Violence and depictions of abuse in the doll world?

"I do understand that many BJD people are coming from an anime/manga background & much of that is pretty violent as are video games so I suppose that helps influence folks' world view & fantasies."

Um, no. Just no. Not all anime and video games are violent gorefests, thank you, and I am rather offended when people think they are. Most of them aren't, but they are probably the ones you don't hear about as much. And even if someone did watch violent anime and play violent video games, that doesn't automaticly mean they are okay with acting out any other depictions of violence. Please don't just assume things like that about people.


And as for the topic at hand: even though we don't seem to treat it that way, violence is a pretty big deal. I'm not going to deny anyone the right to express themselves however they see fit, but we should keep in mind that depictions of violence are probably a lot more likely to trigger emotional trauma than say, depictions of nudity or drugs or other things like that. The idea that people could be hurt or offended by violence should not be dismissed as casually as if it was people being offended that you don't dress your dolls up nicely enough or that you don't like the same brand of BJD they do. Violence is acceptable in an artistic setting, but it should not be taken lightly.

 

Silk it might be my english which made the confusion , I use the word trauma meaning even a small trauma , if the case was a child reading one photostory that poped up (and then noticed & deleted by moderators) and get a bit shocked or once seing a horror movie and got shocked is most possible that will not be traumatized forever of course.

Βut this is a forum community , if a member is under 16 and enters in forum every day and every day is reading a new violent photostory with comments that glorify the whole concept of violence & then getting into debates & discussions and see people saying that those people who suffered by violence must shut up & accept violence depictions in a 13+ forum just because “people have not obligation to care” , or even saying that even true violence on humans is ok (and I saw it some times) & all those behaviours to be accepted or tolerated , then the child gets the message "we don't care about any other person and this is ok - violence is cool" from a community and feels that this is acceptable social behaviour … this ends up seriously harming the child , a child has not yet a settled mindset of ideas and all those may harm/traumatise/make senseless etc. the child .
..
I say that worse than the stories, is the discussion / debates because they always talk not only about the dolls but also for the true violence on true people and many times say it's normal or ok or even glorify violence , true violence
(or in other similar debate threads some glorified other antisocial-illegal behaviours p.e. drugs even with a dealer style propaganda , or sometimes misanthropic fascistic views e.t.c.) – threads like those end up projecting a whole violent & care-for-nothing philosophy for real things which can affect a children or teenager mind.
Also I cannot leave a negative comment to such a photostory like "oh this is sick", same with opinions on debates I can't call someone sick or senseless @**@ /antisocial @**@head etc cause it’s against the rules , but in real life in my country out on the street if you show some of those stories into a minor or say certain opinions you 'll get exactly those answers from people We should act here as we would do in real life and if some or worse many express philosophy like those then this forum is not a place for minors. By my side I use parental filter & if someone asks me about dolls to say among all other “don’t let the children browse the forums they state 13+ but they are 16+ and the discussions/debates 18+”.
(I'm sorry about my english it was a hard theme to put in words)
I personally showed the forum to other parents here in my country and everyone said that that is an adult forum , not even one of them said the opposite – not one , some even said it’s a forum with sick philosophy projected and used very hard language. By my side as much this goes on I have doa into my parental filter that’s my view.

 

Agnes-Agatha, while I agree with you that trauma can occur in some special cases (like retraumatizing) from viewing pictures depicting violence, I don't quite understand your rather passionate argumentation.

If you say that there are debate threads like this, please give a linked example. To me, what you say here sounds like an unfounded accusation. I have read a couple of threads where people were quite straight-forward with their maybe unusual opinions, but these were still always politically correct.

If this forum really was like real life, it would be much more 18+. Real life is much less politically correct, much more violence-filled, misanthropic, misogynistic, and dangerous place that these forums.
People who call this forum a forum with sick philosophy might say that simply because the hobby itself is alien to them, or to please you because they know you think it has a sick philosophy.

