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Uncanny Valley

Dec 18, 2008

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    1. I can understand why people find dolls creepy or why they fall into the uncanny valley for some. Myself, I tend to like more stylized dolls with large eyes, so I guess they look a bit less human, and of course you'd be hard pressed to find a lanky adolescent/pre-adolescent aged girl who's only about a foot and a half tall, so the size steps down the realism even more.

      There have been at least a couple of cases where people have mistaken reborn dolls for actual babies in danger (there was one I read about recently where police thought a reborn left in a car on a sunny day was a dying infant and they smashed the car windows to rescue it- only to find out that it was just a doll), so I think that type of doll is probably more likely to cause the uncanny valley reaction. Heck, even I find them a bit creepy! :sweat

      I think photos of BJDs are a bit different though, since with the right props and photography they can really look almost like a human being... except, of course, that their features and proportions are all wrong.
       
      #21 skwerlie, Dec 18, 2008
    2. I don't personally find them at all unsettling, and I don't associate them with being corpse-like or dead. Actually, I feel very strongly the opposite--that they have some spark of life to them (which depending on how a person feels about that could also be considered disturbing)--actually, when people have thought my dolls were creepy I attributed it to how alive they seem rather than dead. There faces and eyes are extremely expressive, and the poses they fall into are often very human-like, so even if they can't get up and move about on their own, they don't come off as stiff or unnatural--sort of as if there's a sense of movement or the possibility of movement even if they just happen to be sitting there for the moment. So I associate any creepyness people find about them with having life while at the same time being an inanimate object--two things that for most people don't seem to mix (it doesn't trouble me, though).

      That's not saying that someone wouldn't react to a doll that way, but in my own personal experience dolls either seem to feel very vacant and dollish or very alive (like my resin crew). What actually falls into the uncanny valley to me is the way ghosts are often depicted moving in horror flicks--such as in the Ring when the girl crawls out of the well and moves towards the screen. There's a jerky not rightness about the movement that instinctively sets off alarm bells and a sense of 'that's not right!'
       
      #22 Taco, Dec 18, 2008
    3. I'm more freaked out with an unpainted reborn doll I own over my BJDs because I associate it's human looks with sentience and expect the doll to move, breath, think etc. So I keep it covered a lot of the time. :lol:
       
      #23 Freezeframe, Dec 18, 2008
    4. If you look at the graph associated with the wikipedia entry on the uncanny valley hypothesis, they include bunraku puppets as located within the "valley". I suppose BJD would place somewhere very close to them.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
       
      #24 Flubbybunni, Dec 18, 2008
    5. When I first saw BJDs it was the artist bisque dolls of Etsuko Miuro, which were quite uncanny and disturbing to me. But most resin bjds are too stylized to really fall into this category for me.

      I thought I was totally desensitized to dolls/doll imagery when I stumbled onto this youtube video late at night. I watched it with the sound off and felt a prickly kind of unease about the whole thing - for me this doll and the way it is moving is too close to human... but in a way that seems wrong. But I also found the experience really interesting because it was so unexpected...
       
      #25 candygears, Dec 18, 2008
    6. I think that because we are bjd lovers, we know more and can distinguish more subtle differences between bjds, like between the large eyed girls and realistic minimees. To almost every single guy (and several women) I've ever met, dolls are "creepy" because they resemble humans so closely and they think they might come to life and "kill" them. Most of my friends are guys and they hate my girl and don't distinguish her from more anime looking dolls, although I find her much more realistic. In this sense, it really depends on the person.

      At first I thought bjds were creepy and fit into the uncanny valley but now I generally do not think so. However, I'm trying similar experiments in photography with the belief that we can all portray our dolls in the uncanny valley via photos and how we set them up. Even the most disproportioned bjds I've seen can look shockingly uncanny when posed and lit the right way.

      Also, how does the uncanny valley theory explain when I say that at first, I was shocked and repulsed by Real Dolls, bjds, etc, but now I'm extremely attracted to that feeling?

