Violence and depictions of abuse in the doll world?

I'm rather happy this has only come up twice and very mildly at that, but I personally am always a little offended when something "non-con" comes up, especially around here, and there are quite a few people who say "oh, it's those durned yaoi fangirls, they're already sick perverts, they're mucking it up for everyone". Depictions of rape as romantic exist in every medium, ever. (To name a popular shoujo title, Hot Gimmick portrays a girl who is repeatedly abused over and over again and it seems to only make the vapid girl fall more and more in love with her antagonist.)

I'm also one of those people who can quite easily separate the fictional from the non-fictional, and have trouble understanding people who can't do the same. Perhaps it's from the lack of "go to bed, this isn't for you" when I was growing up, perhaps it's a characteristic of my generation and the generation directly proceeding mine (it seems to be). I get a thrill out of these sorts of things in fiction because I would never, ever, ever want to be anywhere near them in real life.

Personal case in point: I play violent video games with gorey themes, watch all those awful crime shows, and being around real wounds makes me woozy and hearing the newscaster tell me that some poor human being was murdered makes me a little sad. Even thinking such things about a real human being is verbotten to me by my nature and religion. But I love love love fictional representations of it.

I understand what you mean, but just because you don't do something professionally doesn't mean you aren't sincere. "Fun" is often the motivation for said professionals.

As for desensitization, I personally have gotten LESS desensitized to violence as I've grown older... So I don't know if I'm just a weirdo, or if all the research really just doesn't necessarily hold any water. Right after Columbine, kids who dressed in black or played video games were hauled into counseling because of similar arguments. This is something that's been raging in the video game industry for quite some time...

 

I think that's probably subject to each individual who is reading the photostory, to be honest.

Speaking for myself only, that would not desensitive rape for me. It would be a different presentation, but I am not so naive as to think that rape is not a serious issue because of someone's fictional representation.

 

No more than any trashy romance novel, and those things have been around for forever.

 

I never said professionally ^^;; I was referring to creative works that are a direct reflection of what the creator has seen/likes (dolls that are very similar to favorite fictional characters, for example) as being examples of audience perception of entertainment.

 

NP! I think I like my dolls to be the fantasical creatures because they are SO far from my normal life. Some feelings do come though through when I post photostories. But abusing themselves? No.

 

Sadly, I believe rape and gore is part of pop culture now. >.>
There's really no way of avoiding it, unless you never watch TV, never read books, never go on the internet, and don't talk to anyone...
And if your doll lives in this time period, he/she may 'come across' it in their 'lives'.

 

Personally, for me Rape is Rape even in fiction. After reading a rape scene I offen feel a bit angry and the same goes to my reactions to movies. As much as I may see the images I can't really feel desenitized by them.

 

OK. This got long. I apologize.

I don't happen to think there's any universal formula for "Person writes about/reads about topic [foo] and therefore automatically has a certain value set". Playing Dungeons & Dragons doesn't automatically mean you are going to put on funny clothes and kill your parents, drawing pentagrams and goat heads doesn't mean you are going to run and kill your neighbor's cat, and writing a filthy fanfic doesn't necessarily mean you're hot to emulate it. That guy who shot up Virginia Tech last week - he wrote violent stuff. Disturbed stuff. Does that mean every kid who pens a violent fantasy needs his head examined? I say no. Way way big neon lights on a hilltop NO.

Now if it's a recurring theme, and specific targets are mentioned? Yeah, maybe someone should sit down and have a conversation with that person - see what's going on upstairs. (One of my clients at Catalyst had a repeating image for several years that started to upset me, and I did talk to him. I am upset less by the imagery now because I understand his motivations and feelings, and he moved away from the subject matter. Simple as that. I didn't jump to conclusions, although I could have, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt as an intelligent adult)

Dead babies, wounded women and girls, and characters with scars/missing limbs are a popular subject in darker art (whether it's a fine artist like HR Giger or manga like "Berserk")... and they're all there for different reasons pertaining to the artist. I sincerely doubt Kentaro Miura wants to rape his exgirlfriend on a pile of corpses, but I'm not sure I'd be alone in a room with Giger, mostly because I think he'd be a big bore. Dolls are a logical progression; there have been mutilated baby dolls and Barbies in art for a long, long time. BJDs, unsurprisingly, get it too. There was, I brought this up previously, a whole magazine at the Japanese supermarket not too long ago full of beautifully photographed, elaborately set-up BJD rape scenes and death scenes. The whole thing unsettled me because it was so well-done, so much care had been put into so much horror and brutality, and I kinda wondered about "Why would someone do this?" I'm sure the reasons varied for every artist involved, though, and I wouldn't pigeonhole them all as "disturbed" for sure.

