What would you do if...you bought a doll that had been stolen?

Oh whew... I'm sorry if I came off as harsh there, but I was a little jawdropped. Thank you for clearing that up!

 

Please don't apologize at all, it was my mistake. It wasn't harsh in the slightest, or at least I didn't read it as such and I agree with you entirely and know exactly what you mean by some of the jawdropping statements made. I really admire your ability to phrase things so clearly and your enthusiasm. Thank you very much for helping me to clear that up, I greatly appreciate it!

 

I agree that whenever possible expensive items like dolls should be insured, but my agreement with you ends there. Possessing insurance does not turn this situation into a zero sum game, where everyone is happy-- the new "owner," the original owner, etc. Every time I file with my insurance company my premium goes up. Why? Because I am a bigger risk to them and they have to charge more to continue making a profit. So filing with my insurance company is not going to magically make the problem go away. Yes, I can possibly buy a new doll with the proceeds (although typically the insurance company is going to reimburse the cost of buying the doll, not its appreciated value-- those policies cost far more than the typical homeowners policy), but I am out an additional sum each month in increased premiums because I made a claim.

And it's not just that. Every time a house is burglarized and that info is reported the information is put into a database. In my city and many others that information is compiled into a map that people use to assess property values. So when I file a claim I have to weigh it against the fact that it may make my neighborhood's property value go down. Sound silly? My garage was broken into a couple of years ago. Nothing was stolen, but the cops did pick up the guy who was still sleeping in my hubby's truck. Nonetheless, our premiums went up shortly after. So this year when my car was broken into, we didn't report it or file a claim.

Add to that the fact that many people who are just starting out cannot afford renter's insurance, and your argument begins to sound like victim blaming, again.

 

as sad as I would be, I would give the doll back to the owner after making absolute certain that it was theirs in the first place. I would want someone to do the same for me. but I would also do what I could to get authorities involved, because if they stole this person's doll, they could steal ANYONE elses.

 

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. An old English Bible verse. = "Golden Rule"

Plus, I would never be able to enjoy a doll in that circumstance. Would be a painful dilemma though.

 

Wow, so are you folks really saying, that if one of you bought a $4000 Berman (with good trust, after checking the seller's feedback and all), yet found out by chance one year later that said doll might have been stolen from someone else that you'd just return the doll to it's original owner for free? Somehow I cannot believe that.

I mean sure, if you find out early chances are you will be able to get your money back from Paypal or your CC company in case you paid using them and catch the thief as well so that everything could be settled to the satisfaction of everyone involved, but what if you only found out after a certain amount of time has passed? You could still go to the police, of course, only what if the thief/seller might have moved or disappeared in thin air in the meantime?

It's sure no great deal for most of us as long as the doll was only worth 100-200 $, it still sucks big time to be out of that money, yet it is a sum most of us will be able to get over. Now what if the doll costs thousands of dollars? I very well understand that the original owner was deprived of a large amount of money, but so were you, too, if you bought that doll in good trust and after making sure that the seller is honest as good as you could (after all we're still talking internet here, where you hardly ever get to know the persons you're dealing online with). The thief did not steal from one person only, he actually stole from two persons, the one he was getting the doll from and the other one he was selling it to. So what makes it more fair for the one to be out of money/doll than for the other?

 

It doesn't matter HOW the thief came by the doll - the thief is still a thief and by keeping the doll you are participating in an illegal act. The doll was obtained through illegal means making the money that you paid for it 'paying for stolen goods' (Which, in Australia at least is a $1000-$50000 dollar fine and a maximum 5 year prison sentence. Not sure about other countries, but from what is sounding on this forum, it's a bit not good.)

I can understand the different emotional drives behind different scenarios, but unfortunately at the end of the day, you are still in possession of stolen goods, knowingly remaining in possession of them and performing an illegal act.

also, people are free to give their honest opinion. People are also free to point out how that honest opinion is against the law. It's a debate.

Because. It. Is. Illegal. To. Keep. The. Doll.

Illegal. As in - against the law. Morals and the amount of money spent do not come into it. That doll goes straight to the police. There is no "But I'm out of money so I should keep it!" because the money is already gone. It is already money that has been spent, that you might get back if you hand the doll in. The more the doll is worth as well, the more trouble you will get into if you are caught knowingly holding onto it.

In this instance morality really has nothing to do with it. (Although it is the same moral driving people to say 'I'd give it back!' as those who made this law in the first place.) Keeping the doll is illegal on your part and you funded illegal activity when you bought it. Whether or not you knew at the time is irrelevant. What you do after learning of your actions will either make you a knowing conspiritor perpetrating an illegal act or a good person.