Do you prefer to lock up your 13-year-olds in a pink-coloured cage filled with ponies, fairies and magical sparkle? Believe me, they won't appreciate that. A 13 year old is not an adult, and should be protected. But this extreme level of protection is not provided in the real world you speak for. This 13-year-old usually already has seen quite a bit of news and movies (VERY often glorifying violence, both sexual and non-sexual!) on TV, been bullied - or has been bullying - at school, and if female, has maybe also already experienced some objectification as a sexual object. A 13 year old is an early teen, and probably doesn't consider her/himself a child anymore. This forum is NOT for children under 13, this much is clear. But why this attempt to keep out young people who might also be interested in dolls? Do you really want the forum to become 18+?

Hard language can be a form of verbal violence by the way.

 

Examples of not care are in this thread , the other examples are in similar theme threads but the philosophy is all arround this forum when such subjects occur it's not only a certain troll so to give a link and all become ok.It's either you see it or not.
...
No dollblue I haven't seen what you say around me because even if there are some sick persons out there , they are minority and when they express their misanthropic feelings the rest of people do not tolerate that , at least at the place where I live.
TV programs are getting worse and worse but this is also something that people don't like here. That's why we demand access to culture and education for everyone and try to avoid TV garbage . Also channels here are forbidden to put violence programs in daytime before 11pm. But even without that tv stays a true decadence and getting worse that’s the system (a system that can change). That's why I’m being very selective with tv for myself to , I'm a person of culture and need no decadence. But who said that tv world is the real one , the real word I'm talking is the world of working people. This forum ending up projecting a philosophy of violence / not-care as the right thing, that's the problem . It's not the right thing it's the wrong thing, period. All parents I asked agreed with me , it's maybe a difference of the places we live but in my area people usually think this way.
This theme exceeds my language skills so I can't continue debating but the last I say is that into such conversations we always say that the world is a hell and we should get used to it , when people care to change things in society they can do it , so caring and fighting for a better world is my way and ideals , if there is violence in the world well the working people are the ones that can stop it . I'm not closing children away telling them the world is perfect which is not but trying to bring up people who struggle for their rights and other's peoples rights , people who care/respect/trust people and fight for their rights/struggle for a better life for themselves and people around them (also we try to give children a proper judgement skill so to know who to trust or not and certain opinions I heard is the word key of not-trust-this-person).
World is surely a hell but it's not something we can't change or that we should accept and hide in the corner. If a community is full of people who actually like the fact that world is hell or not-even-care/tolerate it projects a sick/misanthropic philosophy or not-care/pathetic philosophy about true things in life into conversations. Which is not the message I get into the society I live by the most people , the message I get is that the world can go forward to a better future and that this can be only archived with organised struggle of working people , and I feel that we own it to children to make this reality.
Well if I continue I'll break the rules here and I also admit that I truly don't have the language skills to explain it better but sure I didn't talk about unicorns or a fairy bubble.


**** Hard language is ok when someone says "I don't care for other's real trauma" in a 13+ forum ??? -this thread- (which should be not controversial) and it's violence when someone says "guys hold a bit back if you wish the forum to be minors friendly" ... well that's what I said : anyone can post violence frienly things but when someone says "lines are crossed & forum now is on my parental filter" is suddenly verbaly violent ... in different words "accept violence and shut up" ?? - well that's what makes me use the parental filter , that's exactly the philosophy I'm talking about.

 

@dollblue: I agree, stories could very well act as triggers for those who've had a bad experience.

@Agnes-Agatha: First of all: I don't think you're verbally violent, but I do think that leaving hypothetical "oh, this is sick"- comments on this forum, is inappropriate. If you'd formulate your opinion differently, using less offensive words, I don't see why you couldn't tell someone you don't agree the content of a shoot. Best thing though, is to not comment at all, because galleries are not really the place to give negative feedback. Debates, however, are THE place to formulate whatever opinion you might have.

