Violence and depictions of abuse in the doll world?

I agree with Idoru who wrote a few pages back.
In the real world, rape and violence make no sense to me. Crimes against children are the worst. Yet I watch violet anime/cartoons/tv shows/video games without blinking. When playing my favorite video game (Samurai Warriors) I love to see how large a "kill" list I can get. It's easy for me to separate reality and fiction. As an animator, I'm almost always doing something violent to some thing or some one in my stories.

I can understand some people's sensitivity to the subjects, though. I'll never yell at someone for feeling disturbed over images -- real or fantasy because those feelings are genuine.

It's just that I, myself, don't see a problem with dipicting violence with dolls. ^^

 

I feel so old reading some of these comments... And I'm only 21! I agree, in western civilization the trend seems to becoming 'for the few, the sacrifice of many,' examples being the debate on the Pledge of Allegiance in schools a year or two ago, teaching creationism in schools, and a few other examples that also fall on religious lines so I won't mention them in case anyone gets offended. My generation seems to feel that they have every right to do whatever they want, whenever they want, forget the consequences and honestly that bothers me. With so many people focused on just themselves and maybe the small group that they care about the overall wellness of the community can rapidly go downhill. Community is more important then an individual. If you want to see that point illustrated in film, rent 'Hero.' It's a visually stunning movie and, although it seems a bit like Communist propaganda, I think it makes a very good point that I couldn't hope to express as well in writing.

Now to get back on the original topic... I personally believe that this glorification of violence we're currently talking about mostly stems from a person's desire for control in their own life. While I have never been sexually abused, nor known anyone that was, when I took a Forensic Anthropology class we briefly touched on criminal psychology. I was taught that most violent offenders choose to hurt others either from learned behavior (which I will hopefully say is not the case on DoA), mental illness (some people simply cannot learn control or social consciousness, which I also doubt anyone on this forum has), or from a desire to control their own life. Rape is a good analogy for this as the act is never about the sex, for the rapist it's almost always about control.

Following that train of thought, most people who depict violent acts either with dolls or otherwise are probably trying to take control of some aspect of their life. This means that hurting a doll through a traumatic past is actually a good way for people to do this, as a doll is unfeeling, but for people to share this online with others is a different matter entirely. Personally, I feel that such things should be limited to personal areas such as blogs or not shared at all. Quite honestly, I don't want to see it.

 

Personally I really don't like rape and violence being depicted in doll photostories. For one thing, I think that using dolls to depict such things can run the risk of trivializing the issue at hand. In addition, to the casual observer who is either a newbie or someone who is just checking out the ABJD fandom, if this observer comes across such stories, this observer could think that everyone in the ABJD fandom loves rape/violence stories and someone who simply loves ABJDs will be unfairly stereotyped as someone who loves rape and violence.

Writing rape and violence stories kind of hits close to home with me because I live about 250 miles from Virginia Tech, the site of the most deadly school shootings in U.S. history. The Washington, DC metropolitan area is reeling from this because not only did several victims hail from the local area (mostly Northern Virginia although I read a story in today's paper about a victim who came from Crownsville, MD) but the shooter hailed from the Northern Virgina town of Centerville.

Before the shootings this guy apparently had a history of writing very violent stories for his English classes that not only depicted extreme violence but also pedophilia. There were quite a few professors who reported him to the school administration but nothing was done about it.

I'm not saying that everyone on DOA who writes violent/rape photostories are prone to acts of violence. But I would question that person's sanity in light of what happened at Virginia Tech.

 

There is a vast difference between those who choose to physically hurt someone, and those who create a piece of art. To say that "most" people whom perform a mod upon a doll are attempting to take control of their life through it based on the motivations of violent criminals is a bit of a stretch, at the very least. While this is not to say that some may do these sort of modifications as an expression of inner turmoil, the majority on display in many forums is modification for the sake of an interesting back story, or to replicate the imagery in a film or show.

Modifying a doll to have a third eye in its forehead because it has second sight is no different than modifying a doll to appear to have burn marks because they barely escaped a fire as a child. There is no reason to assume that either of these people are attempting to inflict their will over something else, or exert control over another - these are simply modifications to a piece of plastic.

 

Modding a doll has nothing to do with it and I'm sorry if you got that impression with my post. I have no problem with modded dolls and don't care what those mods are whether they're added on elf ears, changed eye, nose, or face shape, or even that super cool ragdoll mod or the super neat zombie mods I've seen. In fact, there's a doll that I own that I want modded once I have the finances to hire someone good to do it.

