Violence and depictions of abuse in the doll world?

Violence is in everything. It's in the actual melody of some of the better songs that have been written. Even if the lyrics are about gumdrops and fairies doin' it all day in hollow trees - Squirrels that wear hats and play the banjo, and things of that nature...(Yes, that is all I could come with for examples of pleasantries.)
Violence has always been present and predominant in art, like sex. That's the reason it's "popular" in this hobby.. And as far as sexual-abuse goes, I think we like to blur the line between the two. It creates a split in the mind. Between something we related to, and something we have contempt for.
That's part of the appeal of violent characters (dolls). They force you into giving empathy to, and sympathizing with a "monster". The sort of person you've been told to fear your entire life. Seeing humanity in an act that is viewed as monstrous is a really frightening experience. And an important one. I've met people *online* who worship warlords, and threaten to kill you using your IP address as means to find you... But, I hope it's safe to assume that's not the majority who take interest in violent characters...
Hans Bellmer was a sexually-obsessed man, opposing the nazi party.... So it only makes sense violence and sexual-violence would pop into this hobby. It's in the spirit of these dolls, just as much as innocence and goodness is.

I actually haven't seen a lot of violent dolls. I've seen a lot of dolls who had violence inflicted on them. Which, I wouldn't actually categorize as violence, or harmful mentally to anyone.. If the character (doll) has been hurt, or harmed, then it's being portrayed that violence is wrong. Is it not?
Which is true, and overall a message that is in constant transmit anyways. It might be a graphic way to get it across, but intentions are good, right?
Reality is graphic after all... No one gets out of the shower visible only from the neck up. When a lady gives birth the angels aren't quite so convenient... But we can't ignore in art that people bathe (Most of them >_>), and are born.. So, why exclude violence? It's just as much a part of the world.
I really don't see why making a victim of violence your hero would scar anyone's mind. I think we make the mistake of confusing thinking about something deeply, with mental damage?

Something else; this hobby is governed by females, the American branch of it anyways.
Little boys are handed guns, and G.I Joe, and orange monsters that have cavities of green slime. Different cubes of plastic that seem to just be made to carry simulated snot, plastic grenades... I could go on. Violence is encouraged in boys. (and that's not any better than never being allowed the freedom to express these feelings at all.)
Violence is in human nature, and that means it needs a safe way to be expressed.. But those feelings are stifled in little girls. They never really get a chance to express unnecessary aggression in those early years.
Even though, I am sure, they want and try to, they're chastised for it. They're given things that smell and look pretty, scented pink ponies, and plastic high-heels, and ovens that make cupcakes instead of jelly-filled spiders... People are people, not so much men and women. But people.
As a result of forcing, forcing, forcing... When someone (male or female) finds a craft to express feelings they had a mental wall against, it's going to explode with those feelings, over-flow with them.

It's only to be expected that a hobby like this. Of which, women are going to feel more comfortable in, would be littered with violence and sex.
It's rightful that there should be pleasant imagery with these dolls... But, images that are violent, and awful are just as condonable.

Art (dolls) can be a mirror of reality, and reality is both these extremes.

 

This! I would like to point out that a great many of us, including myself, were sheltered as children. Talk about sex? No way that's forbidden. Violence? Nope. And so as soon as we start peeking out from under our rock, we are suddenly bombarded with a multitude of images from the adult world, and a great many of which are not so pleasant. It's shocking at first but in a way, since it was forbidden to experience or even talk about, we've become desensitized in short time. It becomes a curiosity thing and in many cases with girls, a desire to watch from a safe distance starts to pop up. In fact, it turns into a sexual gratification of sorts to watch this sort of thing happen to inanimate objects such as our dolls. Why? Because it's safe and no one is being hurt by it yet the curiosity of the taboo is satisfied.

With boys, it seems to be more a form of control. It is pretty much drilled into their heads that without power and control you are not a man. You shouldn't cry and you should be the leader.

It's almost if the bombardment of images from an early age is a traumatic experience for the mind to the point it starts to crave it.

 

its human to hate, but by putting gorey, disgusting stories or mods, its not gonna help you. what if in the fueture you wanna sell your dolls, does someone really wanna buy a doll who has a blob for a body, half of its face missing, and looks like its gunna eat you? NO! And if you post storys about gross or sexual stuff happen to you, I DOUBT ANYONE WANTS TO HEAR IT! MAYBE THE POLICE, theres someththing called domestic violenceand child abuse! plus youll just get banned. And banned=bad.
im sorry if i've offended anyone, but no one wants to know about this stuff.

