What would you do if...you bought a doll that had been stolen?

Possession of stolen property: nope! Don't need that on my record. I MIGHT ask for help with shipping fees for out-of-country returns if we're dealing with, say, a friggin' Soom Giant, but A) how would you steal one of those anyway? and B) You'd better believe that doll is going home. Heck, I'd send after a spa treatment and new pants if the original owner OK'd as much. I'd be crushed all over the place about loosing the doll, probably sniffling as I buffed it one last time. And the financial blow? Well, that WOULD blow.

But, you know what? It would make a great story.

And I'd get to expose the person I bought said doll from. I admit I ENJOY outing persons of questionable artistic and business ethics, perhaps to the point of diminishing my own. But, you can't put a price on justice when there is so little in this world. We all have to enjoy something, sometime.

After that, I may very well stop being upset about the loss on my end. With all the interest this generated, I might not even have a bad time finding a replacement. The person who was burgled and myself could put everything to bed with a photoshoot of our twins and life would go on.

 

Well... I'm obviously not your folks, but I have to say: I would actually be really proud that I raised someone right enough that they would do the very mature, very right, and very hard thing, whether it was a big hassle or not. I know that's maybe not the comfort it could be, but it's still the truth.

 

I've gotta point to my earlier post again as I think a good many people skipped over it.

You do not have to be out the purchase price of the doll. It is a lengthy and intense process but you can take the seller to small claims court for any amount not exceeding 5000$ (could be greater depending on the state), the actual claim would be fraud. They do not have to have been convicted of a crime, nor do you need an attorney. You will however need all the evidence you can muster so contact the owner but, and this is a big BUT...

DO NOT just mail the doll back to the owner. Take it to the police. They'll find out if the owner is telling the truth, they'll send the doll to the owner if they're found to be telling the truth, and will assist you in getting the info you need to take the seller to court. If you just mail the doll to the owner you run the possibility that you could have been scammed by them. Let's face it, people lie, and they could just be taking you for a doll in cahoots with the seller or for property that they had previously owned and sold (or was perhaps repossessed and resold by a credit agency). You also possibly lose evidence the police could have assisted in gathering for court, making you less likely to win your case.

 

I wondered if I should have mentioned this in my previous post, but I was a little worried I'd have taken things too far. But that's the first thing when I heard people saying that it's the victim's fault their doll got stolen.

To be completely honest, I think this IS a case of moral compasses gone awry. If it was a sense of childishness, or even ignorance of that fact, the overwhelming response to "Keeping stolen goods is illegal", or anything along those lines would make people say "I didn't know that. In that case..." I would like to think people who just don't know would change their tune, and maybe apologize.

Instead, everyone who has said that they'd keep the doll or "negotiate" with the original owner is defending their responses, despite the word "illegal" being tossed around in almost every post. And while I didn't put your comment about being poor, I completely agree. The excuses ARE all the same, and NONE of them would work if any of them had to appear in court.

Plus, as I said, the staggering amount of legal fees would probably make any "poor" person wish they had worked to get the doll back as fast as possible.

I'm pretty dependent on my parents, and I'm a college kid; and that's exactly what my parents would probably do with me. This is why I said in my earliest post that I'd need to take a day, then tell my parents. That day is wondering how I'm going to break it to them, lol! It's especially bad because there are ways to avoid being scammed (which is why I do avoid the marketplace). Maybe I'm losing out, but better safe than sorry, I guess. I know, I know - companies can screw with you, too, but I don't go with places that have a reputation for anything like that.

The "proud parent" thing would most likely come after the ear-full of how this hobby was stupid, and doing this is a waste of money... But I'd still have to tell them because I don't want to handle this all by myself. I just can't keep the doll and forget any of it ever happened; that's impossible. It would be immense pressure, for certain, but I've been in the face of immense pressure and knew that there are some things you can't ignore, or forget because it isn't important. There is also a time to realize that you're in over your head, and need other people to help you. I avoid the MP because I don't want to put myself in a situation where my parents can have yet another example of why this hobby is stupid or pointless. Even so, if ever I got scammed, I know my parents would do everything in their power to help me resolve this issue. Even after the ear-full, they'd still know that their daughter needs help, and they'd really be persistent in getting everything sorted out.

