Trying to Understand the BJD Industry

This is very a very important thing that you don't seem to understand: Americans are not the only people with money, and you are not the only ones buying dolls.

No matter when a company closes it's doors for any kind of renovation/website update/building move, someone, somewhere, will think that it is the wrong time, and will complain that OMG WE HAVE MONEY TO SPEND NOW!! and will think it is poor practice, but that does not make it true. Closing a business for a couple of months to improve services is not a sign of a dying market. Far from it- it's a sign of a company bettering itself to attract more customers and improve their product.

Also, your logic is flawed, badly. We are in the midst of a global recession, and yet membership on all the BJD forums and sites I belong to (which number a fair few, let me tell you!) is increasing- as are the number of companies making dolls. When I joined this hobby there were perhaps 5 main doll companies. I can now name 3 times that easily. People are still spending money on these items- more money, too, with the introduction of collectable series like the SOOM MDs and Ipls's Nocturna Circus dolls. Volks is certainly showing no sign of going under. So, to say that the hobby is 'dying' because ONE company did ONE thing that you, personally, did not think was 'good practice' is possibly the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.

This hobby won't last forever, but right now? It is currently expanding, not collapsing.

Hugobop, I say this in the nicest way I can: go and study business before you make snap decisions about companies. And then please, stop trolling DoA. It's not big, it's not clever, and you are not making yourself look good.

 

But Hugo!
You do play with your dolls
You do create for them
I have seen your photos, and the dresses you have made for them.......they are lovely.

So I am really at a loss to understand what you are asking/doing here, because you would not play with an 'investment' like that and certainly not play with it in the kitchen.

So I am not going to answer the orginal post about quality and quality control because the thread has gone beyond that.
I would like to ask you another question please.

What do you really want to know about BJD collecting and buying?
Or is it something about the buyers that you would like to know?

 

Then you're doing it wrong. You can't approach a hobby with intent to make money from it without a basic understanding of how it and the people in it work and still expect to make any sort of profit. The attitude you're taking will probably turn pretty much everyone off buying anything from you, honestly.
I call bull on the notion that you're 'not approaching BJDS as a hobby'. You make clothes for your dolls. You photograph them. You give them names and take pictures of them in your kitchen. You are, whether you like or believe it or not, a hobbyist and are approaching this as a hobby. If they were truly just investments, they'd be in boxes, in your closet, naked bald and possibly eyeless to preserve their colour and faceups, wouldn't they. You'd want to keep something you intend to sell on in the best condition possible, not sew dresses for it and pose it by your stove top.

And yet you didn't buy Volks? I can say, based on resin quality, durability and other things, that Volks is one of the BEST companies in this. They are the oldest and most established, possibly the most beloved, the one that makes the most consistent product, and hugely appealing to the vast majority of hobbyists. If you're really in it for profit, you'd buy their dolls, preferably limiteds, preferably popular ones, regardless of whether you personally like them or not.
By the way, ABJDs aren't really contemporary Asian art, as such. They're not the things some corporate bigwig is going to want to have sitting in their office or their chalet in the Alps or whatever. They're big creepy dolls that we dress up and paint and modify. No-one is going to be hanging an Akando on their office wall or displaying it in their den next to their 'cool' contemporary art pieces.

Uh...point out to me the evidence that this industry is dying. (And no, you having a problem with mismatching resin and a company having the audacity to shut down for a bit do not constitute evidence of this.) Shockingly, mate, the whole bloody world does NOT cater to Americans! We ARE NOT the only people in the world buying these dolls, nor are we the only people with the money to do so. Maybe Iplehouse is more concerned with something like moving to a bigger or better location so they can produce more dolls or otherwise offer their employees a better workspace and their customers more and better dolls? That their primary concern may not actually be "How much money can we make this month?" and could *actually* be something like "How can we offer our customers the best product possible so that they might come back?" "or just "How can we give our customers the best product for their money?" That one company is not going to go out of business because they shut down for two months. If people really, really want Iplehouse dolls they're going to wait and save their money and order when Iplehouse is actually open again. The fact that they are moving should indicate that they're doing better, that they're expanding and that, therefore, they are probably not 'dying'. Expanding is a sign of success, not failure, and I've no clue how you could think otherwise.