 

I think people can do whatever they want with their own dolls and that includes stories and whatnot. I don't see these stories of rape, abuse, incest, etc...to have any deeper meaning at all. I simply see it as people (mostly yaoi fangirls) trying to be edgey, dark, cool, deep, etc...They either want angst, or want attention from angst-mongers and things like the character being an orphan, or being the victim of predjudice/racism just don't cut it anymore as people are desensitised to it. Now it has to involve rape, pedophilia, incest, child prostitution, severe physical abuse, etc...to be seen as deep and angsty.(plus the yaoi anime they love is chock full of that stuff and they want to imitate it) The people writing these stories often don't even think in terms of real people or situations and therefore can't imagine the real world consequences of those topics. They don't imagine "what if it was my father raping me as a child?" like most non-sensitised readers would.

Do I think someone who comes up with violent, rape filled stories is a rape or abuse victim who is doing it for some kind of theraputic reasons, or just lashing out because of their own feelings? No. Do I think those people are going to go out and have sex with their brother, and then rape a bunch of children while beating them wit barbed wire? Absolutely not. Some people seriously need to take a step back though and try to look at their story from another perspective. A lot of people are going to be creeped out by it. Cheap shock value stuff isn't the way to make an interesting story. Character and plot development is. In fact when you throw too much of that horrible stuff in, it has the opposite effect. The story just becomes too much to believe, the character lacks depth, and no one can empathize with them or see them as a real person. It's just another version of Mary-Sue.

 

Uhhh... a lot of it is just fiction, not necessarily autobiographical, and there's plenty of dolls out there with well done scar mods that people really like. Doll stories are like any other stories--they reflect the human experience, which isn't always pretty or pleasant. Human nature has a dark side that often gets expressed in fictional endevors where it's safe to do so. I don't think you should speak for other people on the board, and if you don't personally like something just don't read it. This is no different than what appears in written fiction as well as screen plays. I really get tired of the double standard where nobody bats an eye at movies or even considers what's in books, but has a fit when people try and tell a story with dolls that's more than PG in nature. Not everyone here is a kid, so expect that people will have stories and characters that are more adult in nature.

Also want to point out that discussions like this aren't about what's allowed on DoA--it's what people do other places as well. If it were only about what's permitted on DoA, there would be little to debate. However, not all places are like DoA so this sort of thing comes up, and it's not necessarily against any rules.

 

That would depend on the quality of the mod I think. There are plenty of people out there who would like to buy gore dolls [I'm one of them] possibly even for more money then the same doll 'unharmed'. If nobody wanted such dolls they wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be people out there offering such mod services under commission.

....

Does everything involving dolls have to be rainbows and kittens? : /

Since quite a few dolls out there are representing characters in a story I don't see why there wouldn't be any form of violence involved. I have some bitter thoughts toward mankind so I enjoy stories/photostories [when done well at any rate] which depict the cruelty life can have. It can also help to show how caring strangers can be during a dark time so it isn't always completely negative.

I base my characters on personalities I can't stand in people because it's just more interesting to me that way. Therefore, violence runs through the story of my dolls. Does it mean I'm projecting my past through dolls? I can tell you that isn't the case. Like most people, I am influenced by a variety of subjects around me which inspires my stories, art, etc. I don't watch gore movies but I enjoy war movies and books which obviously involve violence.

I do think some people just toss in a tragedy, such as rape, into a background just to have it, but certainly not the majority.

 

Ouch, harsh! Considering how many people mod their dolls, and how many stories involve the very things you mentioned, I think your justification is a bit biased (that and most of these dolls look like they'll kill you in your sleep, lol). But you do have the right to an opinion and all I can say to that is the old "Don't Like it, Don't look".

Most of the people here are responsible enough to put warnings on their threads involving gore, violence, etc and DoA doesn't even allow the more extreme cases (there is at least one other well-known forum for that), so I think you just need to calm down a bit It is pretend, after all....

As for me, I like adding things like violence to my stories because it makes them more interesting, and I get to do things I would never dream of doing or condoning in the real world. It allows me to creatively explore things safely, without actually hurting someone in real life. Plus, I have a really twisted sense of humor; anyone else laugh their heads off at JTHM?

 

Just my two cents but....

"Dark does not equal deep" Larry Dixon artist, illustrator and writer.

 

Damn straight

 

One of my dolls has a very dark past (plot/story/whatever) because of the time-frame it is based in (World War II European Front). And, let's face it, nothing is more violent, emotionally and physically abusive than war. However, I am not as interested in the battles and the statistics of those battles, but more interested in the way the men who lived through such experiences dealt with it after they came home and back into civilian life. The emotional roller coaster, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, stages of grief. Not being able to show emotion, but having so much of it built up the inside.