I've read the debates you talk about and I don't see a majority of misanthropic ideas. What I do see are people who want to avoid sensorship, but I don't see that as agreeing with violence and drug abuse. I see it as a need of wanting to use these difficult topics in stories, because we are confronted with them on a daily basis. We want to wrap our head around what's going on.

Do we really want to never shoot a WWII movie ever again, because it will show violence and could be confronting for those who either had similar experiences or never came in contact with this topic before? Because then we'll have to sensor about 90% of human history and we could never learn from it.

The way I see it: humans are not lovey-dovey people. We have a very dark corner in our hearts and even the gentlest of all people are capable of doing something hurtful. I don't think it is wrong to focus on that and see how and why this could happen and what the consequences are, not only for the victim, but for everyone in that community - as long as it is suitable for this forum and as long as the message underneath isn't gloryfying the violence.
I do think that we could change the world, but only if we acknowledge its nature. If we close our eyes to the violence around us, we'll become part of the problem, not the solution.

 

I never sent a negative comment to galleries , if you read carefully you'll see that I say that the only thing I finally do is to use my parental filter & also posted here in this debate now , it might be my inability in english language that cofused you.
If someone makes a movie to glorify fascistic-imperialistic war crimes I'm sure that most of the world will have problem with that & I will have problem with that too .
I don't have a dark side I'm not capable to do things you describe even in my worst moment I'm not like that cause I have principles , I don't know for other people I don't believe that everyone can become a monster from one day to another. All those it's a matter of conscience and principles. That's all I have to say , I've said my opinion & I've been as much crear I can. I won't post more in this thread cause I've said my opinion already.

 

I can easily understand both sides of this agument.
On one side, I have a fasination with darker stories. I think they help people understand the mindset of the attacker and victim, and cope with how these things happen in the real world. I would love to see more these stories myself, but...
I have a little sister who recently turned 13 (she's not on this forum) and there are things on here that the overprotective big sister part of me wouldn't want her to see. When I actually stop and think about it though, and quiet the "but she's my baby sister", I know she's actually seen much worse in movies and on tv already, and who knows what she's seen with her friends she often surprises me with what she knows.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think kids are as emotionally sensative as we give them credit for, and yes they need to be protected from seeing too much, but at the same time it's easy to go too far in the other direction when you get emotionally involved.

 

My views on this are probably irrelevant, but I'll put in my two cents anyway.

Personally, some of the stories that touch on darker topics are fascinating. I find it interesting when they later show how the characters recover from their abuse and are able to move on. It wouldn't surprise me if these kinds of stories are some sort of personal therapy to help one get over their own issues in an indirect way, or if the individuals posting such stories are simply in it for the shock value that they are likely to receive.

Given the nature of the forum's 13+ rating, I believe that by that age, individuals should at least have the maturity to decide what they want to view and what they don't. The choice should be theirs. It isn't as if they are lacking the knowledge that the things that are being depicted in some of the more dark and violent stories happen in real life. I see no point in sheltering people from what they are already exposed to through other forms of media. If they stumble upon something that they are uncomfortable with, those handy little "X' and "back" buttons are right at their disposal.
Most people, even at thirteen, aren't so sensative as to have an emotional melt down that traumatizes them for life due to some pictures that they found here. I haven't seen anything on DoA that has made me want to run and cry to my mother over the vast amounts of terror and horror that said images or debate topics incited in me. If there are people glorifying acts such as rape or violence of any kind, that is for the moderators and admins to deal with. They can decide whether it is vulgar or inappropriate enough to be taken off of the forum.

By 13, I don't think that people should be sheltered from violence unless it's extremely gorey to the point of being tasteless or if it is sexually explicit. You have to examine this, not from an emotional standpoint, but from a logical one. Kids see things, they may worry about them for a little while or be mildly disturbed, but then they just kind of get over it and find something more interesting to care about. If they don't get over it, then they can seek counsel from those close to them and take more care to avoid things like that in the future.

