Uncanny Valley

JennyNemesis: I couldn't agree more!

 

LOLZ, Jenny, so true!

 

JennyNemesis - we are not worthy! (Almost exactly my thoughts on Victoria Beckham et al, but expressed much more succinctly!) xD

 

Thx... I know I shouldn't rant so much, but I always object to the erasure of real women from anything. ^.^ Mind you, those girls MIGHT be absolutely beautiful in real life, but with the photography styles these days, you can't even tell! Magazines have become on par with those "glamor shot" studios that do the portfolios for child-pageant stars: they take a perfectly pretty living thing, and hyperidealize it into something that's only lifelike. Idealize too much & you get a grotesque.

I could take a photograph of my lifeless doll, do about the same amount of Photoshopping to its joints & its shape, and it'd come out looking as human as one of those ads. My un-Photoshopped Limhwa Mano already looks more warmblooded than certain photos of poor Victoria Beckham, and he has a more natural-looking tan. I find today's magazine-models every bit as uncanny as a doll, and almost as uncanny as ventriloquist dummies.

Ventriloquist dummies. Now that's the other end of my Valley....

 

It is the thing about disappearing women that worries me. I think a lot of younger women want to disappear, and that's what anorexia is (partly) about. But I also think some of the dolls represent odd ideas about feminine beauty - that's why I don't much care for the bodies on Volks SD16s (though that could get OT)!

But I don't think BJDs fall into the Uncanny for me. (I think I've heard it referred to as just 'the Uncanny' without the valley?). Their size and stylisation makes them seem unthreatening.

Agree with you about ventriloquists dummies, though. And some shop mannequins (post Dr Who and the Autons!)*.


*For those who are not Whovies, the Autons look like shop dummies that come to life :/

 

Heh! Great comments you guys... I felt that way when I saw the latest pic of Courtney Love. She's had so many plastic surgeries that she doesn't look like herself, and doesn't even really look human to me, I must say. It's like those who've had too many surgeries look more like each other, and also not quite human anymore. Remember the Manimals? They look like them. Maybe that's why anthro bjds kind of gross me out. ^^;;

Raven

 

As a photographer of dolls, I feel its their ability to meander into the uncanny valley that actually attracted me to them. I started off photographing humans...but human models are fickle creatures who can be moody and undependable. So I moved to small dolls of porcelain or plastic, but I was always looking for dolls that looked more human and then one day I stumbled upon ABJD's and almost fell out of my chair some years back. I just had to have one and in no time I did.

I love how they skirt an odd line with their appearance. And I now base my doll purchases on just how "almost" human they look.

Now, the first ABJD I purchased was a Volks Nono Pureskin and I'm at odds with her right now because she looks too "Anime" and not quite human enough....So I may be selling her soon though part of me thinks of this as sacrilegious to some degree since she was my first...

A while back I even had a German doll, a life size Annette Himstedt. Those of you knee deep in the dolli-verse may know that Annette crafts dolls that periodically go above and beyond the uncanny valley, lol, and this doll was the size of a real live 5-6 year old child. I had many a visitor totally taken aback when they'd walk into our place and see her sitting at a little table with a book in her hands. Some would be completely distracted to the point where I'd have to put her in another room so we could chat about something else other than her. For a variety of reasons I ended up selling her (she was barely articulated despite being so human in appearance and costing an arm) but I still long to eventually purchase another doll of human like proportions not just for photos but because I find people's reactions to be fascinating to be honest.

My mom loves my photos but admits that the dolls creep her the hell out. And I've many friends that feel the same way. And these are friends that are into Anime and games and all that. Sasha Alexzandre, my Elfdoll Standard K, is my ABJD most of my friends cite as giving them the "willies" the most. They say its something about his gaze that just unnerves them a bit.

I've one friend that has issues coming over because she says I have way too many things on display that have eyes, lol.

Ahhh...Psychology is a fascinating thing, I must say and it's awesome to read everyone's responses on this thread.

 

That is a shame, Dudie - I hoped someone like Courtney Love would avoid all that rubbish. Mind you, I can't remember the Manimals.

