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What would you do if...you bought a doll that had been stolen?

Jun 7, 2011

    1. This is probably the most morally reprehensible thing I've ever read on this forum. Every single part of it makes me feel sick. It is morally and criminally wrong in every way.
       
    2. Why is it? Because my point of view is not like yours?
      Everyone say the same thing in this thread but i'm pretty sure if they felt in love or was looking for one like this for months those feelings will be different and hard to deal with. You can't just quote my post and bash on me, saying nothing to even explain yourself.
       
    3. Because not only are you saying that you would do something illegal (I checked-it's very illegal where you are) but that you do something that anyone with basic morality would consider deeply wrong. You say that you aren't endorsing the thief, but you ARE. You're not turning them over to the authorities, you're making sure that someone's very much loved and prized possession would never be returned to them, and that they never got a dime but that the thief was given a reward for their crime.

      Honestly, you should not have to have this explained to you. If your car was stolen, and someone bought it then found out it was yours, I doubt you would want them to say "Well f--- you, I bought it so too bad! I won't help you catch who did this, I won't even get my money back so I can get a car that I have a right to, you can go rot!"
       
    4. I will probably at 99% as I said not liking the doll at all. Of course thats mean I will pm the owner back and make an arrangement with her or him. I don't know why as an innocent buyer, I should "pay" because i've been sold a stolen doll. What I want to say is that I don't want to loose money out of this story.

      And yes I said I will involve authorities, in that case it will happen what will happen, if they wan't to give the doll back its up to them, but in that case I am the one being stolen because I will stay without my money and without the doll.
       
    5. Pretty much exactly this.


      It doesn't matter if you like the doll or not! I'm sure the first owner liked the doll too. If I liked a piece of artwork (which is what these dolls ARE) and found out someone stole it from a gallery, then i'd both report them and turn in the painting, or at least make sure that the person who did the work or rightfully owned the piece got it. There is NO EXCUSE for keeping a doll that had been purchased after being stolen.
      Suuchan is right. If it was YOUR doll or your car, or your art, or your pet or something, you shouldn't have to in essence buy back YOUR OWN PROPERTY.
       
    6. Gotta say I'm pretty disgusted with the folks around here who would try to sell the doll back to the person it was stolen from. Way to hurt an innocent party even more.

      I don't buy second-hand dolls so I don't think this will ever be a problem for me, but if I DID buy a doll and later discovered it was stolen, I like to think I would be ethical and moral enough to do the right thing and return it to its rightful owner without trying to get money out of that person. And if someone stole my doll and someone else bought it, I would hope the buyer would be ethical and moral enough to do the right thing and notify me, then return it without trying to extort money from me. And if the buyer didn't return the doll or tried to make me buy it back? I would consider that person just as much a thief as the original and would take legal action against the buyer too.
       
    7. Ok just nevermind my post then. My english is not very good and I can't explain with the perfect words but you guys obviously didn't understand my true point of view and my "question".
       
    8. I'm confused as to what there is for us to get. It seems to me that you think it is okay to victimize an innocent person a second time by either stealing their doll (which is what you would be doing if you kept the item after finding out it was a stolen doll) or trying to get them to pay for the doll again. I understand being upset that you are out money because you bought a stolen doll, but THE PERSON YOU TAKE THAT OUT ON IS NOT THE PERSON WHO HAD THE DOLL STOLEN IN THE FIRST PLACE, and the appropriate response is NOT becoming a thief yourself by keeping the doll or forcing the original owner to pay up.
       
    9. If you want to think of money alone, guess what costs a lot more than a doll in most parts of the world: legal fees.
       
    10. Erm....I hate to speak up...reaaaalllly hate to speak up....

      I don't agree with the morality of Queen0fSpades, decision making process. I would hate to have them be the person who bought one of my dolls illegally if they were ever stolen....however....this is a debate thread. And even if you do not agree with the opinion it is still a valid one and Queen0fSpades has every right to make it. Speaking from a moral standpoint attacking another person for their view is kind of ... counterproductive. Debating with them is one thing, but when it becomes clear the user is not going to be changing their opinion, and the debates becomes vicious it is probably time to stop. This user is obviously not going to agree with you and your points, however logical and correct they maybe, are not getting through, it seems better to just drop it and move on. Opinion was stated, disagreed with and away we go.

