What would you do if...you bought a doll that had been stolen?

Clorista, I do want to apologize, I did not intend to direct my frustration on you, as I will admit that you have the same viewpoint as I do (law is the law).

 

No offense taken Talenvyaere

Sakuraharu I should say I'm less concerned about hurt emotions then I am frustrated at a perfectly legitimate debate turning into basically railing on one person who clearly has no intention of ever admitting they were wrong. Notice that the user in question has gone quite. I am sure that the person is aware that we feel their arguments are morally reprehensible. Hopefully now the way will be clear for more constructive debate on this subject. I have been argued with for the last several posts and have stated my case without taking offense that people don't agree with me on the issue either. As I told the user in question you must be prepared to have your point argued. I guess a less nice way to say it would be if you cant stand the heat get out of the fire.

I take allot of comfort in how vehement so many people are on this issue. It shows that the hobby takes this sort of thing seriously. Still, opinions are going to differ, if they didn't how could we have a debate?

 

Yeah, I would still turn the doll over to the police. I guess I was wondering if it would make anyone more suspicious of the "victim". I know for me it would make me want to turn it over to the police even more so, as I'm sure they have better ways of finding out what belongs to whom.

I can be a bit cynical and I'd hate to find out later that the "victim" was part of the scam. Of course on the flip side I can understand how someone can be anxious to get their stuff back especially if it's been a while and they never thought they would.

 

It really kind of surprises me how many times people need to mention how the act of keeping known stolen goods is ILLEGAL. I don't understand how that wouldn't suddenly change a person's tune. Why people are still going to say they'd keep it is beyond me. When the thief is caught, they have to tell the police what they did with the item. Sure, you may get to claim that you had no idea the doll was stolen, but you're still going to be without a doll in the end. Why prolong it?

This kind of thing also relies on honesty by both the original owner and the person who has the doll.

I'd make suggestions as to how best protect yourself from scammers, but I'm worried that people might see them as tips on how to better scam someone.

But like I said before, you're probably going to be without cash. And I'd feel bad - but at the person who sold me the doll. I don't know if they stole it, or if they bought the stolen doll, didn't bond with it, and sold it - not having any idea. It's going to be terribly sticky, and it will take a lot of time. But if it happened to me, and I got a stolen doll by accident, I'd feel good that I helped someone. I would not do it alone, by just sending the doll back. That's way too risky, because that person might be lying. I'd urge them to contact their local authorities, and I'd contact mine. The two will communicate.

If I ended up selling a stolen doll that I didn't know was stolen, I'd contact the buyer, immediately, and would tell them that they have a stolen doll. I wouldn't ask for the doll back, but I'd ask them to contact their authorities (I'd contact mine, too), and then the owner. I don't know for sure, but I think the police would want to hold onto the doll until they could clearly verify the doll was that other person's.

Under any circumstance, I wouldn't *just* offer to send the doll back to them. While that might seem like the most polite/honest way of going about it, it's also pretty foolish. Having the slow, thorough investigation by the proper authorities would ensure that yes, this doll did in fact belong to them, and yes, they have photographic evidence of that, too. I wouldn't feel safe sending the doll back to a person without their involvement.

Even if they threatened to sick the police on me if I didn't send back their doll, after I contacted them, I wouldn't do that. I'd contact my closest police department, and tell them the whole story. Then, I'd go back and tell that person that you already told the police, and THEY will send the doll back after an investigation has found the seller/possible thief, the original thief, and/or found that this was in fact their doll.

 

Well, as someone who has actually had a doll sent to them in accident by Rosette, I know what I did was to contact them and ask why I had received a doll that I hadn't paid for. They asked me to send the doll back and refunded me for postage. Things like that do happen.

As for accidentally buying a stolen doll, I think you have to try to do what you can. I have bought secondhand dolls, so I guess there is always the possiblity. I would want to see some sort of proof that the doll had been stolen. I'm assuming that it wouldn't necessarily be a signature, a lot of people have customised face-ups etc on their dolls. Assuming it had been stolen at a conference etc, I would be contacting paypal, ebay, credit card company etc and trying to get my money back and yes, I would return the doll to the owner.

