

I'm curious also, about the concept of "stable" in art media. Paper: unstable. Canvass: moderately stable. Fresco: unstable. Wood: fairly unstable. Granite/marble: quite stable. Cloth: (as in doll bodies) fairly unstable. Vinyl/many mass-produced plastics: fairly unstable. Resin: more stable. And so on. Do only objects created from stable materials hold their value? Because numerous objects whose condition does deteriorate over time are valued for what is left (say, old French bisque dolls), and when you try to get them restored, restoration folks encourage you not to mess with many of the factors that might make them "perfect" again. And, in fact, it was their original imperfections combined with the imperfection age bestows that actually influences their value. Sometimes the mistakes are worth even more.

I think to realise any long-term value from these objects, you would need never to touch them with bare hands. ... better still, never subject them to air or any form of light. Do not display them. If you choose to, make sure it's a smoke-free, cooking-fumes-free, light-free, chemical-free environment. Best might be to store them in a specially prepared, hermetically-sealed space in which optimal environmental conditions can be controlled (gotta figure out what those are, first). Then, for the trouble of this expense, you've got to hope you've selected, from all the possibilities, the ones you think really will surpass their original value. I greatly enjoy Iplehouse and Elfdoll, but these are not without their limiting design flaws, and I think that could reasonably be said for any company's designs.

The thing is, that involvement with the collectible doesn't come close to equating with the love/joy/inspiration most of us derive from our purchases. In fact, it's apples and oranges. And it's going to be difficult to get answers that meet your expectations for logic and practicality when you're dealing with the fundamentally irrational justification that is emotion.

 

Everyone has brought forward wonderful points with which I wholeheartedly agree, so I won't bother repeating.

In defense of the Asian doll companies, I would like to add, the ones that I have dealt with have had exemplary quality and customer service! I don't exaggerate when I say they have gone out of their way to make sure that I am pleased and happy with my purchase. They have been a pleasure to deal with! It has also seemed to be on a very personal level. I like the fact that you can email them and you are answered personally, in a timely fashion. I like knowing my dolls and their accessories are made to order for me personally. That the artist/craftsman is on the other end of this creation making a doll just for me. It is the very fact that these dolls originated in Asia that make them what they are. By manufacturing them over here, they would no longer be the same or be unique.

Hugobopp, I fear your statements only perpetuate the justified perception to the rest of the world that all Americans are just out to make money. I truly hope that people realize that not all Americans share this sentiment or the mentality that America does everything bigger and better, and that bigger is better, because nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, don't want bigger and I certainly don't want mass-produced.

 

This thread actually prompted me to go dive into the university journal archives and google scholar to find information on the aging of rigid polyurethane resins (which is different from the elastic types that are much worse when it comes to aging), and what I found is actually quite good though not conclusive because there are uh.... a lot of different polyurethane resins out there and it really depends on the choice of monomers and the specific type the companies choose to use. But from what I've read on a few different types in wide application, under thermal atmospheric conditions, rigid resins tend to actually harden ever so slightly as they age. And while they do undergo oxidation and the formation of free radicals, this process eventually terminates. No falling apart and melting away (well, not from the experimental and theoretical results, anyways), unless you do something really stupid with your doll, like decide to give it a nice cleansing acid bath.

Honestly, other than the colour-changing with aging properties (which, as my 'History of the Doll' book will attest, is a phenomenon that over-takes pretty much all possible doll material, including stone), resin actually seems like a pretty good choice. I mean yeah, yeah, there are million/billions of dollars poured into the research into plastics (though I believe the current trend is to find plastics that are MORE degradable, not less), but the vast majority of the results of those experiments go to the people who put the money into it; and something tells me doll companies aren't high on the list of "people to distribute experimental results to".

As far protecting the rights of the customer... I'm not gonna comment much because I have a LOT of dislike for lazy, entitled tartlets who have an over-blown sense of their own worth - and mind you I've never worked in business and public relations, this is just the build-up of the frustration that I experienced as another CUSTOMER. Jeeze, just because you gave them a small chunk of money to make you doll doesn't somehow entitle you to their entire body/soul/mental health - just the doll, as agreed-upon by whatever was outlined in the description (including, gasp, the wait times and the resin differences) that YOU AGREED TO WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE DOLL. There's a difference between actually BEING wronged, and FEELING wronged because you didn't bother to figure out how things worked from the start.