I was trying to say that the idea of control with violence goes when you have a BJD character go through either torture or rape in a photostory. In that case I was trying to use the phrase 'hurting the doll' for the more emotional aspect of hurt, as emotions are what are most affected by sexual abuse. Actually modding a doll has little to nothing to do with it. Unless someone is purposely breaking or maiming a doll in order to take control of things (which no one on this forum does to my knowledge) mods are just an aesthetic change which has no bearing on my argument.

And I do believe that modding a doll with burn marks is very different then giving it a third eye. A third eye is not given to a doll for no reason, it's a show of spirituality and thus has a deeper meaning. It would be the same as if you gave the doll the stigmata or even gave the doll flogging marks (only if you had the flogging marks been made by the doll itself as it attempted to further it's religious beliefs (which one shouldn't do, by the way)). Burn marks, especially if 'given' by a torturer is completely different. Different even if you had the doll get the wounds in an accident or through a birth defect. Those are normal aspects of everyday life. Accidents happen, people are born differently. Torture or rape should never be considered commonplace so I don't understand why people attempt to make it so.

 

Alright. I'll poke my head in for an instant.

To me, this is all blowing up over things that are insane. Yes, there is violence, yes, there are thirteen years olds seeing this. But if you are around any 12 or 13 year old at this time, they know about all this already. It is ingrained in the media.
I'm not saying you HAVE to look at it, you don't. There are warnings. And I'm not saying we HAVE to allow it back. However, I really don't understand why we are raising such a huge issue over artistic ability.
We wonder why it's so popular? Look at the movies. Disturbia,a movie about murder is top in the charts right now. 300, blood, gore guts abound, look how popular that was. Our society, sad as it is, revels in it. And do you want to know who probably wanted to see those movies the most?
Preteens.
It doesn't mean they go out and do this afterwards. There haven't been reports of children starting a war.
I have two little brothers, one nine and one thirteen, and believe me, I want to shelter them from all there is out there, all the violence and rape and facts, and yet, the nine year old knows much more than I ever could have wished, and the thirteen year old, despite all our efforts of blocking and changing, has learned how to look up things he shouldn't see.
Has anyone heard a middle school conversation lately?
Or been around a 13-year-old fangirl?
Stopping it with dolls, will not stop the large conflict of our society in whole.
Again, I'm not going against the mods, but it's up to you to choose whether you come face to face with it or not. Or write it. Or come to it.
It's become part of the society that we grow up with, I'm not sure why it came about, or when it did, but it's there. Perhaps it is so we face reality, and realize these things happen, or maybe it's just to look into that taboo. To know you aren't supposed to.
To some, I'm sure it's a way of art, expressing yourself. What's important is this is on DOLLS, they may appear human, or be displayed as such, but it is not an actual human displayed on the screen.

Everyone has their reasons, or lack of, and to each their own.

 

I'm sorry for pointing you out, and no offense meant, but this is the kind of mentality that bothers me. Like with the shootings before. After that, if you were wearing a trenchcoat, you were seen with suspicion.
I write dark stories. Vampires, death, scifi. Nothing happy go lucky, but that does not mean I'm going to go out and kill people in an instant.
You may mean if they show more than just the writing, and I'll give that to you. He was also stalking two girls the year before, as well as off on his own and was actually said to be pretty mean. I think you mean to watch out for others like that, right?

And that kicks in with this sense, this argument. Are we going to raise a red flag because they wrote a violent story, and be worried about their mental state, or see more of their personality first?

On that note, I'm backing out of here before I say something and it sounds horrible.

 

Short answer coming up for me here: It's an art form. Some people could say it isn't art, but people also say a solid colour on a canvas isn't art, but a lot of people say it is. It's a serious, sometimes irksome form of art, but it can depict feelings, scenarios, society, ideas, etc...
If done right, it can be rather beautiful (in a twisted way). However, people who do it for fun ('hehe, my doll raped your doll') are... just doing it for fun. But that's their own time and I think they should be able to what they please. I'm not saying they should post it all over DOA, but if they want to, they should be able to without getting yelled at for it.
It really also depends how you depict it. In halves of photos, obscure angles, implied words, etc. that makes it more or less artistic.
It's one of those things people are shy to shed light on, but it happens and can be made into quality art and fiction if done right.