Not as rare as you think, actually. People buy lots of dolls, your dolls are not going to suddenly be the only ones around. Unless you've got a doll that's the only one of it's kind (as in, that's the only doll ever cast from the mold, no-other-of-its-sculpt-anywhere-in-the-world), you're not going to make as much money as you seem to be planning. What's more, we *know* how much these dolls go for. We *know* roughly how rare any given doll is. A standard issue, say, Luts El with factory faceup is never, ever going to go for as much as a Bermann, no matter how old it is. A lot of people don't actually value factory faceups as much as you think they would. We like customising our dolls. Many factory faceups frankly aren't that great and don't add much in the way of appeal to buyers. Many, many people will go for a doll with a nice custom faceup over one with a factory faceup that's the same as a hundred others in the world. You're still really, really not understanding this hobby, are you? Are your three dolls standard editions? If they're limited, how many are they limited to? Have they been out of their boxes? Are they from a super-popular company? Is there actually demand for them? If they are standards, is the mold still available from the company? You seem to have this idea that all doll companies everywhere are suddenly going to close overnight and that there won't still be an a abundance of dolls to buy if they do.

You mean, the industry that's been working just fine the same way for the last twelve years? The one that's growing every year? That industry? Yeah, I can see where it's *totally* on the verge of collapse. That's why Soom and Iplehouse and other companies totally aren't selling out limited editions all the time and why Volks doesn't make thousands of dollars every year.

What, all of thos *occasional* complaints that people have, that are usually due to one or two bad companies, or bad customer service reps, or a mistake in casting that usually gets fixed very quickly?
Also, you *do* realise that there are loads of other people who collect the many BJDS that *aren't* ABJDs that are on the market, yes? Those people are not always the same people who collect these BJDs, and they have their own places to discuss those dolls. We already *know* that there are BJDs that aren't from Asia. Some members even collect them in addition to ABJDs They just aren't the focus of this forum. We're not pretending they don't exist, they're just out of the scope of DoA, which is not a bad thing. We are NOT the only forum devoted to dolls on the internet, and I highly, HIGHLY doubt that just because we're a forum focused on ABJDs, we're going to become irrelevant.

Because then it wouldn't be an ABJD? It's like asking why the next great European car can't be made/designed in Nigeria. Once you take away the defining trait of something (i.e. being made/designed/produced in an Asian country, or at the very least sculpted in that aesthetic), it ceases to be that thing.

I'm having a very difficult time figuring out how you're managing to miss the point so very, very badly.

 

Well, none of it makes sense to me. He obviously doesn't have much money to spend ie this is an investment he can afford, yet he talks of leaving said investment for family. Most people are hoping for something that will pay off in their lifetime. For the same money, you could get some sort of antique which already has value and would be multiplied as the years go by. My mother love John Peel Jugs and Music Boxes. They have value which should only increase and can be picked up on ebay. BJDs seem a very strange choice.

 

Dude, Iplehouse has investors? Isn't the owner of the company their sculptor? They've had clothing delays due to a single person getting ill. We are not talking about a publicly traded company here. Due diligence on their translations? I buy products regularly from major chain stores that include translations obviously not done by a native speaker.

Due diligence on tax return season? US tax season doesn't even align with Canadian tax season, much less Korean tax season or anybody else's. Yes, people use their tax returns to buy dolls if they are from countries that have tax returns. In Japan, buying surges around bonus times (July and December, IIRC) and New Year's for young people; this would likely happen in China and Korea as well. Look around DoA, even, just as a representative of English-speaking BJD buyers and see how many are actually not from the US. LOTS. In Japan, March to April is a time of transition for many things; this may be the same in Korea, making this a good time for Iplehouse to move.

This is and very likely will remain a rarefied, oddball industry. Dying off? Volks closed some stores, but also opened bigger ones, and has more events than ever planned this year. Off the top of my head, Iplehouse, Fairyland, Dollzone, Leeke, and Volks are developing new lines, Soom's reviving some of theirs and churning out multiple LE lines a month . . . None of this says impending doom to me. If a global recession didn't kill the industry, I don't know what else would. Petroleum disappearing, maybe, at which point the alternative materials go, too.

There are people on this forum who have been involved in BJDs since the beginning; there are people here who have made and sold BJDs themselves; there are experienced dealers; there are experienced sculptors and artists; please don't be condescending and tell them how things are going to go in their hobby/business when they're in a much better position to make predictions. I'm not including myself in the above category, being just an obsessed BJD fan, but I'm afraid I'm still taking my prediction over yours: BJDs will not be grand investments in the future, and the industry's going to keep on keeping on.

 

Hm, I agree that the ABJD industry will eventually cease to be so popular as it is now, but I don't agree with the timelines at all. I may not be as experienced in the hobby as those who've seen it from the start (I've only discovered these dolls in 2005) but right now I'm seeing an exponential growth spurt.