I know I could never join the military, ever. In either war or peace time. But I want to explore and learn the effects war does on people. And, for me, it's safe to do because it's historical, books upon books and documentaries are available to me.

Am I glorifying it? No. I believe I am doing the complete opposite.

Going slightly off-topic in the sense of fanfiction, there was this Band of Brothers fanfiction I absolutely love. It has since been taken down from the web because as the author continued his research, much of his story no longer was considered "canon." However, he explored the life of one of the characters right as he came home from Europe to the beginnings of his new life. His transition from army into civillian life. The challenges, the obsticals, highs, lows and everything in between. This character is also known in real life to have suffered from severe PTSD and fell off the face of the earth for three years. The author was giving an insight to what may have happened in those three years.

Anyway, about being affected by depictions of abuse and violence....

I have been very affected from many memoirs. With the Old Breed, Helmet for My Pillow, Easy Company Soldier. All three never really dipicted war in the sense that or history books do, but the emotional impact that it has. They were blunt, to the point, and didn't sugar coat anything. A huge contrast compared to the propoganda of the time. And that hits me because I could never talk to any one in my family about their experiences when they were overseas and the books, and, in sense, Lilke, are my gateway to understanding their plight.

Wow. That was extremely long-winded. I apologize.

 

I surely did, but I know enough people who can't crack a smile while reading JTHM. Not everybody likes or dislikes the same things, which sort of goes with what Nefla said: People (in Nefla's example yaoi fan girls) like what they see and try to imitate and copy what they like. They like it, other people like it, so if they copy/imitate what they like other people should like their stories too. It's just that you shouldn't forget that not everybody may like it.
Projectile vomiting cracks me up, but I'm fully aware that I'm a minority with that kind of sense of humour. If I would make a photo story with a projectile vomit theme, I have to keep in mind that it won't make that many people laugh out loud. It's taking the step back that Nefla suggested. You think it's great, but it is great for others too? If you think it's not the majority's cup of tea, show it to the specific minority that does like it and people are less likely to make a fuss.

 

Yes, that's all very well and good - but when the Majority does not extend the same courtesy to the Minority, it's hard to give a rat's ass about their sensibilities.

Show your material in a forum where it's legal & within the forum rules, and let the masses hash out their own feelings about it. Let them make a fuss. Maybe they will learn something about themselves, and maybe you will learn something about your own material.

 

I kind of agree with the sentiment here-

People depict things like rape and abuse in their doll stories likely because these dolls tend to be viewed as different enough from humanity and the ordinary that people are able to make these things also seem more removed from the ordinary- think of how many elf-catboy/girl-angel-demon-vampire-unicorn-water-sprite-fairies you've seen around here- I really don't think that most bjds look human at all- they look sort of superhuman, which allows us to take very human things and somehow make them EPIC rather than just sad, painful or humiliating.

I'm totally as guilty of it as anyone else, and so I think it also comes from the fact that most of us probably haven't had any actual experience with such horrible things- and knowing someone is hardly the same. I know someone- and I still couldn't possibly imagine what she went through, and continues to go though. That said- this isn't meant to suggest that people who put these things in their dolly back stories don't know what they're talking about- it's also possible that some of us use these things in order to cope with real life trauma- and it's possible that those who have actually been affected by these things would find the very notion absurd.

I suppose my point is that for those of us who've (thankfully) never personally experienced such things, it's probably a bit like being a little girl and trying on mum's shoes or dresses- you don't fit into them, they don't fit you- but the idea is interesting to try on- it's different, and it's unusual, and in this case, it's the most horrible thing you can think of to - as someone else mentioned- 'validate' your character, while simultaneously removing it as far from your actual mundane ordinary self as possible.

BJDs are out of the ordinary- even as a hobby, they're unusual, select, different. They look like the image of what everyone wishes they could be if pigs could fly and hell froze over. (And yes, I'm sure that there's one in thousands of bjds that looks like what you picture in your head when you make up stories about beautiful imaginary people.) So it stands to reason, that these 'super' people, can stomach even the worst of our worst- the most terrible of terrible things- things that we can't even clearly conceive unless they happen to us, but we imagine because sadly we see it happening around us. This is really what they end up being- what all the horrible things we can think of end up being when they become surreal and not quite 'fact.' That is again not to say that we can't understand things like rape and abuse- but honestly, can we? If you have never had the experience are you able to truly understand it?- and not empathy-wise, but true depth of emotion understanding- I think the answer to that is no. No one can honestly know of some physical pain that they've never felt.