 

Actually, my mother read some of the ones they put up on the internet (thank you, Media At Large). She didn't find them nearly as disturbing as people are claiming, and she thinks Final Fantasy 12 is too violent a game.

You would question their sanity? Their very grip on the foundations of reality? Their taste, surely, might come into question, or their manners, but sanity? Hmm. I'm half afraid that this Vtech shooting will end up garnering the same reactions as Columbine did... Haul all the weirdos and goths into counseling, it's time to round us up some psychopaths! (I'm exaggerating, clearly, but I'm trying to make a point so please forgive me.)

 

My opinions on this topic is based on these facts...

I was born in the middle of the 60's...the height of the sexual revolution...but TV shows still had married couples in separate beds.

I was a child of the 70's....the disco and stoner era...but shows like M*A*S*H almost never showed blood and the movies like Jaws which then were rated R seem tame now.

I was a teen in the 80's...this was the age of sex, drugs and the ME generation...I know this for a fact as I was in high school and college in those years...the movies like Bachelor Party and Porky's reflected the have as much sex as you can attitude... BUT AIDS put the brakes on that particular party.

I became a parent and a homeowner in the 90's...the tech age...get it, get it fast, get it NOW....information was FREE and the world shrank overnight....suddenly news was almost instant...and the movies became about shocking the audience as we lost our ability to stay focused.

and now I find myself an "old lady" in a new century....my my how things have changed...Nip/Tuck is on TV with rear male nudity (i adore this show by the way)...I can't make myself go to a horror flick for fear of losing my lunch...I can find ANYTHING I want or need to know on the internet....but I can't get a teenager to focus long enough to count my change back to me at the cash register with out getting an "attitude".

A trend in violence and gore is a reflection of a new generation of buyers...
This generation views the world through different eyes...they see beauty in things that I can't even look at.
AND they did not grow up with the aversion to the same things I did....how can they abhor violence when they see it nearly everyday...video games, movies, TV, cartoons...etc.

The world has changed...but I am still carrying around the values of my youth...and bending my world to fit them.

AND the under 20 generation have been living in a post 911 world for 6 years now...that's a third of their lives...regardless of where in the world someone lives it has touched their world in some way..good or bad.

I think the increased violence depicted by dolls comes from the way they view the world...in a life filled with War Craft, easy access information, cable TV, metal detectors, guns in school and airport screenings.

Of course art for the sake of art is an entirely different thing. There are plenty of violent pieces of classic works that are worse than anything we have seen here...but those too were a reflection of the world view of the artist.

Yes...it effects me and I am real...I was recently appalled by a doll's appearance ...she was beautiful but horrible disfigured by her own hand....I was so taken back I could not even comment. The disturbing vision haunts me still.

HOWEVER...

I heard of a recent study (on a radio talk show [another sign of my age] so I don't have the name of the study)....It says that hearing the details of a traumatic experience does more than just numb your mind to the horror...it's also teaching...your mind thinks about what YOU could have done in the same situation, producing escape scenarios, and helping you develop coping mechanisms without having to actually experience the "bad" thing.
"The only way to learn from the mistakes of the past is to know the past."

As to the doll I saw... it did make me wonder what I would say if I knew someone behaving in such a way.

That said...glorifying a horrible mental illness such as "cutting" is horrific...my generation, this generation, or my great grand father's generation...wrong is wrong...and making something that many people struggle with daily seem glamorous and exciting is irresponsible. There are some things that should not be made to seem desirable...Self destruction, violence against women, racism, bigotry, terrorism, murder.

Could the media we view do a better job? of course...but ultimately we are responsible for what we digest and what we offer.

I make the choice to view or not to view...to keep to myself or share.

The responsibility is on the individual NOT the media.

 

Idoru, I read both the scripts that was put up as well and I agree with your mother. I didn't find either very disturbing. I think there were other more disturbing facets of his behaviour than his writing that should have sounded the warning bells...

On to what kimpossible said, I don't believe that fiction with negative aspects are always written by disturbed minds. We find disturbing works produced by disturbed minds sometimes, because even people who have mental problems (sociopaths, psychopaths, serial killers, etc) want to express themselves in writing/drawing/something arty. But it doesn't mean that art of any kind can only be produced by a certain type of mind.

Avriel, this is a debate thread about violence and abuse. There will always be differing, strong point of views but I really don't think anyone is blowing up over anything. It seems pretty civil so far.