      On the flip side. Queen0fSpades your view is very controversial, you said so yourself that most people are saying the same thing in this thread. The reason for that is that this opinion was the most morally accepted and legal opinion in regards to the issue. I can understand that you disagree, but if you ask people why they mentioned your post but didn't say why they didn't like it, understand that you are opening yourself up to be critiqued and not in a way that you will like.

      In short... Opinion is opinion. Pray the person you think is in the wrong never has to be put in that position, be aware of their views and even add them to a list of people never to deal with if you want. Don't talk to users who don't agree with you or have differing ideas but please oh please don't let a hypothetical moral issue ruin your day.
       
    11. You are wrong, plain and simple. Even if you are not aware that the goods you are purchasing are stolen when they're purchased, and only find out later on, you are participating in an illegal act - the act of receiving illegal goods. You are obligated by law in Canada to return the goods to their rightful owner or face legal consiquences. It's the same with someone stealing from a store. If you are at the store with a friend, and the friend steals, you are still held responsible as well in the eyes of the law through association, even if you were not aware of the theft.
       
    12. Er... except that this is a debate thread? Opinions aren't just being collected here -- they're also challenged and defended. Everyone has a right to present their opinion, but that doesn't mean they are immune to it being challenged by others.
       
    13. Very true, I correct myself. This is not a simple opinion thread it is a debate thread. Either way, this user is obviously not going to change their opinion, and a good debate is one that understands the difference of opinion and can present arguments that are productive. I feel like thus far the user has consented that if it is against the law that they would be forced to give back the doll even if they didn't like it. This is the most productive this debate will likely get. Sorry bout that. Clarity...I guess I need some.
       
    14. Why do you call this opinion valid? A valid opinion requires critical thinking and analysis.

      Saying that it's okay to keep a doll if you really like it is an opinion based on emotion, nothing more: I want this doll. Therefore it is okay to keep it.

      If I said, "I think it's okay to steal from people if you don't like them," would you consider that a valid opinion? What analysis could I possibly have done to arrive at that opinion?

      Could you explain this statement? Because I do not understand what you mean, unless you are saying that all points of view are equally valid. But clearly that is not true. There's that critical analysis thing again.

      There's a really nice essay on the silliness of nonjudgmentalism and the idea of all ideas being equally valid here: link As the essay says, it's important not to confuse toleration and license. Allowing others to do as they will as long as no gets hurt is toleration. License is allowing others to do whatever they want, no matter who gets hurt. In other words ignoring the law when it serves you to do so.

      This may be a hypothetical issue for most, but keep in mind that numerous people on this site buy dolls second hand and quite a few people on this site have had dolls stolen. This isn't a parlor game, i.e., "If you were offered a million bucks to cheat on your husband would you do it?" We're talking a very real issue here. And several people have outed themselves as people who are quite willing to hang onto stolen goods if given the opportunity. I find that eye-opening.
       
    15. Speaking from a LEGAL standpoint, accepting/purchasing stolen goods is illegal. You keep stolen goods, the cops arrest you along with the person who sold the goods to you, and hey, you can be cell buddies! The law doesn't care that you don't want to give up stolen goods because you gave someone money to receive them. They were never and will never be your goods, they belong to the original owner, end of story.

      Edit: I'm thinking there are a few people who need a couple dictionary definitions to clear the air...

      il·le·gal

      [ih-lee-guh[​IMG]l]
      –adjective 1.forbidden by law or statute.
      2.contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.


      pris·on

      [priz-uh[​IMG]n]
      –noun 1.a building for the confinement of persons held while awaiting trial, persons sentenced after conviction, etc.
      2.state prison.
      3.any place of confinement or involuntary restraint.

      steal

         [steel] ,verb, stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun
      –verb (used with object) 1.to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
      2.to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
      3.to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend.