Possibly I'm glad I can't! (Only like some anthros...)

 

That hyperrealistic Mano of mine, though, sets off the uncanny valley of some people who otherwise have no problem with the dolls. I can see where he'd be a bit firmly in the Grotesque zone for sensitive folks. Friend of mine, she loves the big macho EIDs, she likes my gothy Volks Tony and spooky Soom Namu, but when she visits she asks me to put Stavros on the shelf with the least light on it, because he's just too real. ^^

Yeah! Michael Jackson, Joan Rivers and Diana Ross = if you pull your ears back far enough, you will end up looking like all three of them. Poor Courtney. We liked ya better the old way.

And, talking of uncanny, d00d-- has anybody noticed how poor Victoria Beckham is already turning into Wendy O. Williams? *tsk* The writing is on the wall, girlfriend; Father Time is comin' down on ye like a hard, hard rain.

 

Here are the Manimals. I think it's a great art concept, but I don't think Courtney et al are *trying* to look like these guys!! ^^:;

http://www.daniellee.com/

I too admired Courtney, but now I just pity her. For all her defiant attitude, even she succumbed to the pressure to conform. I don't think we can imagine that sort of pressure, and it's well known she's got major emotional problems. It made me picture Kurt Cobain as a 'metrosexual' of today, quel horreur.

As for Mrs Beckham and her ilk? I pity them too, but ignore them. I don't follow any celeb/fashion stuff, imho, it's all aesthetically bankrupt. ^^:;

Raven

 

I personally haven't see a BJD yet that was realistic enough to illicit and uncanny valley reaction, but I have certainly seen dolls in the 27-30cm range with so much detail that this was a real issue! The following photos are off-topic for BJD discussion, but they are worth looking at for some perspective on the Uncanny Valley as it pertains to dolls issue. These are 12" dolls (articulated action figures to some) from Hot Toys and DiD respectively. If you check these guys out, then go back to looking at BJDs, I think your UV problems will be over :-)

Uncanny Scarlet Johansson
http://www.toy-world.com.hk/forum/a...20100510_63a87264b474156ef31cNGGSMMVpQuCB.jpg

Uncanny Ed Harris:
http://125.215.204.130/products/wwii/80071/80071-1.jpg

 

OK, now I'm a bit, not spooked, but that's a bit yukky, poor Ed Harris.... are you sure these aren't pre-production photoshop mock-ups? It's pretty standard to do those to show clients what the finished thing will look like, even though the finished thing never actually looks that real.

 

You know, even from some of the more simple bjds (ones that may not have a fancy expensive faceup or wardrobe) I think I may have an "uncanny valley" type feeling. Part of me just is prepared for them to move or make a noise at any minute, as silly as that may be. This may have been caused by my already overactive imagination and also having watched "Chobits".

About the model thing, that is a good point with a lot of very popular magazine images. The photos are so altered that it really is reminiscent of doll photography. Luckily when my mom was in the modeling business (many years ago) it wasn't like that for her (no airbrushing, she didn't starve herself either).

My brother (who is obsessed with weird art films) must have the uncanny thing going on with my dolls because when I took one over to his house once he kept having her face the wall. You'd think he wouldn't be that weirded out since he has David Lynch's and Alejandro Jodorowsky's entire collections on his dvd shelf.

 

The Ed Harris is a DiD Battle of Stalingrad production figure, and it really looks like that. This level of detail is not uncommon for 1/6 scale military models. The Scarlet Johansson is a pre-production figure, but not a photoshop mockup, that doll has been photographed by convention goers and magazine reviewers from every imaginable angle, and it really looks that good. Whether the production version will be quite as polished, probably not...

 

Adam, that IS scary then! Luckily my eyesight is going so I doubt I'd be able to pick up that much detail on a tiny action figure! How on earth does Ed Harris feel about that one in particular... actors must be so used to being sent pre-production stuff to sign off on, and taking a look at them and snorting with laughter... I imagine Ed Harris was violently sick when he saw that... a literal mini-me. Yuk, frankly! Sorry if you are into these figures, but that definitely is a bridge too far for me.