 

I know, that's why I was quoting the hypothetical comment you used in an earlier post (you know, when you said you sometimes wished you could freely speak your mind and say "that's sick"?).

 

I have to admit, I don't understand the fascination some people have with horrible backstories involving rape, abuse, violence, etc. Some of my characters DO have abusive pasts, but I also have characters that have very happy, safe pasts. The ones with bad pasts have realistically bad pasts...things that wouldn't be uncommon to find at least a couple of examples in group of 25 or so adult people.

I role play my characters and in RP, you DO see a LOT of "he was raped", or "her parents died when she was little and she grew up in an orphanage" or "he was abused as a kid but grew up to be a hero/villain", etc in stories and it really just gets old to me. I have allowed some violence in RP, but now I really prefer to keep it realistic. A bar fight, maybe. Kidnapped and tortured? No. Just no.

I don't think it has a negative effect on people or that it has anything to do with underlying personal issues so much as it does trying to make a character special, but in reality, trying too hard and just making them like every other "victim" out there.

 

Soooo, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but things like rape and sexual abuse aren't realistic types of violence? When 1 in 6 adult women are raped and that on average a rape happens ever 2 minutes. And 60% of rapes aren't even reported. So out of the 25 people in your room at least 3 of them would have been raped or sexually abused.

 

Through my job, I meet a lot of people with "realistically bad pasts". You would be surprised how much more traumatic and horrifying their "realistically bad" experiences are than a simple bar fight.

I can understand what you mean with "trying too hard", though. Exaggerating tendencies are certainly present in some characters I have seen out there. Still, I would not generalize here. There are well-done, respectfully and artistically depicted characters with victim-experiences too. It is not the topic, it is how you handle it that makes the difference.

I agree with you completely, Cloudedmind. I am always amazed by how underestimated the true violence- and abuse-victim numbers are. That is just what I tried to argue about with Agnes-Agatha a couple of posts earlier - that the world in reality is a much darker place that many people want to believe. Closing our eyes and keeping silence about it doesn't help it get better.

 

Now I'm curious: what, in your opinion, are realistic bad pasts?

After reading your post I don't get if you mean with unrealistic backgrounds the kind of stories that go like this: "when he was two he accidently killed his daddy by stabbing him 9 times in the chest. Then he did drugs. Then he got kidnapped. Then he died. Then he got raped, but he's still the same sunshine and rainbows he's always been, because he's still just an innocent child at heart. *sigh*"

... or the stories that tell about a boy who's been physically abused by his father and now struggles with agression himself, because he doesn't know how to let anyone get close to him?

 

As BJD have become more popular, there has been an increasingly popular trend of depicting violence and sexual abuse using dolls. Where does this come from?

Every other fictional media ever.

It's rather like asking how violence wound up on film when originally it was all G rated-fluff. When a media is new, the uses of it are limited. As the media gains traction and more artists use it, the subject matter will diversity to cover all available avenues of storytelling. As the community grows, there are more artists, covering a greater variety of story types.

Does viewing depictions of violence/sexual abuse against a non-human object have an effect on real people?

Given that dolls are generally regarded as human (or elfin, or otherwise "person) characters, it likely has little impact as to whether or not the dolls themselves are human. Violent paintings, cartoons, and CG movies depict technically non-human characters as well, and violence in any of those media would be expected to have an effect. Once again, BJD Photostories are merely a new media. They are no different, and should not be treated different than other media.

Is this quantifiable or supported by any sort of existing research, or is this view based purely on opinion?
Opinion and a working knowledge of art history covering a variety of media.

Moving on to address topics in the thread...
(And yes... I read the whole thing.)

If I am correct in the presumption that this debate, as many others have stated is about the existence of these things in the doll fandom at all, and not merely on this board... I think that the direction it has taken is extremely telling.