When I started out there were already quite a few companies, but compared to the number currently existing they seem nothing...in the last 2-3 years huge amounts of new companies started, some bigger with full lines and even more micro-companies who are only making doll heads and are run by 1-2 individual artists. Actually quite a few of these recent small companies come from western countries, so westerners already do contribute to the industry - however not all of them fit into the aesthetic focus of this particular forum, so only a part of them are seen daily here - one will have to visit other doll forums to see the true size of this niche hobby.

In my country tax returns align with Iplehouse's reopening. Now I'm not saying that IH is matching their business schedule to Hungary (though we have a very lively ABJD community...consisting mostly of poor students), but when their primary target population is in their own country, I don't see why it would make sense to take the American tax returns into account.

All in all, I just don't see the dying of this hobby right now...what I see is the continuation of a growth spurt for a few years, then a long stagnation as the number of new enthusiasts match the number of people leaving the hobby, and companies establishing themselves rather than seeing a new dollmaker every 2 weeks. And only after that do I expect to see a slow decline in interest...I really can't fathom how anyone can expect the sudden extinction of a hobby in the middle of its initial growth...but I'm not educated in business, I'm just a logical person...

 

Lol. And this is exactly why I've decided not to sell my dolls. I love the hobby, I'm in it because it's fantastic to create your own doll, it's great to finally see him in that softly glowing resin and indeed the excitement when that perfectly cured piece come out of the mold for the first time? That's priceless. But these kind of customers... they'd only give me a headache. It's not worth the little money I would make.

^This. Small artists will most likely play even with their sales and I consider them more as very talented hobbyists who want to share their work with people who enjoy it than corporations. I think the only companies that do (suddenly) make money are those who created a doll that became really popular, like the Soom Monthlies or Volks Silver Coin dolls. Those companies are able to grow and turn out like the money-making businesses the OP seems to think all doll-shops are.

If you want to start your own company don't kid yourself that you're going to be a milionaire. No matter how perfect your business strategies are, you're in the wrong hobby to make that kind of money.

 

QFT.

By the way, Hugo. Like others have already said: America's way is not the way of the world. If you want to be a good artist I suggest you travel around a bit. That's what I was told when I went to art school. To visit different countries, 'cause even other western societies can have a totally different approach to things than you're used to. And it's not stupid of them, it's not wrong. It's just different. And when you're confronted with other view points, your art tends to get better. (you = general)

 

I recommend then you learn about investing. A BA in Fineart is worth squat when it comes to any of this (and doesn't even involve the making and manufacturing of this sort of product; it's to do with illustration and photography etc).

If you want to make money, go invest in Volks. Go buy their limiteds, clothing, spend money on that and travelling to the Dolpas. Then, put them all away somewhere safe. Dig them out once the market comes back (as your believe it'll be over in 5 years) and you can make your money that way.

 

Actually, if you take a look at the collectible doll market in general - for example, by looking at reports from industry shows such as Toy Fair or IDEX - you are bound to notice that ball joints have become quite a bit of a trend these days. There are many non-Asian doll companies, large and small, American and European, that are offering ball-jointed dolls these days: Superdoll, Kimberly Lasher, Goodreau, Kish, Senson, Tonner, to name but a few.

Many of these have been designed by European or American doll artists that are already well-known and popular in the general doll collectors´ circles. While they are off-topic on DoA, due to the focus of this particular forum, they seem to be doing well with collectors in general and, being the work of renowned doll artists, are likely to hold a certain value in those circles, who have a different attitude to dolls as investments than is prevalent among ABJD fans.
Some of these companies use resin, others offer vinyl or porcelain, so the problems inherent in the resin medium are not necessarily present in all of these "non-Asian BJDs".

So, what you are looking for is actually already around and doing as well as the ABJD industry - it´s just that both are catering to different markets that have different expectations as to customer service, wait and production times, financial investments, and even the "play value" and aesthetics of the dolls. The ABJD industry will neither die nor does it need to change to adapt to the needs of the general doll collectors´ market: It´s doing fine as it is, it is simply a different market.

 

You keep saying that Iplehouse closed down for two months but it didn't. At the start of those two months they released a new limited, Arvid, and have released two new basic BID's as well as new outfits plus ran their normal CDS. Yes, they had a sale on their dolls and many of them are sold out now but that was the whole purpose of their sale--to clear out their on hand stock to make their move easier. People have taken advantage of that sale which is a pretty smart move on their part and I would imagine a number of those US buyers used their tax money to buy a doll on sale.