Really, the most I'd do for someone who did help me out, and get my doll back to me through the authorities, is maybe a thank-you card. Mainly, it would be to thank them profusely, but if they really did their best to help me out - constant back-and-forth correspondence, maybe some encouragement - I'd give them a card. I'd like to think that's the furthest someone would go for me if the tables were turned. Looking at my very first post in this thread, I think a card would be the most I'd be comfortable taking. I'd really appreciate the fact that I've been acknowledged - even in this little way - for helping someone out like this. I don't think I'd be comfortable with money if it was offered to me, because it's not that person's fault I was sold stolen property; plus, (and I'll be up-front) I wouldn't offer the other person money. I just don't see why I should give them compensation.

Personally, I don't know if I'd feel "comfortable" outing people who sold me a stolen doll; most likely because I don't know that they knew, either. You really don't know how many hands this doll has passed from. The previous owner might also think that they are legitimately selling their doll to someone else. I wouldn't want to out someone until I knew that they either a) knew it was stolen at the time of the sale, or b) stole the doll. I wouldn't want to risk ruining a persons reputation if they were trying to do what they felt was an honest transaction until everything was found out.

 

Thanks!

Coincidentally, my son's fifth grade class staged a mock trial today, and put Goldilocks on trial for her role in the Three Bears Affair. Please keep in mind that I live in one of the most liberal cities in the US where residents are often accused of being granola-eating, tree-hugging, soft on crime relativists. My son's class unanimously found Goldilocks guilty of trespass, criminal mischief (for breaking the chair) and theft (the porridge). Then they looked up the statutes for our state (for an adult) and gave her the maximum-- 7 years. So eleven years olds--kids too young to join this forum-- can definitely tell right from wrong.

I think you are right about this. I'm having a hard time believing a person doesn't know this is wrong after years of schooling, reading and occasionally watching the news.

I'm a parent, The AnniBanana, and I know I'd be proud of you, as well. If such a thing happened to my son, I'd do everything in my power to make it up to him---- after he acted on his own to do the right thing. And if I was the person whose doll was stolen, I'd give the biggest reward I could afford, because I can imagine how difficult it would be to give up a doll you've come to love.

 

If I had purchased a doll I later found out to be stolen, I'd immediately contact whatever site I bought it through to get them started on the investigation. I'd then call the police of my state, the state of the original owner, and of the seller. Finally, once that was squared away, I would let the owner know the doll was safe with me until the police took it for evidence. I'd give them numbers to contact, even send pictures to show the doll was safe and they could relax, that the doll would get back to them once the police were done with it. I'd be bitter that I would be out of money, but I would be happy to know I got somebody's joy back to them.

 

Victim blaming's a pretty standard thing. I've had bikes stolen before, and regardless of the amount of locks I had on the bike and where I put it (right by my apartment door!), someone always said, "Oh, well, you should have done X." It's annoying -_-;.

And even with the alternate scenario proposed sometime earlier in the thread, where it's been so long that the original owner doesn't particularly want the doll back, I still don't think I could keep the doll knowing it had been involved in a crime.

I've never had stolen property returned to me, but with something that has the emotional context of a BJD, I think I would try to compensate the one who returned the doll to me in some fashion or another, depending on what I was able to do at that time.

 

I just did some quick research. This poster is in Germany. In Germany, if you bought stolen goods and did not know they were stolen at the time you bought them, and you later discovered they were stolen YOU are not charged with a crime, and THE ORIGINAL OWNER HAS NO LEGAL RIGHTS TO GET THEM BACK.

That is German law. This is what this poster has been raised with. So...legally she has a point. Ethically....well I just won't go there.

Now I am going to talk only about US, Canadian, UH, Australia and New Zealand law.

In the US, Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand, keeping stolen goods IS A CRIME. And if the original owner ever found out you still had the disputed doll, YOU COULD GO TO JAIL. Practically speaking, this is what that means. You would have a criminal record (which would make it difficult to get a job, get a credit card, rent an apartment, get a loan), you would be out the doll, AND you would be out 10 times the amount of the doll in fines, court costs, and lawyer fees. HELLO? Is a doll worth that? Any doll?

The reason to turn the whole matter over to the police is simple: the bad things that can happen if you try to deal with the original owner OR the seller yourself.