      This is such a great topic, thanks for bringing it up!
       
      #26 nessa, Dec 19, 2008
    7. I think my uncanny valley is very narrow. I don't see any bjds/dolls/CG characters in this light.
       
      #27 Nefla, Dec 19, 2008
    8. Thanks for posting that link…perhaps it should be edited into the first post? I think there are some misapprehensions in this thread, possibly stemming from the bare-bones explanation.

      For example, a few people have mentioned that BJDs don’t fall into the uncanny valley because they’re so stylized. While I certainly believe that for those people, BJDs are not uncanny, I’d like to point out that being stylized is one of the things that can PUT things in the uncanny valley for other people. Like me—I’m not so much bothered by something that looks real but doesn’t move (say, a Real Doll or a MiniMee), but I really don’t like clowns—which are actually humans, but with grossly stylized features. I almost threw a fit at my boyfriend the other day when he was playing around with face-manipulating software on his webcam—not because he moved any differently, but because it distorted his features. Some of the dolls that I find myself creeped out by are those with features that are too stylized (for example, the NotDoll Princess sculpt, whose eyes look proportionally even bigger than my Soony’s). Of course, I’m also the kind of weirdo who, even as she’s creeped out by something, is also drawn to it, haha.

      So it’s important to keep in mind that the uncanny valley is sort of multi-dimensional: for some people, it’s about the motion aspect; for others it’s about proportions; for still others it’s about things like colouration.


      My guess is that it perhaps has something to do with this:
      As you get to know something, whether it’s your and your friends’ BJDs because you’re a collector or corpses because you’re a coroner, the strange qualities will stop standing out as much, first because they become familiar in and of themselves, and second because through familiarity you begin to focus on other details. In the BJD world, it’s like going from “Omg, those dolls are kind of creepily lifelike” to “Uhh…is that a Volks doll?” to “Wow, are those Ginarolo eyes? They look fantastic!”

      Also, some people, when faced with something that evokes a strong response, like to avoid that thing, while others like to explore it. I’m sure we all have friends who love roller coasters and anything with a death-defying thrill—and other friends who prefer to avoid such things. It’s the same with the uncanny valley: some people, while they may experience an initially unfavourable reaction, will seek out safe ways to explore the feeling; others would like to avoid the feeling entirely, and that’s where you’ll get people who wish you would put the damn dolls away already.
       
      #28 undermost salamander, Dec 19, 2008
    9. I don't know, it's kind of odd. I have always sort of disliked porcelain dolls because they seem sort of dead to me and their eyes are often set facing forward and not aligned. (with one pointing slightly in the wrong direction cross-eyed even) And when I first saw BJDs, I thought it was a real person, it was a strange experience. Instead of scaring me off, I was fascinated. It was a little beautiful model, and something pretty to play with, very different then what I had seen of dolls before. It has become easier for me to tell the dolls aren't real as I've kept searching the forums though. Sometimes I still run into a photo that I think is very real looking, the Iplehouse dolls look really real to me.
       
      #29 delicate disaster, Dec 19, 2008
    10. I'll agree with the poster who said their uncanny valley is very narrow. Mine is too, I guess.

      I'm not even creeped out by realistic dolls, like Reborn babies and other realistic dolls. I'd probably be freaked out by a corpse, but I think it would be more because of "OMG DEAD PERSON" versus "That looks unnatural, therefore freaky". (Well no, actually. There's this rather unknown japanese doll artists whose doll positively creep me out, especially with the way the website presents them. At the same time, they absolutely fascinate me. I'd love to own a few if I had the money, but I know rents are NEVER going to appreciate them)

      I know my mother mentioned she thinks my doll looks dead, and I can't understand why. He... is standing, his arms in a conversational pose. I don't think dead people stand or converse, unless you believe in ghosts, though that's a whole new can of worms. I don't know if her opinion of him changed, because I think she warmed up to him a bit; and my new boy is probably not human enough for her to care. But either way.... this uncanny valley thing, along with pediophobia, is one of those things I guess I'll never understand.
       