There is no question of censorship on a private forum. It is 100% permissible. One's freedom of speech does not entitle one to a venue. It is up to the person or persons who own a venue to decide what can and cannot be displayed on their property. If this board is to have a PG-13 rating, then that is what this board is to have, and all should abide by it.

But there are many opinions posted in this thread to the effect that certain types of stories simply should not be told, that to cover certain topics is inherently wrong, or indicates a strong likelyhood of mental defect on behalf of the artist or storyteller. This is bizarre to say the least, from my point of view, particularly when many are espousing that there is somehow an inherent difference between depicting violence and abuse in one media, and another. This is patently false. Whether it be a written story or a painting, a woodcutting or a BJD photo story, the subject matter is what it is, and the media is what it is. Certainly there is a certain amount of interplay, and the selection of one's media can be used to increase effectiveness of one's message, but to say that a certain subject matter should be addressed only in a particular media and not some other is assigning properties to media which they do not possess.

Someone else said earlier on this thread that freedom from speech trumps freedom OF speech.

This phraseology can only bring up in me, a quote from Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale, in which the women of a totalitarian regime are having explained to them what their return to the kitchen has given to them. “There is more than one kind of freedom. Freedom to and freedom from. In the days of anarchy, it was freedom to. Now you are being given freedom from. Don't underrate it.” They used to have the freedom of deciding their own path... now they have the freedom from having to make any decisions at all. Some of them may in fact enjoy that... but it should not trump all people's freedom to choose, just to make some feel more comfortable.

Freedom FROM should only trump freedom TO when that which one is being free FROM is of utmost importance. Free from being robbed, free from being injured, free from being killed... free FROM anything that the law arrests people for doing.

We are not granted anywhere in this world, freedom from being offended, freedom from feeling uncomfortable, or freedom from "bad art."

To say that violent doll photostories should not exist because they offend one's personal sensibilities, would be rather much like me saying that dubstep music should not exist because I find it incredibly disturbing and unpleasant to listen to. But being that I value artistic freedom, I simply choose NOT TO LISTEN TO IT.

"Don't like, don't look" isn't a case of anyone being a jerk to anyone else, any more than a library stocking a book you don't like is them being a jerk to you.

And that's my $20.

8^/

 

I do agree with your post, but this sentence reminded me of a 1920's silent movie I saw a few years back. It was a pirate flick and it had a few violent scenes and although nothing was shown on screen (because it wouldn't have been technically possible at the time), the implication of what happened shocked me more than the avarage blood and gore we see on television today. They were the kind of scenes today's hollywood directors will usually shy away from, unless your name is Alan Ball and you're creating a television show called True Blood.

It surprised me to see it in a silent movie of all things. I always thought that they were gentle films with lots of humor and adventure. I didn't expect any of this to come from the hollywood industry. So, apparently somewhere between the 1920's and 1950's the idea of what was 'appropriate' to show, or to imply, changed. I guess its not an off assumption to think that society changed in the same way.

 

As the hobby becomes more popular, the number of collectors with taste for violence and sexual crimes increases as well. It comes from a growing community of collectors with a diversity of tastes and unorthodox doll playing.

Everything we see has an effect on us, real people. Violence and sexual crimes evoke stronger reactions than mundane portrayals of humanity. I believe these pics causes some of us to project ourselves as being either the victim or the perpetrator in a situation in which someone gets very hurt.

The act of raping someone or the act of hurting anyone in any form is not art at all. However depictions of rape and violence are considered art in our current society. It is hard to determine what falls into the "art" category. Art hosts a lot of human expressions, some healthy others not.

These sad depictions cannot be isolated from what our members get exposed to through other mediums, thus impossible to measure. Would a rapist be able to blame his crime on exposure to doll pictures alone?

If we as a community have concerns that our underage fellow hobbyists are being overexposed to adult material via DOA, we should probably have those threads in an 18+ section.

