Uncanny Valley

Wow, this thread has been a really interesting read! I found out about the Uncanny Valley a while ago, before I got my first doll, but only a few days ago did I realize that this phenomenon might be responsible for all the people creeped out by dolls - so it's kind of neat that there's a whole thread here about it!

But yes, I believe it absolutely exists for BJDs (especially if you're not used to seeing toys in general or dolls in particular) and that there's a familiarity factor mixed in with it - the more time you spend around something, the less odd/pretty/ugly it will seem to you.

(And on a side note, following some of the names dropped in this thread, the RealDolls don't bug me as much as the Reborns. Oh lord, those things are scary. )

 

This is a really interesting topic. I have a few comments, they might be totally off, but here they are.
I've had a couple friends who had an uncanny valley reaction to my doll. The first, I am quite certain, only said the doll was creepy because society says the doll is creepy. She wasn't *looking* at the doll, she was *reacting* to the concept. As other posters have mentioned, many creepy dolls are in movies, and more and more often in television shows, like Supernatural. In fact, with this friend, and I think with other non-bjd owners, it's almost in vogue to be creeped out by a doll. Popular culture insists that you should be, and if "everyone" is creeped out by dolls, you would not be natural if you found them beautiful or human like. I argue this strictly for non-doll people, because we have had contact with dolls and have different expectations than the general public. But when this friend said that "dolls are creepy", she was not *seeing* my doll, she was *seeing* the dolls from popular culture.

My other friend was more of a conundrum. He admitted that there was no logical basis for his UV reaction, admitted that the doll was beautiful, not particularly lifelike, and would not in fact begin to move or start a killing spree. He himself didn't understand his reaction to the doll. I still don't understand, and I was a little upset with him because I considered him a logical, rational person, and couldn't comprehend his reaction to what is essentially a work of art. I looked in this forum hoping to find answers, and I think I'm closer to understanding. ^_^

As for me personally, the only times I find the dolls disturbing is when the eye placement is very wrong. This follows for humans too. One of my dad's friends has one glass eye. Most of the time I don't notice, but occasionally one eye will be fixed on me while his other eye is studying something else, and I have a UV reaction. I love my dad's friend, he's helped me with a lot of projects, so I feel very guilty for the creeped out reaction (not that I let it show, but it's the principal of the thing). I feel exactly the same way with misplaced eyes in dolls. I feel guilty for being uncomfortable, because the doll can't help it, and maybe the owner doesn't notice, but human eyes are on muscles that almost never move individually (eyes move in pairs, except when you can go cross-eyed) and dolls are so similar to humans that they should be the same way. Otherwise, I never really get creeped out by dolls. I think it's because the owners try so hard to pose them realistically, not in a way that only dolls can (heads on backwards, etc.).

I rambled, sorry.

 

It might also be that, as a male, he would have been conditioned by society to see dolls as 'girls' toys' and not want to accept one or seem accepting of one because that's 'not what boys do'. I know that's not always the case, but I believe a lot of males are raised that way.

Yeah, that's pretty much the only thing I can think of that invokes UV in me - not just eyes, but disproportionate bodies or faces, or bodies posed in an unrealistic manner (legs bent the wrong way, feet backwards, etc).

 

This is probably the most likely reason. He didn't want to go into Michael's with me when I had a doll with me, though it was really late at night and there were only employees (and believe me, they've seen it before and didn't even take a second glance). He said he was embarrassed. I asked why he was embarrassed to be with someone carrying art, and he said he hadn't thought about it that way. *shrug* I guess some people are just not doll people, for whatever reason. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

 

Thank you for linking this. I found it so hauntingly beautiful.

I find this video beautiful, and yet slightly disturbing. Amazing engineering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBXr15K2uSc

 

No, it's not just you! I've always found it hard to make the proper "oh how cute" cooing noises around folks showing off new babies or endless baby pictures because I don't feel it at all, I'm happy to see someone else being happy but I really Do Not Want to even look at their little darlings until they're much older. It's very much an Uncanny Valley reaction for me, infants squick me because they look mostly human but with odd proportions and a sort of doughy, unfinished quality that I find unsettling rather than cute -- newborns are the worst, I find their blotchy discolored skin and squished faces downright repulsive. (I never particularly liked traditional baby dolls although they didn't particularly bother me, either, but the Reborn dolls give me the absolute screaming horrors because they have all the realistic baby features I find unsettling PLUS the added ick factor of looking still and dead! )

 

Oh, I agree, I agree! The Reborn dolls are like facsimiles of dead children - babies who have just died in a sleeping position. I love babies (maybe because I have had three and my hormones and synaptic connections have become wired to protect them) but the Reborn dolls make me stiff with horror.

The lowest point of Masahiro Mori's graph is inhabited by corpses, prosthetics and zombies - things to which we have a natural, animal aversion designed to help us preserve our safety. I guess the Reborns kickstart that aversion in some people and not in others, and, to a milder extent, so do our beautiful resin dolls.