      #30 Lelite, Dec 19, 2008
    11. I feel the same way. Those uncanny feelings that I used to find unsettling are now attractive, even exotic. As apposed to just getting used to or being normalized to the Uncanny Valley effect I'm more intrigued by it to the point that it is something that enhances the look as apposed to "creepifying" it.

      I think it has to do with the common occurrence of the uncanny images. If the uncanny image happens enough there are two options for your brain to take. You can either accept the image as something you dislike and try to avoid it, or you can find something pleasing about the image and accept it as something positive or intriguing.

      These responses are fantastic, by the way. I'm finding more and more an exploration of what draws the line between a humanesque object being empathized with to the point where the initial reaction is a human social reaction (whether repulsion or intrigue) and people who are more logically minded and don't seem to have that reaction.

      I think it all comes down to a difference of "Wow, that doll looks so real!" versus "Wow, look at how different that doll can be from a human while still keeping a humanoid structure!"

      It's really interesting how the past shapes our perception of the Uncanny Valley as well. The Raggedy Anne recollection is especially poignant and shaping of what becomes uncanny and disturbing as apposed to accepted as is, a doll and nothing more.

      Reborns are something that, for me, bothers me on a psychological level. Replacing a dead child with a child who looks exactly like them and does not move is, personally, very disturbing. But just as I've eventually found these BJD dolls incredibly intriguing and how I've always found robots that are in the Uncanny Valley very intriguing it is possible that if I delve deeper into the art of making Reborns I will find them just as intriguing.

      I think someone had asked in the thread for the wikipedia article to the definition of Uncanny Valley put in the first post. I was going to do this initially but decided against it as I was curious if people would become intrigued enough to look for the term on their own. It delights me that people have. But if more people request it I'll go ahead and add the link.

      Thank you all for your fascinating opinions and ideas!
       
      #31 green, Dec 19, 2008
    12. My thoughts exactly. I should have read more comments before posting my own.
       
      #32 green, Dec 19, 2008
    13. He is standing. He is in a conversational pose. But he is not conversing. He's not talking. He's, possibly, not staring at anyone nor engaging anyone. Granted, he's a doll, but the fact that the pose is so natural but nothing else is (like how many people do you know stand in a conversational pose for a day or more without ever conversing). This could explain why your mother thinks that the doll is so unnatural. He's seeming to do a completely human thing but it isn't adding up for a real human having real conversation.

      I agree with an above poster as well who said familiarity seems to bring forth some sort of acceptance. If you're talking to a person who has an ear for a nose there is something fundamentally wrong that goes off in your head. But if continue to converse with them, become friends even, the ear for a nose soon becomes a secondary characteristic even thought it, initially, might have been the only thing you saw. It might even come to a point where you introduce someone to your friend and later that person pulls you aside and asks you about your friend's ear nose to which you are surprised because it's become such a small thing in the overall relationship that it wasn't an issue.

      So when someone comes up to you with amazement or confusion or disturbed about your dolls and you wonder why it might be just because you no longer see that the dolls fall into the Uncanny Valley for them or even relate to the perception and have to bring yourself back in order to empathize with their enthusiasm or concern.

      Does that make sense?

      Why do my one sentence responses always turn into paragraph?
       
      #33 green, Dec 19, 2008
    14. This is interesting to me- I've experienced how creepy dolls can be before. I've never seen anything creepy about them or heard any stories, but some porcelain dolls, and the lifelike baby dolls do creep me out, often. My grandmother used to have a little porcelain girl with a cute little sundress and these auburn curls- But the was she stared was just... Inhuman, I thought. It unsettled me so much that she moved it.