What if the doll was a standard, basic doll, not customised and the proof was 'I'm sure this doll was stolen by the seller from my friend, because I'm sure they didn't own one previously'. After contacting the seller for proof of purchase, the seller claims that they had liked the doll in question so had bought one secondhand themselves, then after the original doll went missing and they felt they were being blamed for the theft, the doll had so many unpleasant associations that they were getting rid of it. They paid cash to a friend who was leaving the hobby/state or bought it at a BJD convention and can't remember the name of the seller etc so don't have proof of purchase as such. Perhaps they can point out ways in which their doll differs ie less dirty, scratched. The owner of the stolen doll claims the person has merely cleaned it up/sanded a little. In essence, it is an accusations of theft without genuine proof as 'I believe they stole it' has yet to stand up in a court of law but the possible original owner is still out a doll. What do you do?

 

The good thing about turning it over to the police, especially, is that if there's a scam involved, they absolutely will find that part out unless people are particularly wily. It's why it might be best to give the police the doll, the information about the missing doll, and the information about the seller -- but not necessarily contact anyone about the fact that you've done so.

While I would be inclined to want to contact the person who originally owned the doll, I would personally be considerably more comfortable letting the police handle that part. Since I'd be turning it over to the police regardless of anything else, there is definitely a part of me that would be uncomfortable saying, "Hey, I think I have your doll... but I'm not giving it back to you, I'm giving it to the cops, so you're still not going to get it back for a while." Maybe that sounds cruel on my part, but the situation would be awkward enough without potentially having to handle the 'victims services' side of things -- I can very reasonably foresee an owner just wanting their doll back immediately and can empathize, but without the intervention of the police, not only is this scam a potential reality, but I'm likely not going to get my money back either.

 

Hobbysue, I was wondering the same thing. The fact that these dolls can be customized and changed, and can sometimes go through several hands, can certainly make things a bit more complicated.

 

The moment I knew 100% that it was his or her stolen doll I would contact that person and get the doll back to him or her as soon as possible. I'm the kind of person who can get really attatched to something (I have a very sad looking stuffed animal that has been around for years because I can't give it up) so if my doll was stolen, I'd like whoever may have bought it without knowing to return it to me once they discovered it was truly mine. It's a feeling of justice that the precious doll is back where it belongs.

 

Quite simple: you get the police involved. THIS is why you don't just give the doll back. But sadly, sometimes these cases don't get solved, and people don't get caught, or get their dolls back. Hopefully this discussion thread will encourage people - especially with default face-ups, but it applies for any BJD (because face-ups can be wiped off) - to try and mark their dolls in some way. Even just doing the head can at least save you some money if you end up needing to buy a different body because they switched it.

I think it's good to tell them that you've contacted the police; if they were trying to scam you, they'd most likely back off because you got the police involved - and even then, it's too late because the police are involved. Even if you tell someone that you may have their doll, I believe one should contact the authorities first, so that a possible scammer can't pressure you to return the doll by getting police involved.

 

i would do the same as if i just found a lost child.
contact the police and find the person whom the doll belongs to.

then maybe find the guy who sold me the doll and get the police on them

 

Clorista, are you "being argued with" or are people engaging in debate with you? My intention is the latter. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way-- I see my comments as on topic and to the point. I wouldn't have posted them otherwise.

FWIW, I also take comfort in the fact that so many are willing to do the right thing, even if the expense to themselves might be burdensome.

 

It's not like we're discussing "Which is better: apples or oranges?", and we're all saying oranges are better, and putting the apple people down for their choices. That's a debate, and you can go on for hours (probably) on the pros and cons of apples and oranges.

Heck, we're not even talking about morals. Morals are too subjective. We're talking about the LAW. How anyone can say anything to the contrary, knowing that others before them have mentioned heavy legal consequences to their actions is beyond me. It seems extremely brazen, and of course awfully foolish - especially when I know for a fact that the people who say they'd offer to resell the legit owner the doll back would not stand for it if someone did that to their stolen doll.

 

The OP stipulated that "the doll you had just bought was stolen."

Working from that stipulation---

First--the doll was definitely stolen and sold to me by the thief or a third party
Second--I now know without a shadow of doubt that it is stolen

LEGALLY I am ABSOLUTELY required to turn the doll over to the police. Sucks to be me, I am out the money, but that is the LAW in the US, Canada and Great Britain. It is ILLEGAL to keep stolen property. I would turn over the names and information on the people who sold it to me, and the evidence that it is stolen property, and the value of the doll (lest they laugh in my face about a "toy"). I would also contact the original owner AFTER this was done and notify the owner that the police in my town have the doll in their stolen property lockup.