I use a lot of violence and rape in my stories and art, because I'm fixated on war and the horror that mankind creates in the real world. I'm not glorifying it, I'm demonstrating. Never forget. Never turn your back. CARE. War is terrible (potentially necessary to human evolution, though... there's a lot to that that cannot be simplified down to "Don't hit! Hitting hurts and it's mean!"), prison is horrible and you don't want to go there, and freedom is not free; someone somewhere paid for every luxury you have with some kind of suffering. Civilization is built on other men's backs.

I might tell the stories with elves or angels (mostly to get rid of earthly associations with race and/or nationality that I've found destroy the focus by turning X common enemy of Y people into VillainsTM), but I'm making one or more of the above mentioned points more often than not. I find it interesting that very little has been said about horrible things being used to make a point. I happen to hate zombie and slasher movies; when I want to be scared, I watch documentaries, or films inspired by real events ("Elephant" is a great example.) It's not out of sick fascination with those horrible things - it's out of a desire to really understand my society, the world I live in, and if I can, to help the people living in it.

What about characters with drug problems? Why are they left unscathed and unexamined in all this? (Or were people counting that under the overused, highly misunderstood heading of "self-mutilation"?)

As far as people "needing therapy" - depends on how much validity you lend to current psychotherapeutic technique. I happen to think a lot of contemporary therapy is hogwash, but I might as well be saying I don't believe in God for all the productive discussion stating that belief will invoke.

Everyone does stuff for different reasons, is the short conclusion. If you ask questions instead of just assuming the worst or hiding away because the images upset you, you likely not only feel better, you might make a friend.

 

Thank you for the clarification, though I respectfully disagree. I've written torture scenes before; some vicious ones, in all honesty. There's nothing personal about it, no deep desire to inflict such things on myself or my fellow man. I consider it an exploration into the human condition, and the various psychological ramifications from such things. I am of the opinion that out of the myriad people who explore such themes in their artistry there are likely only a very few whose explorations stem from deep-seated violent tendencies. However, those few are the ones whose cases are broadcast to the world at large.

QFE. You worded it very nicely.

 

One of my boys is a former protistute that started when he was underage and yes he was raped. Why? It explains who he is now. Now he's fairly quiet and withdrawn and the only way he really "grew up" was sexually. Mentally he's still very naive and innocent. When his rape was revealed in something I wrote from his POV he simply eluded to it, he didn't give graphic or gorey details. It's something he doesn't want to talk about now and it isn't often mentioned.

I don't think this really has any effect on me as a person or says anything about me as a person. I'm not glorifying violence, rape or torture, but it does happen and pushing it away in a deep dark hole isn't going to get rid of it.

On the same token I'm perfectly capable of portraying my character without going on about his past. It just means that if someone wants to know why (and I doubt that would happen) he's this way I couldn't tell them.

This is probably a fairly useless comment but I wanted to chuck my two cents in since the violence/rape rule does effect me in some tiny way.

 

Yes, everyone knows about rape. I think the point here is why so many people are choosing to mold a personality around this trauma. I'll state my view, and I don't mean this to offend anyone who has a character with rape in their backstory. When creating a backstory for a character, the person needs something to help it stand out. "Hi, I'm a high school girl who likes history, skiing, and going to the movies on Friday nights" isn't gonna cut it. Rape is just an easy cliche to latch on to as an excuse to give your character "interesting" emotional problems. A lot of the dolls with rather bad, violent backstories also seem to belong to teenagers. They might just be starting to explore their 'storytelling outlet', and over time will break away from these cliches.

I'm not saying that all teenagers have dolls with shallow backstories, or that all raped dolls are cliche. There are some out there with backgrounds and stories that I truely enjoy reading, but they are usually diamonds in the rough.

 

I agree with this, and an earlier comment that suggested that it's easier to include something dramatic like this to broadly (and easily) explain a set of behaviours, or a personality, rather than tease it out subtly, as a culmination of a lifetime of events and experiences. Of course, this is just my opinion, and I don't mean to imply it's the case for everyone, but I definitely think rape, and other types of crimes, are a very easy way of gaining sympathy for a character, as well as at the same time showing just how resiliant they can be.

 

What I was specifically referring to.

