Violence and depictions of abuse in the doll world?

LisaMarie, please read the last few pages of this debate, which show many many examples of the ways that violence is NOT always "gratuitous and attention-seeking".

While many people agree with you, and prefer to use their dolls as a refuge from our violent world-- there are legions of people who feel the opposite way, and use their dolls as an expression of how they relate to our violent world. You don't have to accept it as Art, but you don't get to tell somebody that their creation is not Art.

 

See, this bugs me. Not that you don't want to view violent images--that's fine, but that you see such a big distinction between written and visual art. It seems like visual art always gets picked on the worst for being the big offender when it comes to sex, violence, or disturbing images. However, the exact same things exist in literature, only there it's ok. Written descriptions can be just as powerfull as an image, because they let us form an image in our own minds. My imagination is better at depicting things than a lot of movies are, that's for sure.

Visual art isn't always pretty and safe--and it shoudn't be, or it would be incredibly out of touch with our world. Like the Socialist Realism movement in the Soviet Union--all those depictions of happy workers, when many workers were not anything of the kind. There's room for non-violent images too as a break from the horrors of our modern world, but thinking that everything must be non-violent cuts out a way many of us have to deal with the actual world we live in.

Sorry if this has all been stated before. I did read through the thread, but it was awhile back.

 

There's a lot of talk going on about presenting rape in a "serious" manner, and only having rape/abuse in the stories people create for dolls in order to create sympathy for the character, but there are also plenty of people in this fandom who do get a "pervy buzz" as you put it from these types of violent imagery. I think it's important to remember in the context of art and creativity that those people have every right to express themselves too. I mean, perhaps not right here on DoA or at least not very blatantly since we have 13 year old members, but people have a right to enjoy their fantasy world whichever way they want. I not going to go into it in detail because I simply don't know enough about the psychology behind it, but the fact of the matter is that rape fantasies are among the most common fantasies of human kind, and I think even more so for females than males and god knows most of us are female here, so it's not surprising that such things should emerge in people's doll stories (both dealt with seriously and as a way of exploring fears AND also in a stylised, titilating manner).

Interesting topic. I'm glad it's not locked.

Yes, I'm one of those yaoi fangirls

 

(Don't worry I'm a yaoi addict as well ) I want to add to this before someone predictably says "Yeah well they should keep their pervy fantasies to themselves because I certainly don't want to see it!"

You're right about the rape fantasy being one of the most common, I have seen a poll on it once in a womens magazine (although I can't remember which one, it was quite some time ago) asking about fantasies and rape was one of the top ranking ones (I'm sure I could find some real psychology based studies for this but I'm on holidays from uni atm and I really couldn't be bothered ). But anyway what has to be remembered is the whole freedom of speech deal on the internet, you have the right to like it, you have the right to not like it but no one has the right to say that you are wrong/gross/whatever for feeling the way you do about the subject.

 

When you see sex and violence and what have you ,in ANY form, be it at the theater or on the news or people acting out scenes with their dolls it helps to desensitize the person viewing it. Its like a hot brand that is put in to you flesh over and over .The flesh becomes scarred. Over time these images are not going to bother you anymore.
I understand that these things happen in real life and its a tragedy and my heart goes out to the people who have suffered abuse but I certainly do not want to come across these things. I know this is the world we live in, but why is it forced on other people?
If you've seen the american version of "The Ring" the man asks the reporter,'What is it about your reporters that makes you want to take someones tragedy and force the whole world to experience it?"

Dolls have been used for a long time in therapy to help ones deal with abuse or violence that has been done to them so I could see how someone would jusitfy it as therapy for themselves but why the need to publicize it? Take your photos put them in your own private gallery and continue with your therapy and hopefully heal.

 

it's hard to imagine violence with bjd's, but then again i did used to make my barbies kill each other

 

As a personal opinion, I think many of these type stories happen because anything less is 'boring'.
The mentality seems to be, if a character grew up in a happy home with no problems, gets a good job, has a nice family, happily ever after 'Where's the fun in that?'
It's unfortunate that less then extremes (childhood rape or violence) are seen as 'boring'. I've run into that a lot in fandom, nobody's original character EVER has a nice childhood.

Maybe it's the fact that most of us DID. It may be our own experiences were 'boring' so it's better to make up something more interesting. It seems all books and mangas and such the main character does SOMETHING cool. What would be the point otherwise?

I don't think that rape and violence are the only ways to make a story interesting though. There is a lot out there besides.


Wow, that was a lot more then I ment to write...