What I do find strange is this belief so many have that since children and preteens are exposed to so much negative things from TV and such, it shouldn't matter if we expose them to a little bit more. Do we just wash our hands of everything because this is the way life is? Before anyone takes me out of context, this is not to say that artform of any kind should be banned. But surely there's nothing wrong with thinking and talking about the possible effects, reasons and personal reactions to such things. Just because violence is common enough on TV does not mean that we should accept it unthinkingly.

And this last bit:

So...if there are actual humans displayed on the screen, it's wrong?

As atsuhiko has been saying, there is no right or wrong in art. But mainly what I can't agree to is the idea that somehow, because dolls are the main subjects, there won't be any negative impact. Dolls are just another form of expression. Writing and drawing are other forms of expressions. Photography of real humans is yet another form of expression. What makes expression through dolls any less than the others?

 

Perhaps this is the real issue... a modern confusion between the concepts of strength and desensitization. Being immune to the horror of it is not equivelant to overcoming the fear of the event.

I find it absurd that anyone who has never experienced a personal trauma can come forth with a claim that they are exploring these topics through dolls to strengthen themselves, or to learn about said topics of violence. You're right, if they really want to learn, they need to work with real victims, not make up glorified stories about it to act out with resin.

And honestly, what I truly find crazy about it all...is that you can speculate all you want on how you'll react during these horrific situations (ANY horrific situation) but you never really know until you're in the middle of it, until it's happening to you.

 

Quoting the original post in order to reiterate my point:

Where does this come from? No, where is this? Where are you all seeing this 'increasingly popular trend'?

I'm just not seeing it.

Scarred dolls, yes. Occational violence in photostories, yes...but less than in other areas of life we are all exposed to daily. Depicting sexual abuse using dolls? No. Not here, at least. Perhaps you are seeing this elsewhere? As someone who only belongs to DoA and no other doll-oriented forum, I'm just confused by blanket statements like this as I don't see an 'increasingly popular trend'.

Is there one?

As more people get into anything, the range of quality and subject matter naturally diversifies. Not everyone likes every doll, or every book, or every type of cake. I'm not saying that violence is just 'another type of cake', I'm simply saying that...well...every new hobby/trend/group collects trolls, and posers, and 'lookatme' types, and some of them just like to make cyanide cake and wave it around for shock value--they don't actually expect anyone to eat it. Eventually, it dies down, and they toddle off to other places with similarly minded people or jump on the next trend to come along and forget all about what they were doing before.

I understand the original question here is 'why do people depict violence with dolls' but I don't think there's a patent answer for that--each person has their own reason, some just want to post something absurdly over the top silly like that zombie comedy they watched last night, some want to tell a complex story with dark themes, some just want attention, some really do just need help...and so on. There's no one definitive answer to why there is violence in our culture, in any culture, in human nature itself, and that is the real root question here.

The only way I see that this may be an 'increasing trend' in dolls specifically is the fact that more people are likely getting into BJDs now not as pretty collectibles to dress up and set on a shelf but as little resin self-expressions, purchased specifically to create into a character with a fully-formed identity, including backstory and day-to-day interactions with others. With that self expression come the self, a self raised and fed on modern culture, so it's inescapable that some of that would bleed over. I edit to add: Not just "modern" culture, but human culture in general. Anyone who studies history can show you innumerable examples of places and times where day-to-day life was much more violent, and graphic in its own way, than now.

 

Well, in my personal history of being on Den of Angels, there is an increasingly popular trend towards violence... seeing as how when I first joined, I recall there being virtually zero depictions beyond your rather few and far between samurai story.

Of course, DoA has grown a lot since I joined.

 

Does viewing depictions of violence/sexual abuse against a non-human object have an effect on real people?

Mm... I hope I'm understanding the question right, but here's my thoughts on it...

Well, simply.. of course it has an effect on people. I think usually the poster/artist/writer's intent was to have an effect on people - otherwise, what's the point?

I've read books where some pretty horrible things, including rape, disfigurement, and murder, happen to the characters, and there were times these stories have actually made me cry, because I felt so bad for the characters. It had quite an effect on me.

But when it was done, I was able to close the book and say "Wow. Now that was a good story."

Because, in the end, I can tell the difference between real and make-believe.

That's just my thought.. Hope I'm not way off base here.. .^^;

 

Well...I can only speak of what I've seen, but recently, I've seen one or two photostories of abuse (one was specifically self-abuse, doll with knife, self-cutting) and there have been also one or three sexual photostories where one participant seems to be reluctant. These were deleted rather quickly by the mods. Anyway, since I'm not a mod, I can't tell you exactly how many of these threads have made a brief appearance only to be deleted.