So- is it scary that these things are surreal to us? In a way- but it's also maybe a gift- if it's surreal enough to happen in your fantasy land, then you've probably never had to go through it. (Again- not meant to be a judgment.) Do I condone it? Not necessarily- it's important that we don't let these things become to much of a fantasy to take it seriously in the real world.

That's it for my rant! :P

 

I don't see much of a problem with dollie abuse. A lot of these dolls are based off of peoples characters from stories. Those characters often have "dark" pasts, so it's sort of expected, I would think, that a few people feel brave enough to take their dolls and act out those parts of their characters. After all, these dolls for many of us are just 3-D representations of characters.

I think, though, people tend to use these great big life tragedies as easy ways to get people to sympathize and feel for these characters. It's easy to feel for someone whose been raped or had a really violent past. It's NOT easy to feel for someone who feels "misunderstood". Since more people go through the second than the first, it's easier to get a jolt reaction and instant pity out of the first. Sure, being misunderstood is something everyone goes through, but it's BECAUSE it's something everyone goes through that can make a reader or onlooker just toss it aside since it's as common as feeling happy or sad. It takes a REALLY talented story teller to make someone feel so strongly about the misunderstood character, as they do for the rape victim in someone elses story.

However, I have to disagree with the desensitizing side people are taking. We are, as a society, very desensitized to violence, sexual and physical, and especially verbal. We see it ALL the time, on TV, on the news, and every where else. I DO NOT think this is a good thing. Because of this mass exposure to such things, less and less people are likely to speak up that they don't want to see such things, or step up and try and change things. Why? Because rape seems as common as a small store robbery. Grand Theft Auto seems as petty as underage drinking. Some bad things are expected to be common. Others are becoming common, acceptable and expected, when they shouldn't be.


And to other people who've stated that people who depict such things have gone through them? I think you'll find the people who have been through such things stay away from sharing any art where they deal with those feelings. Why? Because those are some very highly personal feelings.

 

I'd rather try to keep other people's feelings into consideration when I want to express things with a known shock value whether I get the same in return or not, than going al "OMG, you were inconsiderate to me! Now I'm going to parade whatever I like in front of you and if you don't like it, don't look!" If others act like jerks, doesn't mean I have to stoop to the same level, but that is not what this debate is about.

On a different note and I'm sure it has been mentioned before, it's not only in BJDs that violence and abuse is depicted. It's also seen in (fan) fiction and I think a lot of people have already given good suggestions about why that happens.

 

i guess we never know until we see the impact around ourselves (other people around us and bigger real society (not bjd people society) or ourselves who make the story or love the story or just ok with the story of bjd-violence-depiction...then perhaps, society will make the rule that this kind of depiction isn't allowed or just go for it...

I can't really say they who made that kind of depiction used their 'victim' experience to do that....perhaps the other way around...(^.^)...i don't want to say anymore...haha...

tough debate, though

 

Well, I know I'm going a bit more art dolls & sculptural illustration here but isn't one of the most important parts of the history of doll photography the work of Hans Bellmer? For those of you not familiar, see http://www.artic.edu/reynolds/essays/taylor.php His work was all about the Surrealist & Dadaist preocupation with the shocking and disturbing. People have very unique concepts of this and stronger emotional reactions when it comes to representations of the human form....especiallly when it comes to media which has any connection to concepts of childhood... dolls, anime, manga, western animation, puppetry for instance. It especially works for dolls as, as many of us are all too familiar with the "ew, that doll is creepy" attitude to even the most innocent childlike beauty of a BJD, or the "creepy, dolls are just for kids wierdo!" attitude too.
People have their own unique limits, and are entitled to their own opinions. I think what is more important is the intention behind the images than anything else.

 

Actually this sub-issue is part of the debate: As long as somebody's content is forum-appropriate & -legal, even if it does have known shock value, then posting it is not "acting like a jerk". It is simply exercising the same freedom that the majority enjoys, based on the rules of that forum.

I take issue with the suggestion that artists need to restrict their audience to a predetermined minority niche only, merely because their work may not have a mainstream theme. The onus of 'audience-weeding' should not be placed on the artist; that is the job of the forum. As long as that content is legitimate content for its chosen forum, then any objections are the viewer's own problem, not the artist's.

 

I've looked at the occasional gore/horror mod, but I find they're not really my thing. I also stay away from 'western fashion-doll' types, because those are not my thing either. I have to admit I don't really look at that many boy doll posts either, because they're not my thing, though some are quite stunning. But I'm glad they're all here, because what if I change my mind someday? As long as a post is appropriately labeled, then there's no excuse for being 'offended'. Sometimes I think that getting one's knickers in a twist over some ridiculous 'offense' is the main part of this hobby. Which is rather tedious, actually.

Raven