 

i just think traumatic experiences makes good story plots and tat's why ppl use them. it does desensitize people but being desensitized is no excuse for people to carry that into the real world. normal human beings should be able to tell right from wrong even with desensitization, it's like the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people", violence and rape desensitizing people don't CAUSE them to be violent to others, it's their will that's not strong that allows their inhibitions to go and for them to commit violence. If people's inhibitions were strong enough, any desensitization shouldn't push someone into violence. I watch a lot of bloody and gory movies and am desensitized and don't flinch everytime i see someone gets hurt anymore, but I still understand that it's fundamentally wrong to hurt people. - - so...I don't think it's fair to blame society's problems on anything that comes out of any sort of media.

 

I think this is particularly fascinating.
I believe that Japan has an incredibly low crime rate, and yet they produce some of the most horrific films as well as comics slathered with violence and blood.
It may reflect disturbing homicidal tendencies, but really, when expressed in a different outlet, I believe it makes one less likely to carry out those actions.
I've seen Bellmer mentioned quite a bit. I really enjoy his art. They do have a sexual feel, without being outright disgusting and tasteless.
Many of these things, like gore and violence, can be shown in an incredibly artistic sense, and I find that perfectly fine. The fact is that trauma is interesting, however disturbing.
The only time when I find it in any way wrong is when such acts are glorified. The mere mention of it is fine; using it to build your character is laudable, but supporting it? No.

 

Pictures and dolls better than living things? It's normal that people will have these kind of thoughts but it's how they are acted upon.

I have a personal sketch book of things I would never show anyone, all of the "people" in it are completely made up not real beings. It allows me to express ideas and get them out of my system. I would never do them to a living being.

When I was younger I had some Barbies I took out my agression on. They were things not people. As for sex I took pictures of my minis on their honeymoon. I only have one resin girl her charicter is the mini's wife and they are commited. No one in the dollhouse is married and the boys get in to some rough houseing. Everything I do with my dolls is a reflection of me, I'm not in to sex and violence very much so I don't do pictures that are.

I don't like pictures of child like dolls in sexual or violent poses, they should be in an 18 and over section so the viewer can make the choice. Personally I don't want to see child dolls engage in those activities so I don't look.

 

I think any form os self expression is art, and if it has a age warning on it, what is the problem? I don't understand people who think the entire world should be censored since they don't want to see things that make them uncomfortable. No one makes you read these photo stories or look at the pics. But since some people are offended they should just be banned from the internet everywhere?
No one has to look at some yaoi doll bondage if they don't want to, but if thats what makes you happy create on story tellers

 

Under 18 warnings are more for parents than children. They shouldn't be banned. I like to know if a posting has such things because some times I want to see it and sometimes I don't. If I know what might be in it I can make a choice.

 

My story has violence in it. The world I portray is somewhat of a facist-world, so murder does exist, as do razzia's etc.
While I do understand people's opinions that you do not have to depict violence just because it exist in the real world, I do think that it is a little bit naive.
I write my stories because I want to understand the people in it. To do that, you have to write about all facets of life, from the very heroic acts to their lowest behaviours. If you exclude violence in this picture, you exclude a large part of what makes us human. Because like it or not, violence is part of our nature. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much shit going on in this world.
But I do not write it down because the violence itself is interresting or is making me feel 'pervy'. It's about the choices we make. The choices of the victim, how he or she deals with it, but also the choice of the abuser or murderer. Making choices is what interests me.

Then again, I wouldn't easily write about something as rape. But that has to do with the fact that you have to be a very good writer to pull this off without making it extremely tacky.

 

Well, I'm pretty sure I've debated in this thread before, but I'll throw in a different point from my previous one.

I think that sometimes, people go to too many extremes in the name of art, whether or not there's anything particularly artistic or well-done about that particular 'art'. As someone who writes and reads and watches my fair share of violent stories (and have a fondness of dark, gory manga), I have to admit that some stories would have been better depicted if violence hadn't been overused as a plot device and shock factor.

When violence is glorified in a senseless storyline, it has less to do with 'art' and more to do with individual gratification of how much violence and abuse can be created. I'm not saying that it's the same for everyone who uses violence in plots, but I am saying that it's something that does happen. When I read about how anything in 'art' should be acceptable, I have to admit that there are times I'm very cynical of what's being done in the name of art.

 

I myself relate alot to what LKJ just said. Today anything and everything can be considered "art" an example of this is me going to see a piece of performance art. A young man played music as he placed sandwich's into his rear end, is this art? For me no for others maybe. I feel that today many only create work to shock and forget about actually producing work that has meaning or plot other then to shock. I believe we've become so desensitized to gore and violence that its become a popular genre we enjoy to read and watch, maybe so much so that we accept it as the norm. We've forgotten the actual act were seeing as "real" were rape can be fantasied and enjoyed? Where as the actual real experience is alot different.
I understand that many people wish to explore real life experiences by writing about them and as humans exploring every human emotion is key to understanding ourselves, but i have to wonder where will it end and how healthy it is to examine only the darkest of human experiences.

