Violence and depictions of abuse in the doll world?

I'd like to see the science that goes behind this sort of theory that exposing you to images of violence makes you stronger. What I do see actual scientific research on is that it desensitizes people. Which isn't exactly something you can call a positive.

Death? There is absolutely ZERO visually, that helps people accept death. Nada. Spiritually, physically, emotionally, in counseling dealing with death head on, sure, but images of death? No. That doesn't happen.

Seeing images of and reading constant rape material is not going to make a person stronger when dealing with rape or less affected by it. Volunteer at a woman's shelter and you will find out how absurd that logic is.

 

You know what? I feel that my entire point and a few others from other people have been completely lost in a struggle with usagi and her wording. *sigh*

 

I can understand that, but I personally have not responded to others yet simply because they've made very good points, and I've not found any particular point to raise debate against. XD

 

Wow, already some interesting analysis has come up! There's essentially just one point I would like to make: Dolls and the photoshoots/stories they are featured in are another way for portraying a fictional story. Many normal people, who haven't experienced any great trauma, don't want to see everyday life- they want DRAMA, and they include it to add excitement or interest. That said, so far none of my planned doll characters have been involved in any kind of abuse and I'm fine with that.

Also, in a somewhat "gothic" way, some people DO view trauma/rape etc. as a romantic subject or character element, especially in a fictional setting.

I think doll violence (sexual or otherwise) must have some degree of effect on everyone who sees it- after all, we are supposed to be able to pick up "moods" from inanimate objects that don't resemble humans or animals in the slightest! However, I don't think doll violence will cause any big problem to anyone who chooses to view it if warned (as you might be able to guess, anyone who HAS had a dark past I would probably not recommend look at related topics unless they are completely over it), and I don't believe that it will cause anyone here go out and rape or injure anyone.

 

I am extremely confused about why it's being argued that trauma survivors don't need therapy. Just searching for two seconds on Google brought up an organization that works on better treating child traumatic stress through cognitive therapy. If I searched for longer I would undoubtedly find hundreds of organizations saying the same things, that people who have been through traumatic events need therapy to get through them.

Attacking me for not being a psychologist is, in my opinion, ridiculous. If your friend has a broken leg you can easily tell them "Go to a hospital!" The same thing can be said for anyone who has taken a few psychology and health classes and sees a friend with issues with violence. I don't tell people to get help because I hate and want to humiliate them, I say it because I see someone who appears to be suffering, and I've been taught in my classes to urge them to get help. I think therapy can benefit everyone, but especially people with extreme fixations.

I think people are forgetting that personal attacks aren't allowed here.

 

I completely agree.

I think that sometimes desensitisation can be a good thing. My life hasn't exactly been all rainbows and butterflies, and of course I've been brought up on the internet - and the internet is the number one most graphic source you can ever find.

You can become very used to images of violence and stories of abuse or whatnot, and so it can become more 'normal' in your mind. In a way this makes sense, because it is unfortunately a surprisingly big part of society all over the world. It cannot be ignored.

However, viewing these things does not make a person more capable of handling such a situation themself. Every situation is unique, and there is no amount of preperation for something like that, even if you're someone who is practically addicted to fictional violence.

I also do think that some people who find such things very interesting do sometimes glorify it, and that can be quite uncomfortable. People who take it in like some kind of subculture, and consider themselves superior for their beliefs.

 

Usagi, please re-read what I said? C:

No-one is saying that, I completely agree with you that victims of trauma should seek help for their problems in order to better themselves. What we're saying is, you made the assumption that people who depict violence are victims of violence.

That's quite a different matter, and a very big and serious opinion. It would have been better if you had tried to support that opinion with something, instead of being so blunt.

 

I absolutely agree with this, as well as the point that was made in a later post about using violence as an extreme way to garner sympathy for the character. First, there is nothing wrong with this--it's a completely valid fictional device. Some people prefer to be obvious, some people prefer to be subtle, either way works. But it is definitely true that there is a kind of "celebrity value" in having a traumatic past, and I think that is sometimes, consciously or not, taken into account when designing a character's past. That doesn't say anything bad about the creator; it's a function of the creation process.

I also think Celebare has a great point that sometimes it's simply fun to mod the physical dolls and it has nothing to do with the violence per se. I'm nowhere near that talented, but I can totally see how just the artistic experimentation could be a blast--even just sewing clothing is fun.

 

I agree with this a lot. We're so fascinated by sex and violence in our entertainment because we're not supposed to like it. It's horrible in real life, but when you repackage it into something that is not connected at all with reality, we can explore our darker sides and enjoy the thrill of indulging our baser impulses. All without hurting anyone. These dolls are an interesting way of doing this, especially for those of us who don't possess a talent for drawing it or expressing it with words. Photography is something you can practice and digital cameras make it much more accessible to those less artistically inclined.