This seems to be a fairly new thing. The older members will have to confirm this, but I don't recall these topics being popular in the BJD hobby until recently.

Other than those photostories that have been deleted, well, I think you'll find the backstories of the dolls are getting more violent and filled with abuse as well. Not saying it's bad or wrong, but since you're asking where the topic comes from, that's my answer.

 

Thanks for answering. ^_^
I figured there were a certain number that were being deleted quickly by the mods but I've only personally seen that happen once before.
Part of my point, though, is that if there are just a handful of posts being deleted for this sort of thing out of the hundreds of posts that go up each month, how does that constitute an increasingly popular trend? It seems more like a divergent minority to me.

I agree that the backstories are becoming more filled with violence and abuse, but I'd put that down to what I said above, mainly that more people are currently entering this fandom not from the 'doll/figure collector' standpoint, but from the 'creative self expression' standpoint. If someone just wants to show off their pretty doll, likely said doll's 'character' may be something simple and innocent, say a schoolgirl with a crush on her neighbor boy. While this is fine, many who are setting out to create realistic characters with their dolls may want something a bit deeper and more multidimensional for their backstories. While this can be done without adding violence in, a history of abuse/violence can add a certain depth of reasoning behind a doll's appearance that would not otherwise be explainable...why does she dress like that, why does he have that scar, and so on. True, some people seem to throw violence/abuse in there just because they think it makes the character/doll edgy. But, again, that just seems to be the way it works across life, in any time in history. Troubled past=cool to some people, always has, always will. I can't explain it any more than I can explain why some people really like the colour forest green while I don't. I personally have very specific reasons for the violence in my own doll characters' backstories, since they are characters in a complex story that I'm working on telling. It's not cool, from their standpoint or from mine, but it has majorly contributed to who, what, and where they are right now and is as essential to their identity as doll and character as are the appropriate colour eyes or wig.

I'm not sure I'm making any useful, innovative points anymore. Time for bed. -__-

 

I've only been a memeber for about a year. You guys say there has been a major rise in popuarlity. And with more members maybe its getting harder for people and their dolls to get noticed.
so maybe their falling back on the "shock factor". Some people try to bring attention to themselves by focusing on nagitive things like extreme gore, rape,and ect.

I dont see now those extremes would be considered artistic expresssion??? But sadly people will remember the nagtive things rather then the postive ones.

 

This discussion reminded me of a brilliant lecture I have heard some years ago by Fusanosuke Natsume (a Japanese manga expert who has written quite some secondary literature on manga). He made an interesting point about violence in manga which, I believe, also figures into the depiction of violence in fan fiction and doll photostories to some extent and has not yet been mentioned.

According to him, the exploration of these themes fills a psychological need in the reader/writer different from simply letting off steam.

Someone has already pointed out a few pages ago that it seems to be mostly the younger members (mostly, but not exclusively, in the teen-age range) who tend to include themes of violence in their photos and stories.

Now, according to Mr. Natsume, this is the age in which a young person is going through some radical changes in their lives - many start questioning or even rebelling against the world they grew up with: their religion, their parents, their teachers, their hometown, their country and so on. It is a process in which the "world" that they perceived when they were still a child is getting destroyed to a great degree, and the "world" as they perceive it as (young) adults is starting to take shape, is sort of rising from the ruins.
It is tied to the process of working out who they are.

Mr Natsume pointed out that manga in which there is a lot of violence, breaking of taboos, destruction of the world and similar themes can help their young readers to cope with this process of growing up, reflecting in some way the destruction and implicit rebuilding of the readers´ world.
(He used Devilman as an example, but I think this theory explains some of the enormous popularity of manga such as X-1999, Angel Sanctuary or Neon Genesis Evangelion with readers in the above-mentioned age range.)

I believe this theory can be extended to some degree to writing fan fiction or creating doll stories which explore themes of violence or abuse. I´m not saying this applies to everyone who creates/enjoys such stories, and I don´t see it as the all-encompassing, only possible explanation for the fascination of themes of violence. (There have been many other factors mentioned which, I believe, apply as well - such as the need for attention, influence of stories one likes or that got many comments, the attempt to give a deeper background to a character or make the story more dramatic and more).

It´s just another piece to add to the puzzle.