      Here's hoping these help. :daisy
       
    16. Very eye opening sakuraharu I agree that for many the issue hits close to home. I also believe that people are showing their true colors in ways that might make other users be cautious of them in the future. The problem as I see it, is that once one person has been pinned as the "bad guy" things get vicious. I truly was loath to step in, in particular in defense of someone who's opinion I find to be quite wrong. Your right that this is not a game and real feelings are involved, but since that is the case, all the more reason to try to remind ourselves that some people will just not change and the best way to keep it from getting to us...is to not let it get to us.

      I most certainly do not promote toleration to a point where the other person is taking advantage of the situation or breaking the law. Philosophies on the futility of true nonjudgmentalism aside, if a debate is called for and the persons in said debate are all given a voice, their arguments are valid in that they are the true beliefs of the person in question. If their argument is not well thought out and is flawed or lacks proper research it will inevitably be shot down. It does not mean that the view holds less merit as a person's opinion, only that to the debate at large it has less of a value for its ability to persuade. Emotional arguments can be convincing if they have the proper weight behind them, in this case, clearly, we do not agree with this user so the argument was not a good one.

      Hope this helped.
       

    17. I don't think Clorista is disagreeing with that. She herself said that she didn't agree with QueenOfSpades viewpoint, I think what she was trying to say was just that sometimes you have to agree to disagree when it's evident that neither party will budge on the issue, or else you keep going in circles. Of course people are entitled to do that all they want (debate back and forth unendingly), and I honestly have no qualms with it.

      As for the question. I'd get the police involved and let them do their job. I'd contact the seller as well and let them know that's what I was doing so they would know who to contact after I turned their goods over to the police.

      I have a question to add though, so you find out you have stolen goods, you contact the person who you believe the item was stolen from, and tell them you'll be getting the police involved, however they insist you send the doll back to them right away, and if you don't they'll "out" you as the person who stole their item on say DoA, what would you do then/how would you deal with the situation? *scurries off*
       
    18. Clouded, if I remember correctly, I think you actually have to surrender the property to the police (I could be wrong, it's been about a year or two since I've taken law courses).

      I'm just frustrated with the people who seem IMHO to be morally corrupt enough to think that keeping someone else's property is acceptable.
       
    19. Thanks Cloudedmind! That was precisely what I meant.

      This is a tricky one, as it might be the doll in question was NOT their doll, and was in fact simply a legitimate purchase that merely resembles the doll they had stolen. If it is still unclear if your doll is the stolen doll, no matter how much you might suspect, I would calmly inform the person in question that you will be turning the doll over to the authorities until such time as the issue is resolved. That way you are not responsible for any damages done the doll or out a doll if it turns out it was not the stolen property after all. If it is plain and clear that the doll was the stolen one, IE it matches photographs of various nicks or markings on the doll, I would honestly just send it back. If it is plain that they doll is the one in question there is no point in keeping it around and prolonging the rightful owners misery. Take lots of pictures of proof that you had the doll in your custody first so that you can have a case with the authorities for getting your cash back. And as always pay with a card and keep your information handy!

      Tallenvyaere I do not believe that keeping someone else's property is acceptable and I am very pleased that legally those of us who disagree with the idea that keeping someones doll because you like it is wrong have the law on our side. I can completely understand your frustration, I myself have had my credit card stolen and know how helpless and violated you can feel in that moment. I don't know how the law differs in Canada, but I believe in the U.S. surrendering to the police the stolen property might be required as well. I certainly hope so. I would feel much more comfortable giving the doll to the police to turn over, that way all the bases are covered.
       
    20. I don't think anyone is being vicious here. They are stating their opinion, which for many is that they find such a willingness to break the law to be morally reprehensible. It's not vicious to say so, even if the person's feelings are hurt by such a statement. Yes, some people may not change. But maybe a person with this opinion hasn't really thought things through, and is capable of growing once they hear others' reasoned opinions. And perhaps someone reading the exchanges here has put themselves in the true victim's shoes and realized that keeping a stolen doll is wrong, no matter how much that person might desire that doll.

      Previously you used the word "valid" to describe opinions, but from your last statement I think you agree that some opinions hold more weight than others. Appeals to emotion are not valid arguments. They are a form of fallacy. A debate thread is the place for valid, well-thought out opinions. It isn't a place for validation of all opinions, nor is a debate thread the place to worry about self-esteem.