Let's take the seller. If you go after the seller yourself instead of going to the police, you are potentially identifying yourself as a problem to someone who breaks the law. This person is a criminal. You do not know WHAT KIND of criminal. It might just be some petty thief who grabbed a doll at a convention and is making a quick buck on ebay. It MIGHT be a hardcore drug addict who cleaned out an entire house and would have absolutely no problem with going to YOUR house if you hassle him (he shipped you the doll, remember? he knows where you live). Maybe he'll steal all your stuff. Maybe he'll wait till you come home and beat you up. Maybe he'll kill you. You don't know. You have no way of knowing. Do you really want to find out the hard way?

Now let's take the original owner, and again, to keep things simple let's stipulate that this IS a victim and not a scammer. If you go straight to the original owner instead of the police, the original owner CAN LEGALLY charge you with receiving stolen goods, at which point YOU will have to go through all kinds of legal trouble to prove you did not do so knowingly. Do you really WANT to go through the hassle of sitting in a deposition chamber for hours while you answer questions like "The opening bid was 99 cents. Didn't that make you suspicious? Why not? Have you ever bought dolls legally that had opening bids that low?" And that is the least of the possible problems. It can get much nastier, and much, much more expensive, especially if the original owner filed a theft claim with her insurance company and they paid it. Insurance companies keep lawyers around on the payroll for times like this.

This is why YOU GO TO THE POLICE. You make it THEIR business to contact the owner. The doll will be in THEIR hands and you are no longer liable for anything except, perhaps, to testify against the thief if it comes to that. By all means, contact the original owner after that and tell her where her doll is if you feel the police might not have, but do NOT do so before you have turned the doll over to the police.

 

Interesting that you mention this. I just read up (very briefly) on how these things go in my country and you can be accused of handling and buying stolen goods knowingly (called “heling” in Dutch) if you at the time of the sale could have suspected the goods were stolen due to for example a low price on eBay.
I don’t want to scare off people from contacting the police should they ever find out they were sold a stolen doll, but caution them to shop wisely online and offline.

 

The laws of every country with regard to possessing stolen goods are different.

In the US, it is presumed that if you turn over stolen goods to the police, you are not involved in the theft, and turning them over to the police absolves you of the crime of possessing stolen goods.

 

Interesting thread... morally, I would feel obligated to contact the seller and to go to the authorities to sort everything out legally. What other choice is there, really? I would be very, very upset about it though, even if I felt all warm and fuzzy.

I don't think this situation is very likely to happen, though, for a few reasons. I just don't see many situations where a buyer would both be aware that Doll X had been stolen and a victim would be able to prove that Doll X had originally been hers. How identifiable are these dolls, really, and how likely is this to happen? Let's imagine you were an insider in the hobby. You're going to steal a doll to resell. What is the very first thing you're going to do? Wipe the faceup and remove any identifying marks. You'd be more aware of the value of dolls from different companies and you'd avoid nicking something that had been altered because it would be both identifiable and less valuable. Aside from modifications, most owners aren't making permanent marks on their dolls because we're all fairly cognizant of resale value.... so the likelihood of accidentally buying a doll that is marked permanently in an identifiable way is slim to none.

If you were an outsider, you'd probably sell the doll through eBay or a non-specialized market without knowing what it was... and while it would be intact, it would probably be rather easy to spot the auction as being a little fishy... and an educated buyer would probably stay the heck away from it. A new owner would be the most likely buyer, and their chance of finding a lost/stolen doll notice is slim to none (and in addition, they'd likely lack the experience to identify the stolen doll as their own).

The most likely thing I could see happening in terms of doll theft that I could see would be either a doll being sold blank or re-faceupped and unidentifiable... or it would be some fullset with a default that a dozen other dolls had, making it impossible to definitively say "that is the one." To be honest, I've never heard a story of this happening.

Tangentally...

What would the legal ramifications of modifying the stolen goods be, I wonder?

 

You wouldn't happen to have stumbled across laws regarding international theft situations while researching this, would you? For example, what if the original owner was in the USA, but the person who bought the stolen doll was in Germany? Or vice-versa? Does one set of laws trump the other set (and if so which one) or does a completely separate set of laws come into play?