It's up to you which you want to be remembered by, but really. No amount of money is worth the lifestyle damage that a criminal conviction does.

 

The only thing I'd disagree with is that this is more of a moral issue then a legal one. Yes, there are legal implications, but I wonder how many people have things stolen from them on a daily basis, and how many of them actually get their stuff back, and the thief caught. Often times items get sold to pawn shops or unsuspecting buyers and the original owner never gets it back. I guess what I'm getting at is, what is the likely hood that the person who bought a stolen doll unknowingly, and then suspected later or found out for a fact that the doll they now had was stolen, actually being found out. One of the girls who I work with had her stuff stolen by an ex-roommate who wouldn't pay his rent. They knew it was him and yet could do nothing because the police said that because he'd lived in the apartment his fingerprints would be everywhere already. Volks had several dolls stolen, and we've yet to see hide nor hair of them since, but someone has to have those dolls somewhere. Sadly something being illegal certainly hasn't stopped people from pirating music, movies and whatever else they can online, or buying and selling bootlegged CD's and DVD's. So personally I think it comes down to whether someone has the moral fortitude to do the right thing. Not that I'm saying laws should be overlooked, or not a driving force for doing good.

 

Yeah, I'd have to return the doll. Law aside, I just couldn't legitimize a sale the thief had no right to make. Still, it doesn't seem right for the victims to just get swapped like that, between the original owner and the poor sap (theoretically myself in this case) who unknowingly bought the doll.

If I were the original owner who got the doll back, I'd compensate the person who bought it for half, or maybe even the full value if the doll was less expensive, since I'd know that we were essentially both robbed by the same person (but between us, we were only robbed for the value of one doll, half for each).

 

I would contact the owner of the doll right away. I know if my doll was stolen I would want someone to do that for me! I would also report the person who sold me the doll right away and hopefully get my money back!

If I was the one whose doll was stolen I would be really happy if someone returned my doll to me, and would probably reward them the best I could. Be it money or wig or clothing...whatever I could afford at the time. Someone spent good money on 'my doll' and was hoping for it to be a part of their family, but was kind enough to inform me of the circumstance :3

 

Cloudedmind - I agree that morality does have a lot to do with the choices that one makes, but my counter argument is that those who are most likely to overlook the law (in situations such as this) are those with the least moral fortitude.

I think though, in a situation such as the hypothetical scenario given by the OP the consequences of an action are black and white. The person who bought the doll knows who sold it to them, and can provide this information to the police, along with the doll. The police can investigate. The person in question knows that the doll is, in fact, stolen. There is a traceable lead back to the theif. With the Volks case, the dolls that have disappeared have probably disappeared into hands of people who don't know what it is that they own. In the hypothetical situation, this is not the case. It's very clear - the person has bought a doll, knows that it is stolen and knows who it has been stolen from.

 

This is all depending on the doll. Is it a default by company doll of a basic line, Like an luts EL or minifee Karsh, I can always get the exact same doll later on. I will be proudly angry about that I missed out on the money though.

But if the doll was a limited doll that I can't get hold of anymore, and that I payed a big amount of money on, I would not give it away freely. If I finally got my hands on a Sard full set, I would not want to give it up.

On either case, I would not just give the doll back. If the seller could blew me off, what says the "claimed" owner will not do it too? And really, if I were to buy a doll, it would probably not even be within my country or even in the EU. And don't really know how big priority stolen dolls have with the police when it comes to over seas transactions. People have been canned over ebay and such sites before, and basically it's a "sucks to be blue eyed and naive now don't it?" attitude about it. If it was a transaction within borders it would be one thing, but over seas? Dunno that.

And o another note. I would actually wonder how the hell the doll was lost in the first place. Stolen on convention? Lost at vacation? Well sucks to not have your stuff under watch don't it? I know people steal stuffs, that is why I, if I take my dolls anywhere, don't leave them out of site. If the doll was stolen at a house break in, well I have better understanding for that. But to loose it on a convention or at vacation. Keep better watch for your expensive stuff is my response.

If I got a doll stolen then. Well I would do what I could of course. And if I got stolen from, the person would be someone I knew, and I would literally walk to that persons house and punch her in the face and take my doll back. But I would not count on ever getting it back.

This is my opinion, I don't really know what I would do in this situation since I have not been in it, but this is what I think about it right now.

 

I have a feeling that someday these words are going to come back and bite you on the posterior. I wonder if you will then feel that blaming the victim is appropriate.

 

There is so much that is wrong with this, I don't even...