 

I was recently talking with my husband about my dolls and the Uncanny Valley. I know there are things he has strong UV reactions to, and I wanted to make sure my dolls weren't on the list, especially since I keep them on display in the living room. He assured me that he seems to only have reactions like that to more human-sized objects. So mannequins, wax figures, and some animatronics, are what hits him. Baby dolls that move and giggle are in that animatronics set.

I have my strongest visceral Uncanny Valley reactions to the Reborns and zombies. My husband sasys this makes playing certain video games with me a lot of fun because I react so strongly.

I find my dolls strangely human and lifelike, but I find them on the climbing-out-of-the-Uncanny-Valley side of things. They are beautiful obejects And I love them. He views them as standing just outside the Uncanny Valley; human enough to be wonderful, but not so bad they bother him like other things. I've promised to never give my dolls glass eyes just to make sure he doesn't get disturbed by them.

 

It's funny how variable these things are, too -- because all those items in Mori's graph don't particularly bother me at all. Prosthetics, no problem, they tend to look very artificial and fake but it doesn't really squick me. Zombies, well, they're intrinsically fake so I'm usually just admiring the craftsmanship of the prosthetics and makeup, no squick there no matter how decayed or bloody they look. Real corpses, not a problem either -- I've been to many open-casket wakes and funerals, and while it's quite sad to see a familiar loved one changed into this still, cold, colorless thing with the spark of life gone, there's no sense of horror for me there. (Well, sometimes a bit of aesthetic horror if the mortician has dreadfully overdone the makeup, but that's not the sort of visceral squick the UV is about, it's more like the feeling I'd get if a living friend got a dreadfully ham-fisted and unflattering makeover!) But even corpses that haven't been prettified by the undertaker don't bother me much either -- I'm fascinated by forensics programmes, archaeological articles on mummies of various types, and so forth -- about the only time I get any hint of squick is if it's in the context of a particularly grisly fresh accident scene or such, and even there it's more of a feeling of...pity, I'd suppose, rather than deep gut-churning horror? But I've always had a fairly strong stomach where blood-and-guts things were concerned; my mother was a nurse, so growing up hearing all sorts of icky hospital stories and flipping through her first aid and medical reference books helped ensure I was desensitized to that sort of thing from a fairly early age.

But infants, especially the youngest ones, are absolutely Uncanny Valley territory for me; it's the "human but somehow not quite right" trigger. Apes and monkeys also tend to hit me in a similar way -- slightly cute and slightly unsettling all at once. It's definitely a reaction that gradually fades as a baby gets older and the facial/body proportions change and mature, more recognizable emotions begin to show, etc. -- older babies, toddlers and small children will have many more moments where I think they look cute rather actively unsettling or unappealing, and I think that's a lot to do with the liveliness of the expressions: traditional baby/child dolls with their more stylized expressions, or more realistic child dolls like Himmstedts, aren't terribly appealing to me, but they aren't particularly squicky, either. But the Reborns and similar ultra-realistic newborn/baby dolls are utter squick for me -- the dead/artificial corpse or prosthetic elements don't bother me in general, but when added to a base model that I find uncanny in real life they definitely amplify the visceral sense of horror and wrongness...

 

Wierdly, I don't think BJDs have ever fallen into uncanny valley territory. There are some sculpts I don't find aesthetically pleasing, but their creep factor isn't UV-related for me.

Now, some more western dolls definitely fall into the valley for me. Kewpies especially wig me out. My grandmother has a collection of (mostly) porcelain dolls, and most of them are lovely, but a couple are kind of creepy.

(my brother is with you on robot geek-ness. He has never been creeped out by a robot, no matter how eerily UV-material everyone else has found them.)

=^__^=
Anneko

 

Well, for me, I've never experienced the uncanny valley feeling. I fell in love with dolls at first sight but a lot of my friends scream " freaky !!! " when i show them photos of dolls...

Maybe watching horror movies affects the way you feel towards dolls...I don't watch horror movies and I'm not scared of dolls...but apparently dolls are quite creepy in horror movies *shrug*

 

I've had a few UV reactions, but never with my own dolls. My BJD has turned her legs in all kind of directions since I got her and all I can do is laugh at the silliness (because I like her too much to care). It's different with other peoples dolls though- eye placement is a huge no-no and also disproportional bodies. But I never really been a doll person before - I went through years of being freaked out by them (and believing that my teddy bears were my only protectors!). Things have obviously changed...!

 

Oh wow, there's a whole term and concept for this feeling. I get Uncanny Valley all the time I suppose in relation to corpses. My dolls friend laugh at me all the time that I have to pose my boys or at least sit or lay them down right or it freaks me out. Due to the medical nature of my family and my morbid curiosity as a child, bodies lying still in unnatural positions instantly makes me think of death.