The only thing I can think of is that you wanted something on Iple that's sold out.


Iplehouse is an example of why this the present industry is dying. I can assure you that they did not do their due diligence before translating their site into English. They are closed down for two months during a period of time when Americans have millions of dollars of tax return money to spend. Sure, they don't have to cater to us, but I bet their investors don't understand that money is on the table and the doors are closed.

 

In terms of the 16 inch "fashion doll" market if you look at the Fashion doll board, Prego, you'll see that the "hot" dolls right now are not the mass produced Tonner, MA or Integrity but Sybarites, Ficon and especially Diva Dolls. All three are resin and "ball" jointed. They are all very limited, sold directly and in the case of Ficon and Diva Dolls made by small BJD sized Asian companies.

 

Hugobop.

1) We are many companies' secondary market. They have buyers in their home countries too. They are not dependent on us for our business. Plus, within the Western world countries vary, so why would you expect everything to cater to American sensibilities?

2)The hobby has been growing -- now nothing keeps up that kind of growth forever, but the idea of the hobby being in the process of dying is pretty silly, IMO. There is not one thing happening to suggest that.

3)There are ball jointed dolls not made in Asia. Some are relevant to this forum, some are not. Some people here collect other types of dolls too, others stick with DoA on-topic dolls, because that's the style they prefer. Most people don't really care where the doll is made, but they do care how it is made and what it looks like. A lot of Western designed dolls from existing doll companies (as in they made other dolls first) do not have the same kind of look as ABJDs, and there for have more cross over appeal to other doll collectors than appealing widely to the abjd community.

4) DoA is the largest English language forum for this type of doll. It is not the be all and end all of doll forums, but it is a good resource for hobbyists. I'm not sure why you think it is irrelevant, exactly. It's just very focused on one type of doll, because it's freaking HUGE. There has to be someway to keep things manageable around here and a tight focus is the way it's done.

5) You are not showing much business sense, so maybe you need to get down off your high horse.

6) Whether or not you actively participate in the hobby is up to you. Even if you don't, that does not preclude you from learning about it and understanding it. We -- the people who you've been so arrogant to -- are the folks who buy these dolls. You cannot bank on people out of no where purchasing abjds far in the future as fine art pieces. They really aren't the same thing as the Asian art that is so popular right now, and if you are the big art person you said you where, you would realize that. I think abjds are gorgeous too, and completely worth the money, but that doesn't mean that they're going to appeal to lots of people outside the hobby 50 years in the future. Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together would realize this.

7) If you have a problem with the dolls, the hobby, the hobbyists go find something else to do. If you like it here, great! Then stop soapboxing -- you aren't helping yourself, and at this point seem more trollish than genuinely interested in this topic of discussion.

 

Unfortunately, since you -- or your grandkids, whoever -- want to sell to hobbyists, it would be advisable to learn about it. That whole logic of 'you need to know the market you're selling to' applies here, also. Not learning about the market you'd be selling to would not be doing your due diligence.

Like several others, I'd suggest looking into other art forms as investment properties. Seriously. Ones that don't degrade so easily are out there. Ones with a substantially higher potential for returns are absolutely out there.

See, you actually -do- get it. At least in part... even if you're not quite realizing it.

Er... who? And that wouldn't be surprising during a global recession either way. I suspect a great many luxury goods producers say much the same.

1. Iplehouse is not closed. They are still taking orders. I placed mine within the two months of time they've noted for their moving sale. They are not -restocking items- unless it is to shuffle them from one website to the other during this time upon request, as they maintain three sites and the stock is not shared amongst them -- one Korean, one Japanese, one English.

2. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that Iplehouse or Elfdoll has investors. These are not large companies. If you can find Iplehouse or Elfdoll on a stock exchange somewhere, I'd actually be genuinely fascinated to see it. (Not said snarkily, that would be weirdly interesting.)

3. These may be your preferred companies, but they aren't necessarily the most popular companies presently. So why would their performance be your indicator of the entirety of the market? Again, no offense intended -- I like both companies also and own dolls from both -- but did it ever occur to you that you may have backed the wrong horses? Or that the hobby isn't dying in the first place? (The latter being more accurate, from my perspective.)

Er. If you're taking them out and costuming them, they aren't untouched. Hate to break it to you, but... it's true. Also, if the hobby dies off, there would likely be a glut of them available from people leaving the hobby -- and not a lot of buyers if there are very few hobbyists. That does not sound like an ideal market to me personally, or even a good one in any way, and I don't need a business degree to tell me that.