I have a feeling that the question surrounds around glamorizing portrayals of rape and violence. I wouldn't want that personally.

 

As BJD have become more popular, there has been an increasingly popular trend of depicting violence and sexual abuse using dolls.

Where does this come from?

observing rule 4 I'll leave it with this: personal experience can have a large effect on how people portray their dolls


Does viewing depictions of violence/sexual abuse against a non-human object have an effect on real people?

I don't believe it makes people commit crimes. But I do believe it strikes reaction; personally, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like it in movies or on TV, I certainly don't like it in dolls. I don't mind depictions of anti-domestic violence/sexual abuse, but bringing light to those matters has always made me down right angry. For personal reasons, really.

Is this quantifiable or supported by any sort of existing research, or is this view based purely on opinion?

I personally do not believe it will have people comitting crimes. I suppose I could go into my research paper done in my first year of college. Our assignment was to see what the direct affect was on the Adult Industry and the Home Life. I chose Child Sex Abuse. While it didn't seem that child pornography made people become pedophiles, it certainly was alarming at how easily obtainable this material was. And it was even more shocking and sickening as to how many people came out and said they have, at some point in their life, owned pornography with people under the age of 18, or as the actors depicted as someone under the age of 18. I was disgusted and appalled, but it was also noted that a lot of these people were not sex offenders to children or adults in any way. However, some were. But most of the people openly said that there is a very big difference between fantasy and reality, it's a fine line that should never be crossed.

On another note, I do support artwork. Not all artwork is tasteful or appealing to everybody. While bringing light to rape and violence/abuse makes me enraged and severely uncomfortable, I cannot critisize someone's artistic/creative eye.

In my own dollyworld, rape/abuse can be a very important part of a backstory. Trauma can be a powerful thing that shapes who a person is. However, while it may be a part of one of my character's stories, I don't think I'd ever be able to depict it in a photo. Trauma isn't a joke, and certainly isn't something I'd like to dote upon. In writing, I can shun the violence into darkness by writing in the victims point of view. I think I would find it very difficult to have a photostory based on rape or abuse without making it seem... pretty? When it comes to my dolls and photography, my eye is more positive and happy with butterflies and rainbows XD however my writing is more dark.

I think no matter what happens, abuse and violence will show up everywhere. Point being that it exists, and everyone's going to see it at some time or another.

Please also keep in mind, from a psychological standpoint... a lot of people that may put sex abuse or violence in their photography may very well be victims themselves; as a person who has taken many psychology classes, and has been in therapy for over 12 years, I often find that artwork like this is comes from the victims own state of abuse/past experiences. It is something I have discussed with many people, including victims themselves.

That's my take on it, anyway. Wow. This was long. lol, sorry ^^;

 

That would be a result of the exact sort of sentiment we're seeing here. By the 1920s, film had been in use for over 15 years, and was gaining popularity fast. As happens, the subject matter diversified, and BOOM backlash. The era of G-rated fluff you are thinking of was not the initial one, but the result of a large number of people trying to recapture that time, by censoring the hell out of the media. The Motion Picture Production Code, or Hays Code, pretty much neutered film from 1930, up thru the late 60s. Similar backlashes happened with Comic Books and Television in the 1950s, causing those media to temporarily revert to fluffy bunny land, for a time.

There will always be "moral watchdogs" who try to decide what is and is not appropriate storytelling, but I do not relish living in a time when such a backlash has the power to choke a whole media.

8^/

 

I don't care for depictions of violence or violent acts with dolls. There's too much of THAT around in "real life" for me to enjoy during my doll time. I define "doll time" as not only the time I spend interacting* with my own dolls, but coming to a place like DoA, and reading the posts and looking at the great pics.

* = To be perfectly honest, interacting is not only playing with my dolls, but using their "help" to get me past writer's block in many instances.

 

Thanks for sharing, that's really interesting. And frightening too. I agree with you and hope that time won't return.