Violence and depictions of abuse in the doll world?

A valuable statement.

 

No, but the justification of "it's fiction, so it's okay" is ridiculous. Just because it's fiction does not make violence okay. Yes, it's not real, but that does not make the concept of violence "cool" or "okay."

This isn't to say people shouldn't like it or think it's cool. It's not a matter of real vs. fiction. Fiction can be portrayed just as realistically as we see reality. Similarly, sometimes reality can seem so unreal that it looks faked. Take away that whole "I know the difference between fiction and reality idea" for a minute. Claiming you know the difference implies that you think everyone who doesn't think fictional violence is cool doesn't know the difference.

If you say you don't think it's cool "in reality" how come you can't understand why it's bad to call it cool even if it's fiction. It doesn't mean YOU think it's bad, but how can you possibly not understand why many people think it is bad?

 

As far as acting out on fantasies after looking at dolls, I think it's the same as any other type of violent or sexual content. It depends on the person. Some people will end up doing something terrible from lack of self control, and others keep their fantasies in check.

As far as the Violence and abuse itself, I think it's okay so long as it's obvious its not just a porno. If your character was abused as a Child, and it's crucial to the story development to show that, that's great, and I respect that. But if you're just taking those types of photos to get your rocks off? Not so great.

 

I think this "trend" (even though it is not only prevelant in this hobby, obviously!) is an extension of adrenline-junkies and the like. Why do people like to ride rollercoasters or go through haunted houses, or watch violent movies? It's a terrifying but controlled experience that you are going to survive. After you come out the other side of said experience, whether or not you want to go through it again, you feel a bit more in control of your own life for a brief time.

Dolls are a controlled experience, so to speak. You have to pose them, you have to decide how they look, you are also in charge of their "fates". It's a controlled experience were you can explore many dangerous situations, activities, emotional baggage, etc. Even people who don't come from a violent or abusive background like to explore such things! Maybe part of it is because it is taboo, or maybe part of it is plain curiousity. We think, after having such a controlled experience, that if we encountered it in real life we would be more in control. Most people know this isn't the case, which is why I think the controlled environment has such a great appeal to many people. It allows them to explore safely what is not normally considered safe. It doesn't make dealing with any emotional issue or violent situation easier, in my opinion.

 

Actually, I was involved in a similar discussion on a non-related doll forum a few weeks ago. A certain TV show had an incident where the main character was attacked by a guy she had been formerly involved with. In the context of the show, it was portrayed as and referred to as attempted rape. However, several fans were stating things along the lines of "It wasn't rape because he loves her and just wanted her back" and "What did she expect being involved with him?" Anyone who dared disagree was written off as hating the male character.

I don't necessarily think that portraying violence in a positive light will actually cause people to go out and perpetrate violence. But I do think the desensitization to such behavior is dangerous. I've already seen people callously brush off fictional violence with the same types of excuses that people use in real life incidents. And this wasn't glorified violence at all... this was a VERY disturbing and horrific scene that was about as graphic and brutal as I've seen on network television. If people aren't finding anything wrong when confronted with that sort of imagery, how are they going to react when they hear the vaguest details of a real-life incident? And how would a rape victim agonizing over telling someone about their ordeal feel reading statements like "it was her fault?"

Obviously, this is a bit of a different situation and not doll-related. But I think that portraying violence in a positive light and being unable to recognize violence portrayed in a negative light are basically symptoms of the same disturbing trend. And for those who think desensitization is a bunch of hogwash, just one question: Did you ever say "Why in the world would anyone ever pay _____ for a DOLL?"

 

I like to think of the difference between rape fantasy and rape reality is pretty simple, actually. (Because I think it's perfectly normal for people to fantasise about rape situations.)

Rape is unwanted.

Rape fantasy is wanted.

It's like "rape play", which I won't go into because I don't think it's appropriate for this forum.

But people seem to not realise the simplicity of the difference. The fantasy is desired, the reality is not.

If you want rape when it occurs, it's not so much rape anymore - though perhaps still abuse.

 

Heh. Actually, my friend nearly cried and couldn't sleep after watching the show. ^_^; And another friend said it was a stupid show because she did find some of their actions disturbing. Unfortunately, I was one of those people who was cheering during some of the violent scenes.

However, I think what most people find strange is that you're asking why is it wrong to say violence and abuse is cool in fiction. I'm sure it's not hard to understand why some, many might not see it as cool in any form.

I like my action and I like my violence but I wouldn't label it as cool either. And you have to admit, most of the violence and abuse in photostories are less to do with something like 300 or murder-type mysteries. Violence and abuse in photostories run more along the lines of self-abuse, abusing lovers, abusing friends, abusing family, rape, etc. And these are the type of violence and abuse I especially find it hard to reconcile as 'cool', fictional or not.

 

I agree so much that it's insane.

 

Some fiction needs to exist. If they go kill someone in PVP on an MMORPG instead of killing their neighbor that is using a loud leaf blower and making them angry then I'm all for it. It's more when art is getting into torture and premeditated murder/rape/whatever that bothers me, as that's not something that is just blowing off steam.

 

True, but isn't the difference mostly because the person being "raped" (actually or just in fantasy) cannot control the actual rape situation- they can't just stop thinking about it or say a keyword to get out of it if it gets too much for them.