One thing i can not understand is why it seems necessary to give our dolls background stories that are violent or gory to make them seem more real? As human beings we have a huge range of emotions and experiences that make us real and by focusing on only that one range of human emotion seems very limited and unrealistic.

 

It's not forced on anyone. That's why warnings exist.

People deal with their issues, fantasies and interests in different ways. Whether someone is an abuse survivor or has rape fantasies (or both), they may play those out with those characters. That doesn't mean you have to look at them - that's why there are headings on their photostories.

If you do bypass a warning and look at a photostort that bothers you more than you expected, the proper response is to take a break, cool down and move on to some lighter fare rather than ranting about it. It's interesting to someone.

 

In some odd way, I feel as if it follows the Hollywood mottos of "sex sells" and "controversy is key"

Some people write stories for their dolls and keep it to themselves, but some people want to get that reaction, and it's a proven fact that people are more drawn towards sex, violence, gore, and the like than pure romance and love (unfortunately.) Therefore, to get someone interested in their dolls, their stories, they throw these things in for shock value.

Look at the movies that draw HUGE numbers and you'll see the backing for my theory. And of course, I'm not saying it's 100% accurate, but it's (violence & sex) shooting a good 76-79% of movie revenue nowadays.

Of course, it also comes from the people who had traumatic events unfold for them in their past, so this IS their form of therapy. Some people can't get out in socialized discussions with others what they want to express, so they grab the closest manifestation of a human life and live vicariously through that manifestation.

Whatever works. Whatever makes one content should never be judged or scoffed.

 

As BJD have become more popular, there has been an increasingly popular trend of depicting violence and sexual abuse using dolls. Where does this come from?
It depends, some people might have a "character" who got into a accident or got into a fight because of the "character's personality" the BJD might have a scar on his cheek. I really think something like that is more like character traits. Not...depicting violence in an unhealthy way. It's more like evaluating and sculpting a character as you would in a book/novel.
--As for sexuality...as in extreme sexuality with violence ( like hurting someone while doing a sexual act)...to me that sounds like a fetish of some sort. ( OR it could be a psychological problem)( OR it could be someone trying to tell a story, like a novel etc.)

Does viewing depictions of violence/sexual abuse against a non-human object have an effect on real people?
It depends, if the person has psychological problems and is easily influenced and prone to commit violence just because they see it. It does have an effect on real people.
But if the person is stable and knows difference between dolls and stories. They can watch violence without any problem of committing a crime of some sort.

Is this quantifiable or supported by any sort of existing research, or is this view based purely on opinion?
I guess the only research is psychology and opinion.

 

I agree on both these matters.

I mean, take a alook at it from my perspective. Some of my most favorite fanfics and pieces of art over at fanfiction.net and deviantART are displays of extreme violence, in one form of another. But that doesn't make me go and attack my roomate with a paperweight so that I can perform some insane act of violence on their corpse ((like cannibalism or necrophilia or something)). Sure, just the fact that I was able to type out that whole scenario without cringing as it manifested itself in my mind's eye, means that I'm disensitised to violence, but it doesn't mean that I am a violent person.

I've always been very straight to the point with what I say, which most of the time can be something very violent or crude because I'm a b**** like that, but I've never been able to be physically hurtful towards someone. Even after disensitising myself with the art, photographic stories, and fanfictions.

Then there's the whole thing about blaming society's problems on media forms ((while this can be seen in forms like BJD, I've yet to see a study myself so I'm not going to really cite on that...So I'm going to go on about art and games)). I've heard people say that violent video games make children grow into violent adults, but then Ive also seen studies that show that video games, due to their violence, are so addicting to children that it has actually making my generation ((and ones that follow)) one of the most passive and lazy generations that people have yet to see.

And then there's the whole belief that anyone who draws violent images or images that contains weapons are more likely to be violent people. And yet from what I've seen, all of my friends that do so are pretty much harmless. Sure, their minds are a little bit more towards the graphically violent side, but only one or two of them have even gotten into fist fights.

 

I'm going to make a short and perhaps over simplified post as to my opinions on this matter.

I love guro manga and horror movies, and I write a lot of content like this in my fiction. These are very violent and often abusive, graphic and intense. There's some things in these that still can disgust me, but for the most part I'm desensitized. However, whenever I hear about abuse or violence on the news, I'm absolutely disgusted, and I myself could never commit a violent act, and I'd never want to. Fantasy violence is a 100% different thing than real violence. Fantasy violence is, in my view, 100% acceptable as it hurts nobody- and if it does hurt, on an emotional level, than you shouldn't be involved in it. Individual people know what they can handle when it comes to sex, violence, and the like, and they shouldn't hurt themselves with it. It's very simple to just not look or read. Perhaps not in all places, but extreme violence isn't allowed here, and things like scars and gore must be flagged here. If you don't like gore, don't click the gore-flagged threads. Simple.