Just because the doll is lower on police priority than other crimes that cause more damage to more people doesn't make keeping the doll any less of a crime. In fact, there is an entire division in any significantly large enough precinct dedicated to cases of internet fraud/crime. If the original owner found out you had the doll and reported it to the police (which is highly likely in such a small community as the BJD hobby) you will be fined a significant amount of money, and have to hire expensive lawyers to stop you from going to jail. You will come away with a criminal record that means you will find it hard to get a job, a mortgage, a loan, a credit card...

Ask yourself - is any doll worth hundreds of thousands of dollars? because that is what you will lose in the long run if you keep the doll and you get caught. This is, of course, before the moral issue.

I love it how your judgement is "Too bad, so sad." I wonder if you'd have that high level of victim blaming if it was your doll that was stolen, and someone was saying the same thing to you.

 

Well, you can believe it. At the same time I was quite literally facing bankruptcy, and my family had just lost half its income, I stumbled across a tennis bracelet worth a small fortune laying on the ground in front of my feet with no possible owner in sight. I turned it in to the lost and found at the hotel where it had been dropped. (Despite a fear someone at the desk would keep it.) The owner contacted me later about it with thanks, as she was able to have it back.

Considering that bracelet could have paid off my parents' mortgage at the time and gotten my entire family out of a giant financial mess if I'd taken and pawned it or something? You'd think there would be a temptation there -- but there wasn't. Why? It's really, really simple. It wasn't mine.

 

The only word in here that has room for discussion for me is the word might. I would need to know very, very sure that the doll i have in hand is the doll that was stolen, but yes, if im sure its the one i would return it. Both my heart and wallet would bleed but i would. Actually, with the rarer/ more expensive dolls it would probably be easier to identify the stolen doll. If its a stolen puki with FL face-up, remove clothes and the doll is almost unidentifiable. In my country ive seen only one or two Bermanns and 1 UNOSS, so if one of those got stolen, then pops up on the Dutch marketplace, that would be 1+1=2

I would return it even if I was 100% sure no one would ever find out I had it. Why? Because I would know.

Edit: with "returning it" i do not mean i would only put the doll in a box and ship, but contact previous owner, contact police, give police all information etc, etc.

 

No, I'd hand it over to the police. I'm seriously not going to burn my hands on $4000 of stolen property and risk a fine, jail time and a criminal record that could haunt me for the rest of my life for a doll. If it turns out the doll is not stolen, I get the doll back. If I keep the doll while knowing it may possibly been stolen, then I do risk the fine, jail time and the criminal record, because if I find out that the doll I bought might be stolen, someone else may too and that person could report me to the police for handling stolen property. I'll have none of that, believe it or not.
No doll is worth that, so when there's a suspicion my doll is actually a stolen doll, I get to the bottom of it and contact the police. The higher the value of the doll, the larger the consequences if I sneakily try to keep it. You know what else? I may actually make someone (=the original owner) happy. There are things in this world that money can't buy. Honesty and integrity for example.

 

It's illegal in Hungary too , plus it's illegal to hide information about stolen goods or illegal actions so you have not only contact the owner and give the doll to police or legal owner , but share every information you have about the seller (the one selling you the stolen doll) with police.

 

It would not be enjoyable to give up the doll, but it's not yours to keep, because it was never the seller's to sell. Sometimes it's not about what you want to do, but what actually needs to be done. That can suck, but that's life. At least by attempting to find the doll's actual owner, you would be keeping your own integrity which is worth quite a bit, IMO.

The thing is, even if someone is careful, something bad can still happen. Plus, a moment's inattention on their part doesn't mean that they shouldn't get their doll back. You are just rationalizing unethical behavior by blaming the victim -- ultimately it doesn't matter how the doll was stolen, it was and by keeping the doll you are holding on to something that does not belong to you as well as helping the thief since you are not reporting the theft.

 

For me, I would probably get in contact with the old owner and try and talk things out. If they really wanted the doll back, I could see myself giving it to them. But depending on my attachment to the doll (Especially if I made it into my own with a custom faceup and clothing since I usually do...) I would first try and offer to buy the old owner a new doll or try and make up for the loss and help them out. I would even pay for the doll again if it was a choice and I was truly attached. c:

If it was mine that was stolen I would try to look at it from the same point of view. If the new owner put a lot of precious time, care and money into a doll stolen from me, I would gladly allow them to keep it. ♥

I actually had a similar situation happen with a tiger, and much like a BJD it was just as costly, limited edition/rare, I loved it, gave it a character/customization. Sadly, When I trusted it to a friend, it managed to get stolen and sold. When I found the new owner and saw what they did to my Tiger I couldn't even tell them it was originally mine. They gave it a major makeover and put sooo much work into my once loved toy, that I decided the only thing I could do is comment and secretly thank them for giving him a nice home. Although I found myself a little sad seeing him, I felt a lot happier hearing all the great things the new owner had done for him. ^^;