 

Hugo,

You should buy Volks.

 

I've been reading this thread and wondering if BJDs are the ultimate product for the "I want it now generation". We don't care how long it lasts, as long as we're enjoying it now? I don't think 50 years into the future with my hobbies. I'd probably switch to claymaking if I did - look how long some pots have lasted - centuries. I bet they didn't realise when they walked into their local urn shop that those pots would be appearing in museums. Perhaps we should start asking BJDs to be made with clay? Actually, I believe a few people model in clay, perhaps they should donate those sculpts to Hugobopp for his great nephew to treasure? I hope he's into brown or grey.
(Said in humour)

 

I think people are still missing the point with resin. Using it has nothing to do with the end result, it's all about ease of production, and, to some degree, the fact that it's the only real way of making art dolls. Resin can be prepared with nothing but a paint bucket and a stirring stick, and poured into a mold at low temperature and essentially no pressure. This means that the molds can be either brittle, as with plaster or sand molds, or soft, as with silicone molds, which in turn means the molds themselves can also be created by pouring over a hand-sculpted original. There isn't really another practical way of making (relatively) exact replicas of somebody's hand work in small numbers.

Other forms of plastic production require computer-machined metal molds, which have to withstand burning hot plastic at high pressure. (hence "injection molding") The molds for injection molding can cost tens of thousands of dollars a piece, and remember that you'll need half a dozen molds or more for a single doll, and that in a factory situation you'll be making multiples at the same time. You're pretty quickly at a million dollars just for molds, plus the cost of actually having a factory produce the products, which could be in the tens or hundreds of thousands a day. Compare that to three people in a workshop somewhere in Kyoto making a few dolls at a time in molds that they made, and that comprise about $10 of materials a piece, and the case for resin becomes quite clear.

 

It seems the OP is deliberately putting the 'cat amongst the pigeons'; and if he has asked this very same question of other forums and had a similar response- it seems to me that he is not really interested in the answer, but rather in trying to entice people. I don't see the point.

While I admit I have absolutely no knowledge of how resin works and plastics in general (and thank you to cosplayshots for her detailed explanation on the process), does it truly matter how they are made? Do we have to buy and invest in something that will last for the next hundred years? And, to be quite frank, although $1000 for a doll may seem inexplicably expensive to some people, to others it is not. It is a subjective opinion, and regardless of how pricey these dolls are deemed to be; it is a reflection more of the manufacturing process and the want of these dolls that price them so.

Asking someone their opinion on a personal and financial decision they have made by mocking them is not really going to give you objective answers that you can utilise. It seems that the OP is not attempting to understand the industry, but rather the buyer. And, when given the responses, 'well because we want to and it's our money thank you very much' does not suffice, even deeper degradation of the respondee's is given. Any surprise that people here are feeling victimised when a hobby they quite clearly are passionate about is being demonised.

If the OP cannot find the answer he wants by trying the various doll forums, then perhaps he should reconsider his own view. Go ahead and make your dolls from a different plastic, good for you and I wish you success. I just wonder whether you really believe the attack of your potential clients was good business practise?

 

I'm still sitting here laughing at the idea of BJDs as a "family heirloom" to pass down to the grandkids. Yeah, right.

Furthermore, hobby collectibles as a whole aren't advisable as investment items...the collectible market is simply too fickle. I have a closet of Barbie dolls and Beanie Babies, and a few Bradford Exchange plates that I imagine I will have to eventually donate to Goodwill because I can't even unload them on a yard sale.

 

All plastics yellow as far as I know and all could be equally unstable. It just depends on your viewpoint. Yellowing isn't limited to resin. My old computer screen and desktop --circa 2000-- isn't the same bright white is was when I got it. However, resin is more durable and easier to repair and customize than Barbies' plastic or computer plastic and doesn't require large factories.

I admit that I don't know much about plastic, but wouldn't using green plastic make it quicker to degrade? It's meant to be environmentally safe and bio-degradable.

The hobby, though it might be related, has noting to do with anime. If you want something that has enough weath to be sold later in an emergency, then it would be better to get a porcelain doll as mentioned, or invest in Chinese Contemporary art. BJD are a niche market, and won't be of value unless sold to that niche market. That being said, tastes change, and some dolls won't be as popular as they were even 5 years ago.