      Its different for me with BJDs. When I was younger, barbies were so unrealistic that they werent worth bothering with. With BJDs, its different than other dolls- maybe BECAUSE of the way they seem so emotive. My boy is quiet, but sometimes I see him do something cute- I'll put his wig on over his eyes wrong in a hurry after a nap, and he'll seem sleepy, or After telling a friend about him, I'll look down to see that his hand somehow fell over his eyes in embarassment... Once I was even walking home with him in the cold (It wasnt snowing though, and it wasnt too cold, so he was alright) and I looked down to see his arms crossed over his chest. Brr! ^^ Whereas Porcelain dolls just stare eerily, inhumanly at you... the closer sembalce and even animism in BJDs makes them wonderful, arborable, and just great. ^^ The only time I've ever had a bad feeling about any doll I've met was when I was Restringing My boy for the first time... in peices, he seemed so lifeless, and it made me extremely sad. more than that, it took me four hours to get him back together again. T_T

      Although, When I went to show him off, some people were quite put off- especially when I went to adjust his shirt, and took his head off to change them out. The disembodied head and the headless body with a hook protruding from the neck must have been creepy. ^^
       
      #34 Wings223, Dec 19, 2008
    15. Kino has never unnerved me or scared me, but he definitely scares a lot of other people, they say hes too life like and that he does remind them of a corpse.
      He has creeped me out only once when I put him on my chair then came back and he was on my bed....but besides that I just see him as a smaller, sweeter human that s very quiet.:)
       
      #35 Io Shadow, Dec 19, 2008
    16. I think for me that some dolls do fall into the Uncanny Valley, however I think that's just what appeals to me about them - the idea of blurring the lines between alive and not and just how much the boundaries of realism can be blurred or crossed.
       
      #36 dolls&tea, Dec 19, 2008
    17. People have been put off by my doll. But then I have a friend who's actually totally phobic of dolls, and LOVES Owen, actually she loves BJD's now and is getting her first one. Her response to them was this "I'm deathly afraid of normal dolls, like dolls people get when you're a kid, cause they look dead to me, BJD's look alive. Something about their eyes they look lifelike and not dead things and that's why I'm totally not afraid of them and love them"
       
      #37 eva_tsukino, Dec 19, 2008
    18. Dolls don't really creep me out, but I will admit that a BIG part of what has attracted me to a couple of my dolls is that they have something about them that is a bit eerie or "off" in a way that is unsettling--I personally find it beautiful, and though I don't feel uneasiness associated with it, I do sense that they have that capability moreso than some of my other dolls. My Ghost in the Shell II Gynoid BJD, for example, has this appeal for me. As does my first doll (the one in my avatar image), who was modded to have a frozen, insane smile. Her face never changes, her expression never moves or adjusts itself--she just keeps staring and smiling. And I love her for it.
       
      #38 curiouscourtships, Dec 19, 2008
    19. I happened to find this video on youtube while I was browsing for sculpting tips. :sweat

      It didn't outright scare me but I did find it vaguely disturbing:

      [warning: this video portrays a very realistic doll in stop motion (nothing like the cute narins and naraes at all)]

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU6vOphe_0A&feature=related

      Of course, I can't relate this one to any of my dolls but I can see why there are some people afraid of our dolls like they are. There is something about them having human-like features and being so poseable that hints at them being 'alive' but yet not at the same time.. And that causes people insecurity, which is a part of the human nature to fear the unknown. (ie. the climax in The Monkey's Paw)
       
      #39 ahyu, Dec 19, 2008
    20. I can understand the creepiness of dolls. BJDs generally do not have that creepy factor for me, as I've collected anime figurines and merchandise for years, and the anime-ish style of BJDs makes them seem less human to me. Not that that's necessarily bad.

      However, I am very put off of reborn dolls. I do not mean offense to anyone here who collects them when I say this. Seriously though, they look so realistic and intentionally so, but they do not move, they do not breathe and thus they look like a DEAD baby to me. And dead babies are NOT something I want to see. Reborn dolls seriously seriously give me the creep factor because of their apparent "deadness."

      And, well, this is creepy. Don't tell me it's not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYSGVvA4ojE
       
      #40 s0yuz, Dec 19, 2008
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