I think it's also a symptom of this grand, teenaged preoccupation with "angst". I'm using that word here to mean that tawdry, overblown emotional baggage that is so all-pervasive in fanfics, "YA" novels, so on and so forth. ("Teenaged" is also a loose term in my usage, meaning more of the selfish love of "drama" and flightyness associated with the general populus in that age bracket--even a 42 year old can be "teenaged"--rather than "human beings between the ages of 13-19".) It seems like you aren't the Admirable Hero unless you've had Lots of Bad Stuff happen to you these days--there's no room for what I like to refer to as the quiet tragedies of everyday life. It isn't enough that Person X and Person Y are in a relationship where no one really loves each other any more, but they don't know what else to do other than keep going like they always have, Person X has to have a heroin addiction to escape their sorrow and Person Y has to be having a tawdry affair with Person Z who lives across the street while they both cut their wrists together. It's a little sad, but more sad-pathetic than sad-tragic, for me.

Not to say these things can't carry legit emotional impact, but more often than not, they're not handled well enough to actually convey anything other than overblown angst. I once read a 100+ "chapter" original story published on the 'net because I was bored where nothing good could happen to anyone, ever, for more than three paragraphs. It was silly. I've also read Death of a Salesman. Difference much?

Though I'll admit I have a soft spot for "dirty angels" myself. (Hooker with a heart of gold, anyone?)

 

alright, I'm going to make another point, and many people are going to think I'm very sick for it.
but maybe doing violent graphic photostories are a way of getting certain ideas or fantasies out of their heads and into a place that it can't hurt anyone. if you start wondering or imagining mutalating or raping someone, putting it down on paper, or in a photostory is pretty effective for at least getting it out of your head. at least for me. you imagine the pain and put yourself thru it by the process of creating the story... it's out and you don't have to think about it. and it's done in such a way that no real people are hurt by your actions, and honestly, no one has to look at it if they don't want to.
however... it's prolly not something to be posted in a forum. if it works as an statement, artistic or otherwise, at least it has a purpose. if it's for attention whoring or to back up "angst" and drama... you might want to try something else.

zombie dolls are love though and shouldn't be banned if it's just paint and clay. no real entrails or blood.

and if you guys want scientific back up, you'll have to give me a couple days to do all the research. I've taken quiet a bit of psych, so I sorta know what I'm doing.

I just want to point out that stories and representations of rape are nothing modern. many greek and roman comedies make light of rape and abuse, and even shakespear's taming of the shrew depict forcing a woman to bend to a man's will thru abusive practices, yet is considered one of the best comedies from shakespear. shoot.. .in hamlet everyone dies horribly at the end. was it for entertainment, a statement, or just something everyday?

 

I'm so out of the loop, I never even noticed. :S

 

this is intersting and i might edit after i've read all the posts tomorrow, i show be revising.

I don't kno. Rape is a scary topic i don't completely understand it. Seeing as i have one doll and he is at a legal age for sex but is asexual i don't have any trauma pasts in stall for him.

Paper or not rape is rape. I have a long running story and there was rape in there. In truth it is cliqued i used it a few times to make certain characters have a role. Usually influenced by what i've been watching like a drama and a character was raped before.

In my current story, a girl was raped cos well i needed to traumatize a boy's life and what is more memoriable abot rejecting a girl and what her get gang raped unable to help and then watch her commit suicide? the other is a boy who was raped by a mentally ill family member... he was sweet but then when it came to "lying and sleeping with the top model of a company/owner of company" is not a sane thing and need a back up to it. So abusive member... classic yaoi story filling.

But this story i am writing is about traumatised life a person who has changed due to his position in life. Too dark in my opinion. But i can't agree i have these fantazies when i write. I have the idea to suit the character's role. A 19 year old boy would not sleep with a 23 year old for the sake of uncovering scoop on him. There has to be a reason, being blackmail and abused seemed to have a good deal if said black-mailer is promising to let him go once he gets the scoop.

Those are some examples of why i would include rape and violence in. But really fantasies of ppl being raped is too far. Even in stories for fantasy. The only time I personally include is when it is a story based on real life, to reflect this dark world we're in.

 

I've oftentimes wondered...if the modern "civilized" culture's fascination with amazingly intense portrayals of violence and mayhem stem from the fact that we are ESSENTIALLY a mayhem-free century. When the current levels of true, realistic violence is held up to violence in past times - or even early 20th Century wartimes - we're measuring very, very, very "abuse free." And perhaps...the reptialian or primordial brain NEEDS to be fed a certain amount of violence because of its origins...and if we're not getting it out in the street, we're going to create it and feed it to our primitive brains.

Doesn't say a lot for the idea of Utopian society. But as much as we are heartsickened by human violence today, we aren't battered with it in the Western World to the extent that it was once a daily immersion.

And the more...cultured and civilized a society....the deeper and darker a fictionalized brutality can become...