 

No. Just no. If someone's going to kill someone, they're not going to let off steam in a video game, they're going to kill someone. To say what you're saying implies that everyone'd be a murderer if they didn't have fiction to get it out.

 

I partially agree. I think that letting off steam via games and such with violent themes is a good idea, in that it's fictional fun.

I also think that art depicting something violent as a result of someone wishing to do those things is a serious issue and the person needs to resolve it in a different manner.

But also, I think that a lot of fictional art and such concerning violent situations are not because the artist wishes to harm someone.

 

Mm, I sort of agree.

In a fantasy, they don't need to control it, because it's wanted. No matter how much it is 'rape' in their mind, it's not a real situation and if it's a fantasy in the sense that they enjoy it, it's not true 'rape'.

True rape is truly unwanted I think, often because the person cannot control or escape the situation.

 

I never said anything about premeditated murder, I said if someone is getting very upset at someone and they need a way to blow off steam, better it be hurting someone's avatar than the actual person. Many people use violence as a means of releasing stress, and that's where I think violent art can be used well. Someone who is planning a murder of a specific person will of course not be swayed by a video game, but again, that's not what I claimed would happen.

 

I can see why people don't think it is cool and I can see why people do see it as being cool. What I don't understand is why those that do find it interesting and cool should be ashamed of viewing it that way. And it's been brought up a lot in the discussion over the new rule that a person is doing it for any of a number of reason except thinking it's cool, implying that that one reason was less valid or more reprehensible than the others.

 

I think that the seeing of fictional violence as "cool" is not so much in the violence itself, but rather the way it's portrayed. For instance, a movie scene in which a man walks up to another man and tears his arm off while lots of obviously fake blood spills out....is probably going to be seen as gross and tasteless by most people. On the other hand, a movie scene with an elaborately-choreographed fight sequence with lots of dynamic angles and special effects, culminating in a man's arm being ripped off, would have a lot of people gushing about how awesome it is.

Of course, some people may find the former scene "cooler" than the latter, depending on 1) personal taste and 2) the context of the scene, but my point is that I feel most people who say violence is "cool" are talking more about an artful presentation of fictional violence than violence itself.

(I just want to emphasize that I am talking about fictional violence only, and trying to explain why someone might be able to find fictional violence "cool" without necessarily being super-desensitized to violence or having mental issues or whatever. I certainly don't think that a real-life trainwreck would be anything but tragic, even if the news story did have some very artful pictures of it.)

edit: Everyone types so fast... There were like eight posts between the time I started typing and the time I hit 'post'.

 

Saying "instead of killing their neighbor" implies that if that video game was not there, they would kill their neighbor. Your wording is consistently bad in these posts, and it's no wonder people misunderstand what you're saying. I also never said anything about premeditated murder. If someone is going to get angry enough to kill someone, a video game is not going to stop that.

There's a huge difference between letting off steam and saying that someone who actually gets angry enough to kill another person would not kill that person because a game allows them to act it out.

 

I notice that the BJD community seems to be tied increasingly tighter to the anime community, specifically the yaoi community. Whenever there's a major anime convention, there is always a new flood of users... and many of the "Where did you learn about BJD?" answers lately have been related to seeing or hearing about dolls within anime circles. Anime and manga deal more directly with rape and violence, and both can be very romantic (blood, sparkles and feathers and all that). I think this influence has come through in the BJD community, even if just in the formulaic backstories that have become rather rampant.

I believe that frequent exposure to depictions of violence and rape do serve to desensitize.... and at the same time, make us more subconsciously aware of possibilities. When I was living in Japan, images of rape and violence were pretty much omnipresent - at hobby shops, there would be figurines of children in extremely sexual positions, models of women in nonconsensual bondage; in anime shops, manga depicting graphic rape or violence weren't even plastic-wrapped. Living in that culture, I reached a point where I was acutely aware that I was a vulnerable female... and at the same time, I was less fazed by these depictions of violence, rape, and death. This isn't atypical, according to Center for Media Literacy; Adults and children who often view depictions of violence often have higher anxiety rates. Another paper by RAND says "Witnessing repeated violent acts can lead to desensitization and a lack of empathy for human suffering." Various other articles have supported this as well.

 

I think that's a great distinction that I missed in my example--there's a big difference between violence for a result and violence as a result. If, perhaps, Bob and Susie are acting out a fictionalized exploration of the escalation of domestic violence over time, that would be interesting, although potentially painful to watch. But if the punch is only to give Susie some backstory, I'm less inclined to pay attention to it--it's "just another" angsty backstory.

 

So, for my own personal clarification's sake -- are you stating that all fiction/artwork that deals with torture and premeditated murder/rape/whatever is indicative of a desire on the part of the artist to commit these acts?

If that's so -- and that is personally how I am interpreting this remark, given the manner in which you worded it -- then that's so far off-base it's not even funny. That's like saying every author who ever wrote a crime novel involving such things is really expressing their inner desire to commit the acts themselves, and I don't think that could be further from the truth.

With regards to the trend -- I agree with spamsama in that part of the appeal is that it's a controlled environment. It's sort of like graphic fiction utilizing resin forms rather than pen and paper. I personally don't like looking at it/reading it, but that's my weak stomach and total lack of constitution where these things are considered acting up.