This isn't something that exists solely in doll fandom, it's in every fandom. They're common fantasies that a lot of people across the board have had, and they're not intended, for the most part, to be accurate reflections of the actual act and it's consequences and implications in real life. Rape fantasies are one of the most prevalent and common in women, are they accurate reflections of what rape really is and would someone who enjoys those fantasies actually want to be raped? Of course not, but the romanticized version explores some definite dark thrills. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

There was violence long before there were movies or books or pictures depicting them, and I believe there will always be violence. It's human nature. We have slasher flicks and R-rated movies, the Romans had gladitorial fights. It affects everyone differently. I am unfazed by slasher fics and anything I see visually, and the more action the better. I'm a huge Tarantino fan and am alway watching 70s exploitation movies. Yet I still have nightmares about a Discovery Channel documentary I watched about emotional trauma in elephants that leads to them attacking humans. That program haunts me and it in no way glorified or romanticized violence, it was educational.

There will always be bad eggs and those who can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy. I don't think we should censor ourselves just in case something bad might happen. With freedom comes risk, and it's a risk I am willing to take. If you are easily offended by such things, then you are always free to hit the back button on the internet. No one forces you to look, and to demand that people stop doing something just because it is offensive to you treads upon censorship issues which are another debate entirely.

And this is all my opinion, of course.

 

Members who are interested in the Grotesque are feeling personally attacked, usagi, because they are "hearing" you state that this sort of attraction requires therapy. Your "opinion" has now been stated and perhaps...needs to be let alone for a bit.

On that subject - if a person is using bjds as a form of amatuer art therapy for their own Healing, then that's wonderful. However, it would be a breach of their own privacy to have others become unwilling or even willing partners in that form of experimental play.

Carry on!

 

*please feel free to delete this as I did not see the mods post before I posted it*

I agree with you Usagi. you have a right to your opinion and I do feel that many depictions of such intense violence in photo stories my be a symptoms of serious problems.

Another reason why such imagery should not belong here is brought up by what you have said. Most of us are not trained in such matters and therefore do not know how to deal with them properly. A certain amount of responsibility comes with allowing such images to posted on a site and I can understand why DOA has chosen not to want to undertake that responsibility.

 

Again, let's practice what we preach. I said "I also think most people preoccupied with violence probably had a traumatic past, and instead of taking photos of dolls they should be talking about it in therapy." If the person is not preoccupied with it then my statement is not about them.

 

I'm sorry, could you perhaps clarify what I was trying to preach? I don't fully understand.

To my knowledge, I don't recall contesting against what you said.

 

I think it's a shame people don't think everyday life is good enough for a story. Some of the best stories I've read involve everyday life. When someone can make the mundane interesting and fascinating, now that's an achievement to me.

Hm...I also think it says quite a bit about current thinking that violence and abuse is what a lot of people pick as a way to produce drama. Plain old fashion romance, friendship, parental stories aren't good enough without a good dose of terror, horror and pain.

 

I see that point being brought up that such images in "dollplay" so to speak, are not connected to reality, or are outside of reality.

This is not true. These ideas are being thought up by and posted by "real" people and "real" people are viewing them.

To say that these images of sex and violence is outside of reality is, well, faulty in my opinion.

 

In a fictional realm like our fandom, or any fandom for that matter, why is it so bad to think that it's cool?

 

I have to mention, I am of the belief that anyone that is seriously influenced by gore, violence, abuse, rape, etc. in media or art has much more important issues to worry about. Some people study things like that for years and are not effected, at least not to the extent to feeling that they are things that they should practise themselves.

I cannot believe that media is to blame for people's actions, even if it's a copycat case. I truly believe that any person, especially when it comes to young people, who copies something violent on television, a video game, from the internet, etc. has serious issues that need to be tended to.

I could of course be wrong, but it's something I've always thought simply because I am a big fan of horror movies and I've never felt the need to hurt anyone.

I think it's probably a slightly worrying matter that a person might find harm against another human being 'cool'.

If it's fictional, then I gather that the difference is that they enjoy fictional expression of such subjects, but not anything real. That's where the line has to be drawn before the person steps outside of fiction.

 

I agree with this as well. I prefer to be more subtle in my characters and stories--I feel that simple drama can be MORE evocative than violence because it seems so low-key until you really see how it affects the characters. I think using violence is easier because the responses are so obvious: "If I have Bob hit Susie, then that will be traumatizing." If the situation were more like, "Bob has fallen out of love with Susie but doesn't want to leave her because it would hurt their family, how will everyone respond?" I think the results will be somewhat deeper, and more interesting to me personally. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone.

 

Every comment I've read in this thread I've found some truth in. We must remember that not everyone creating a photostory about one doll raping another has the same reasons for doing so. Person 1 could be doing as Usagi665 suggests, they could be preoccupied unhealthily with the act, and it could be a sort of 'cry for help'. Person 2 could naively be trying to create an interesting and gripping storyline after reading a similar story in a yaoi manga. Person 3 could have read Person 1 and Person 2's photostories and decided to create a similar scenario based on how interesting they found them to read.

I think alot of the violent scenarios we see created using dolls are actually similar. I think alot are influenced by each other. People see that the rape storyline for example recieved alot of heartfelt comments and so find appeal in it. I am in no way saying that everyone who creates violent storylines is just copying another person, but I do believe there is an influence, especially when the storylines are seen to be popular. If we don't think anyone will post comments to our photostories, we don't put them up.

 

How is any of this different from what I stated earlier? Yet I was attacked for it by you when I posted..?