I wouldn't call this feeling fear but something does come over me like anxiety and I move them into a more natural position. I truly can't stand their limbs laying in ways that make them look like they are broken or the body has been mangled. How odd.

 

I learnt a new term today. Uncanny Valley.

BJDs isn't under Uncanny Valley to me. 'Cause for starters, they aren't life-sized. Even 90cm dolls aren't considered life-sized as they are adults but at 90cm tall.

Well, today I went to a friend's house. My other friend and I brought our dolls. This other girl, she kept saying my friend's DS Hound, 'he looks creepy', luckily my friend took it in stride and said, 'it's a compliment to him'. She failed to mention mine. It's either she didn't want to care about mine or something. Well, we aren't here to discuss my feelings and hers but dolls.

I have friends who tell me, 'my god...you have a doll? That's creepy man...' But they haven't even met him yet! They just hear the term 'doll' and they label him creepy. When they do meet him, out of the 15 who called him creepy, 7 retracted their statements and decided to fiddle with him with my permission. And made him do cute poses and squealing at how adorable he it.

The other 8 kept going, Doll Master or Puppet Master at me till I smacked them over their heads with my books. I mean, BJDs aren't gonna go Chucky on us no matter how much they try to freak me out with them. Doll Master maybe I'll stop and think awhile...but in the end, I love my dolls enough to know they won't try to kill me. For what reason would they want to kill you if you love them?

Plus Chucky and Puppet Master...the dolls are UGLY...nothing like BJDs...which is like a totally whole species of their own as compared to those freaky things.

Walking, talking, blinking and singing dolls...now, they ARE creepy to me. Reborn dolls fall under Uncanny Valley for me. Mannequins and wax figures, well...mannequins don't look human enough and wax figures are just wax. So I don't find them creepy.

 

Hmm.. Well.. not really to me cause they don't look THAT humanoid to me. I actually consider them slightly more to manga/anime feel but my friends and family felt otherwise and when I asked them why, they said they look waaay too human for comfort. From the crook of the nose to the eyebrow to everywhere. Especially if the person's faceup skill is waay too superb, they'll find it even more freaky.

 

Personally, for me, I find that it's the dolls that are -too- realistic looking that become creepy. Like, say, in a museum display they have a meticulously carved mannequin head for the purpose of displaying some jewelry or something - That freaks me out. Not only is it life-size and completely still, it's also disembodied. @.@ Though I think that particular freakout has something to do with watching "The Return to Oz" when I was little.. and the part with the evil witch/queen and her changable heads all screaming at Dorothy running down the hallway. I always expect the damned things to open their eyes and try to bite me or something. >.<

I haven't encountered a doll in RL that has left me unsettled, but I used to get a lot of catelogs for whatever reason of particularly life-like porceline dolls - and I'd have to say that seeing a toddler-sized doll shaped into some particular pose staring at me would make me feel rather uneasy. Kind of like with taxadermy, I always get weirded out by it @.@;

BJDs, however, I haven't run across one that squicks me. Even the really realistic faced molds (none of which I could name off the top of my head >.<) haven't really phased me because while they're gorgeously carved and painted, seeing the joints I might as well be looking at a barbie doll than a little person.

 

To me, I've never experienced the uncanny valley feeling with BJDs. I think that some are realistic but not to the such an extent like some people make them out to be. There are tons of other non-BJDs out there that fall into the uncanny valley category and are heaps freakier. A lot of people remark that BJDs look really freaky and scary but I don't usually care what they say. To me, BJDs are awesome and they don't fall into the UV category

 

I think most dolls would hit uncanny valley for me is they were sized like us. Because as they are, My brain lumps them in the 'anime' or the 'toy' categories, and I'm not freaked out by them.

However, when you think about how weirdly they'd be proportioned if they had, say, hands the same size as ours... *shudder*

That aside, I know quite a few people who are weirded out by dolls, but it's usually fake eyes that do it for them.

Oh! Speaking of uncanny valley dolls, Susie from May, anyone?

 

Dude, 'Return To Oz'! That movie scared me when I was little, but I loved it so much *grin*.

*hem* Back on topic, though, I was once in a chiropractor's office, and in the waiting room, she had one of those 'hide and seek' dolls, these life-sized toddler things that sort of lean against a wall or door or water cooler or what-have-you with their faces buried in their folded arms like they're counting to a hundred and then they'll come and get you? FREAKY.

And occasionally there's a scary TV advert for dolls that walk/pee. But with BJDs, I love even the more realistic sculpts (I really love dolls with larger non-anime style noses), and yeah, they never freak me out.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

Ah yes. Princess Languedaire (or as they misnamed her in the movie Queen Mombai) I had the idea at one point of doing a princess languedaire BJD with her 30 heads.

Edit to bring it back to te thread subject.

As for the uncanny valley, I have never had any trouble with dolls i more have uncanny issues with certain types of disabilities and CG graphics.