Also, regarding this, I just want to point out that it's not at all impossible for a totally reputable seller with totally reputable items to start the bidding at 99 cents or lower. It's actually quite common in the kimono community for very reputable sellers with high-quality items to start bidding very low, and for the winning bid to be hundreds of dollars. I don't know if that happens with BJDs at all, but I guess that points to the importance of knowing the market. A kimono with an opening bid of 99 cents wouldn't make me bat an eye anymore, unless other factors in the auction (like a seller who clearly didn't know what they had) made me suspicious. But maybe that kind of low opening bid doesn't happen for second-hand BJDs, and if that was the case it would make me suspicious.

 

Actually please note, there is no such thing as 'UK law' the laws of Scotland, England & Wales and Northern Ireland are not identical and interchangeable. Also laws are different for every single country, so what is legal or illegal will vary in each country.

As for as England & Wale' law stands, if a person who has purchased a stolen item and at the time was not aware or had the suspicion that it was stolen then they are not 'handling stolen goods' by buying it. If they were aware or had suspicion that it was stolen or finds out later and proceed to sell it, then they will be handling stolen goods. It is a crime but whether or not you go to prison will be dependent on the ruling of the Judge. There is maximum punishment and fines but no two cases will be the same.

Under Common law, the original owner is the legal owner and that right can only be transferred by them. But, under Equitable law, the person who purchased the item (unaware , no suspicion and did not act dishonestly) is known as a bona fide puchaser for value. As equity is to protect the moral right, the person who bought the stolen item will have the Equitable title over the item. IF you are to pursue in a claim between common law and equitable law, equity will usually prevail but you must only rely on equity with 'Clean Hands'. So the new owner' right is equal as the original owner.

The original owner does not have a full proof claim on the property unless they are able to create a 'trust' over the item or have the equitable remedy of 'tracing' (a right against the third party who paid for the item)

Tracing remedy and Equitable rights are a complex area, but in short, the original owner does not have a 100% guarantee claim against the purchaser. Both parties do have a valid claim against the person who stole/sold the doll.

That's the legal position in England, it will not be the same for other countries. Morally speaking, I feel it would be right to return the doll to the original owner but at the same time contact the authorities and get a claim set out against the seller. Regardless how much I paid, how much I like the doll, it is still stolen property and should be returned to its original owner. I would pursue my claim against the thief, they're the ones who scam me of my money, they're the ones to pay me back. Not the original owner. But I wouldn't do anything privately, it would be best to go to the police about the stolen doll and to seek legal advice on the claim against the thief.

And @shiori_hime: which law to apply will depend on where you're bringing the claim. If the original owner is in the US and the purchaser is in Germany, to be enforceable in Germany they would need a ruling in Germany hence would be under German jurisdiction and German law. A US ruling will not be enforceable in Germany unless there is a further ruling in Germany.

 

I'd without a doubt return the doll to it's owner, and hand over the thief's behind to the police in a heartbeat. I believe in karma, the golden rule and all that good stuff... Every action gets a reaction, and I would hope someone would do the same for me heaven forbid I found myself in such a position.

However, placing myself in the victim's shoes I really agree with timid. If someone PM'ed me to return my doll, I'd reward them for coming forward. I was a victim of the thief and now they are too. I wouldn't want someone to be out of their money because they essentially lost the very same doll I did. I'd try to help recover some/most of the funds anyway I could, and say thank you for having the honesty to return the doll vs. staying quiet and keeping it.

 

This is true. However, I could see a scenario in which someone who may have dolls repossessed or considered "abandoned" in a location, and then post a thread on a forum like this claiming the doll in questions was "stolen." Now, that isn't to say that I in any way believe that any of the current reports of stolen dolls is a similar situation to this hypothetical one, but it could happen. In a case like this, though the doll is reported as stolen online, it may not have actually been stolen, but taken legally. It's only because of a possible situation like this that I would remotely think of hanging onto a doll reported as stolen, until I can verify ( probably with the police) if the doll in question was actually stolen or not.

I doubt anyone on this forum would make such a statement about a doll that wasn't stolen, but then again it's known that this forum probably has its share of unsavory sorts, as would any forum on the internet. I just felt this particular type of case was worth mention here atleast, because although most of us would want to do our best to help the "victim" of theft, there are also rare cases in which the victim is also a scammer.

 

I think in a case like this the police could verify the chain of possession, and would likely return the doll to the buyer once it was determined that the doll was legally resold. It may suck for the original owner, but in this case it really isn't an item that was resold illegally.