Who are these other people? I haven't seen them speaking up. Sure, it would be wise for them to lurk and not speak of intentions to become scalpers, obviously, but scalpers have been in the hobby since the the first limiteds rolled out of the molds. It's nothing new. They're 'investors', too. And they've been around for ages. There's nothing at all about them that is a sign of impending doom, in fact, when the scalpers move away from a hobby, that's a better indicator that it's dead, and there's no money left to be sucked from its bones.

...so supply and demand isn't a factor here? If there's more supply than demand, and the 'auction houses are full of' them, yes, the price points are not going to be through the roof.

Since I tend to stick with hobbies for an age, all I can say is that I'll likely be around to see which of these predictions comes true -- or if either of them do.

What baffles me is that you don't see that it absolutely has done so. I was not here at the dawn of all things BJD, but the people who were have shared a great many stories about how difficult it used to be to get dolls. Adding English language sites, for example, is an enormous change for many of these businesses -- and it was an adaptation to suit the needs of the customers they were attracting. It would be foolish to overlook that aspect of the way the hobby -- and the businesses that supply it -- has/have evolved.

As has already been mentioned, Dollfair tried to do precisely that. It seems to have collapsed.

The the collectors of the fashion BJDs, or other off-topic BJDs, DoA is already irrelevant. DoA and the dolls on topic here continue to flourish -- as do the others. Also, there are on topic dolls from Western sculptors on DoA. Some are North American, some Australian, some European. Because of this, I can't really say I see the same things you do. I don't see the impending doom. What I do see, however, is that it'd be good for your resale value if that doom never comes, since you'll have a market to sell your dolls to when the time comes. That is not a bad thing.

 

A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group

A recent example, The Hill published an op-ed piece by Markos Moulitsas of the liberal blog Daily Kos titled "Democrats: Ignore 'Concern Trolls' ". The concern trolls in question were not Internet participants; they were Republicans offering public advice and warnings to the Democrats. The author defines "concern trolling" as "offering a poisoned apple in the form of advice to political opponents that, if taken, would harm the recipient".[20]

*wikipedia.

 

On the subject of Iplehouse, prior to the introduction of CDS all the sold out SE RS dolls would go up for sale in cycles. When they weren't on sale, it would say sold out. Like it was said above, with the CDS system now in place those sold out pages provide a better look at the doll. The CDS pages themselves are very minimal with the body and head choices . If you want to see better examples you need the original sales pages, it would simply be ridiculous to post 50+ pictures on a CDS page.

As for their whole site being out of stock, this is recent, as in the past few weeks. They gave costumers enough notice and with the discount, the dolls went fast. CDS will start up again at the beginning of April (If I'm not mistaken) which means said "sold out" pages once again hold a purpose.

Besides, it's a spring move. By clearing out old inventory, focusing on their CDS (which they've basically said is easier to run iirc) they're making sure they'll head into convention season fresh, with no outstanding orders or problems. And since Summer is around the corner, it leaves them in a perfect place to release a few new dolls, remove the sold out box on their basic releases and jump into their annual summer sale with no baggage.

Seems to make sense to me, I'm sure they make more money off summer sales than north american tax season (and I *know* some of us hold on to said tax dollars for the summer sale.)

 

So you say you're not here to play and enjoy BJDs as a hobby?

News flash: DoA is a hobbyists forum, not a business place.

Please feel free to take yourself elsewhere, to a business-oriented forum rather than coming here trying to preach to us who consider BJDs fun and play about how we're so blind to how the industry could be improved. I guarantee that the vast majority of people here care about the art and play of BJDs, not the monetary investments and industrial side of it. We're here to create art, have fun, and support small companies as they continue to make art. I am quite certain there are business-oriented forums where you would be much happier.

 

Well, if you're not a troll, you're certainly a complete >insert colourful British slang<. Or at the very least a rather bizarrely misguided scalper. To be honest mate, you don't really come across as a hard-nosed investor, able to put his business acumen where his mouth is to make money. More like, as you said, a middle-aged man sitting on a couch when he should be asleep.
Perhaps you would find it a more profitable exercise to delete your account here on DOA and instead enroll on a business course or perhaps one of those lovely pyramid schemes. I hear dusters and clothes pegs make excellent investments.

 

It seems like Hugobopp thinks all these doll companies are enormous corporations with hundreds of employees. The vast majority of them are run by a few people, some by one or two. I'd be shocked if any of these companies are getting filthy rich selling dolls. Even if a doll maker can sell dolls for a goodly chunks of money, I can guarantee they're not making enormous profits, once time and labor (and aggravation) are factored in.