 

This is a very interesting discussion. I had never heard of 'Uncanny Valley' before but after reading your explanation I couldn't help but notice how it explains a lot of the differences between doll owners in this hobby, based on whether or not it affects them.

My boyfriend is slightly creeped out at my dolls but as he keeps saying he's 'getting better'. It freaks him out that he feels as though the dolls are staring into his soul and judging him. But at the same time, when my doll was sat next to him he instinctively reached over and tried to put him in a comfortable pose. And I often cover my dolls in a blanket so that they won't get cold. My boyfriend's dad is so creeped out by them that he refuses to touch my doll. And when other people handle him there is always a strong voice at the back of my mind that is carefully watching how they hold him, if it looks like it is a careless position I want to defend him.

In fact, I think I came to resent my first doll just because she was outside the 'Valley' and I expected her not to be. I was attached enough to make my gran promise she'd say goodnight to her when I was away but at the same time she was just an inanimate object, she didn't speak or move and I couldn't sense any sort of life. I agonized over this for quite a while and eventually put it down to not 'bonding' as a lot of people do and decided to sell her. With my second doll it was completely different, he has a fixed personality in my mind and for some reason I think he has some sort of spark, like a willingness to do good. For that reason I'm attached to him, it doesn't feel like he's a meaningless object to me.

I never put any thought into the psychology behind the attachment so I'm really glad I read this, it makes a lot of sense to me now. And hopefully it will stop me selling as many dolls in the future.

 

I actually think the DiD figurines (and other wowzer 1:6 figurine brands) are SO realistic that they have climbed out of the Valley altogether!

To me, the Uncanny sensation is "not quite real enough, not quite unreal enough". But those figures are so really really really real, there's nothing creepy about them. It's more like photorealism, or like the very best wax-works. Plastic Ed Harris, there, he is textured like a real human, they somehow captured the fragile crepe-looking texture of a balding scalp, his whiskers and eyebrows and crags and creases are all distinct, he catches the light like a human, he's shaped like a human. (By contrast: this. O_x)

Aesthetically, morally, evolutionarily bankrupt. Not worth the time it takes to focus my eyeballs. XD But if you subscribe to snark blogs, you get fed some really irresistibly gnarly bits (thank the blog FourEyedBat for the pic of "Wendy & Posh, separated at birth?").

Wow, really, judging? Sounds more like a guilty conscience... can't blame a toy for that.... And if he's scared of being judged by dolls, I wonder how he feels sitting next to your father! Well, good on him for trying to overcome his aversion, anyway.

 

Holy crap! Is that a real ad? That is really freaky, and images like that do not encourage me to buy products *blech*

Little resin people don't creep me out at all whether they're highly stylized or highly realistic, but that's because they're dolls and can look all sorts of different ways. Humans, on the other hand, can't go to extremes without being physically unwell which can create some pretty disturbing imagery.

 

'S funny ...I just replied to another thread about doll "creepiness" with a mention of the uncanny valley. I didn't even notice this thread till just now.

The important thing to remember is that the "uncanny valley" response is different for everyone and is totally involuntary. Some people actually get physically ill when confronted with a human-looking figure that looks too "real", and they can't help it. Also, some people (especially adolescent males, for some reason) will respond to the unpleasant physical reaction by lashing out and saying tactless things. Not everyone who says "Damn, that's an ugly doll!" is having an "uncanny valley" reaction, but for those who are, it could simply be an attempt to defuse the perceived subconscious threat presented by the doll's disturbing (to them) appearance. Not that I haven't wanted to backhand someone who insults my doll, but I try to remind myself that Megumi and Chae-ri don't have feelings that can be hurt.

 

I'm with this poster... For me, the uncanny valley, the animistic spark, whatever other factors, are things that appeal to me rather than drive me away. I like having a little doll I can empathise with, regardless of whether it's really just resin or not (and I know i'll have a lot more fun with it if I don't think of it as "just resin" but let myself believe in the spark of life!)