 

I would think that it depends on what was modified. If you decided to do something super permanent, like a deep engraving of some sort (and documented it with a photo), you could possibly prove it was your doll if the person either tried to fill the holes, or tried to totally sand it out, and there's a little weird indent in its place.

Any other modifications would depend on when you found out the doll was stolen. If you're in the process of modding your new doll, and find out that it was stolen, I'm not sure what one should do. I don't know how how in depth the mod is - you could be sanding down a nose or opening eyes... or you could be sanding the breasts off. What to do? I guess you'd need to continue the mods because it would look bad if you didn't, and you don't know if the original owner can do the kind of work you can to either rectify or complete it.

If it was an extensive mod - heck, any mod - if the police verify that the person in question is the original owner, the only thing I could see myself doing is a) telling that person about my modifications, and b) asking if they were ok with that, and send photos to show it. If they weren't, I'd do c) if it was possible, I'd have to fork over more money to buy replacement parts, because the mods I did, not the thief. Sure, I could go to small claims and try to sue for the replacement parts, but that might not always work out if the parts aren't available anymore.

Legally, unless they can prove that you modded it to be unrecognizable on purpose (like sanding out carved initials or a tell-tale owner marking) then I don't know if they could get you. I mean, at the time, you thought it was your own property, so you went ahead and modded it. At the same time, you could have also modded out the initials because that wasn't the seller's doll anymore, so maybe you wanted to put in your own mark? It's sticky, that's for sure.

But weren't there a lot of Volks dolls stolen from a Dolpha in 2007? Weren't some found? I don't remember.

 

As someone who has had to make a deposition before the hostile lawyers of our opponent, I can tell you that lawyers will drag up anything that they think might make you slip up. In this case, even though you would be the innocent party, all they care about is that they have you in their hands and not the alleged thief, and if they can make you out to be the thief, they can get you prosecuted and get money out of you. So they will try to do just that.

 

Personally, I would do as others have said, PM the original owner and get proof etc then I would hand it over to the police and do everything I can to get the doll back to the original owner. I would also assist the police in their investigations and hand over all my info of the seller. I would want the thief caught so they can't do this to anyone else.
As for me being out of money? Well that's a learning curve for me and as someone said at the beginning of this thread, put it down to experience learned.
Yes it would be upsetting and I would get angry, but not towards the original owner. They never asked for someone to steal their doll.

 

As another one of those in the "poor college student" set, I'd like to start by saying that the amount of money you possess doesn't affect the morality of your actions. Granted, it can make a decision more difficult emotionally, but if you do something you feel is wrong because you tell yourself you can't afford to do otherwise, you'd still have to live with that decision.

In the state of Oklahoma, the statute of limitations for both fraud and theft (felony as well as misdemeanor) is three years. If I suspected that my doll had been stolen within that time frame, I would contact the police first, and then tell the original owner that I had done so and give them the information about the case. After that, I would allow the police to do their jobs. Hopefully it would all end well, the thief would be caught, and we would get our money and doll back, respectively. If not, at least my conscience would be clear.

If I found a lost doll, I would report it appropriately and try to find the owner. If no one had come forward, and the police told me I could claim the property, I would do so and keep looking. During this time the doll would sit with mine on the shelf. I'd probably sew clothing for it, because I doubt I could resist dressing it up, but I wouldn't modify it in any way until I was sure I had done everything I could to get the doll home.

In the example of having had the doll for years, it being my favorite, and the original owner having replaced it.. I'm not sure what I'd do. I think I would try to contact the original owner, but it would take me a while to work up the courage to do so. If, even after all that time and replacing the stolen doll, she asked that I return it, I'd feel obligated to do so - even if it broke my heart to let my favorite go.

What is legal and what is moral or ethical don't always align exactly. Neither do different people's morals and ethics. Laws vary by country; morals and ethics vary by culture and religion. That doesn't always make someone who's response to a situation differs from yours a criminal or a bad person. If the situation was reversed, yes, I would hope that the person who unwittingly purchased or found my doll would do all she/he could to return it. But I wouldn't automatically expect her to feel obligated to do so.

TL;DR: I'd do all I could to make sure the doll got home through the proper channels. Possibly with a new wardrobe.