It is possible (I would have to check) that my homeowners policy would reimburse me. PayPal will NOT reimburse you if you have bought stolen property, I looked it up, it is there in their policy statement. They WILL cancel the seller's account, but they will not reimburse you. eBay MIGHT, but probably will not. If you bought the doll with a credit card via PayPal, your credit card company generally WILL reimburse you (after grilling you to make sure that you did not know it was stolen, though turning the doll in to the police would pretty much cement that).

MORALLY I could not live with myself for being as bad, if not worse, than the thief. I don't care if it was a Volks one-off fullset; it would make me sick to know that I had willingly participated in a theft by keeping it. I have to say that I am appalled by the people here who are saying "I'd keep the doll" and "No way am I going to lose my money." If you are willing to cheat someone else in that way, what else are you willing to do that is wrong?

 

I agree with Victoria Victrix on this one. The OP set up a specific hypothetical situation in which you knew the doll was stolen. It's already assumed that you know for a fact it has been, regardless of how difficult that identification would be in reality. I have to say, it is a question that did set up anyone who answered with a, "sure, I'd keep the doll" for strongly negative reactions. As has been pointed out, this isn't one of those matter-of-taste arguments that predominate DoA. This has extremely real implications about matters clearly laid out in law. You can disagree with those laws, but general society's pretty in favour of laws that protect their property, so I'm not the least bit surprised at the strong responses. On a practical level, DoA works on reputation. I wonder how many people would be enthusiastic about marketplace transactions with those who say they'd knowingly keep stolen property?

And morality may be relative, but it seems most posters' morals line up with the law on this one, and I think practicality does, too -- commiting a criminal act, ruining my reputation in the hobby, and possibly going to jail, or doing the right thing and being out a few hundred dollars? Lot cheaper in the long run to do the right thing, not to mention a heckuva lot easier on the conscience.

 

^That's exactly what I meant by my last post, which is why it surprises me that people would still say they'd either keep the doll, or sell that person back the doll in spite of others pointing out highly probable legal ramifications. I didn't mean to say that we should *completely* disregard people's feelings of moral obligation (because I agree that they do coincide with the law); I just feel that the law would come before moral obligations for anyone who at didn't know about the legal aspect.

When it comes to the law, there is no choice to do something or not to do something. If you follow it, you most likely won't get in trouble; if you don't, you will face consequences.

 

I find this very smart thinking. Stolen goods are hot [bleep]. You could burn yourself on them even when you didn't know you bought something that was stolen and only found out after you received the doll. I would personally first contact the rightful owner to ask for a copy of the police report they filed to report the theft. That way I have proof the owner reported the doll as stolen, because if I file a police report I will be accusing the seller of selling stolen goods and that is a very serious accusation.

The reason why I would hand over the doll to the police for them to return it to the owner instead of returning the doll directly to the owner is that the owner has no idea if I'm speaking the truth about buying the doll without knowing it was stolen. The owner could accuse me of theft and by giving the doll back, I would give proof I was in possession of the doll.

There are all sorts of liars and scammers. People who claim their doll was stolen while it was not, but also people who steal dolls and then claim it was their friend or whatever and they had nothing to do with it. That's why I'd go to the police and let them figure it out.

I also appreciate the candour of those who openly admitted that they put their materialisms above anything else and that they would rather have someone else suffer than accept that they got duped by another and lose money over it. I know I wouldn’t want to end up with a problematic market place transaction with those people, because I can take a guess how that will end. Now I can take steps so nobody needs to worry about something like that ever happening and we will all be much happier.

 

Because as sucky as it may be people often get away with breaking the law. I mean unless the person who's doll was stolen knows who stole it and knows who now has the doll in their possession, there's not much the law can do. The police can and will try to track it down, but you have to have clues and or witnesses for that. You can't prosecute an unknown entity. And in most cases you're left with either the person who unknowingly ends up with stolen goods coming forward or a witness, or an item that never gets returned. It's easy to say it's the law, so why wouldn't you give it back! (And I agree they should) But often times what you're left with are people's morals and them deciding to do the right thing.

 

*hugs her dollies* Oh bloody heck, I had no idea that people in this circumstance would just keep the dolls. I mean if they're afraid of losing their money all they have to do after handing the doll over to the cops is to file a small claims case against the seller. If that person had received the stolen goods form someone else it's then on them to file their own case against that person and so on.

A person does not have to be convicted of a crime in order for someone else to file a case against them, and small claims can be for any amount up to but not exceeding $5000 (can be higher depending on where in the USA you live).

Link here: (this is for NJ but the info is pretty general, for more info search your own state)

I also have to point out one case I know (because I get bored and watch Judge Judy) of where someone left their I-phone at a store counter. The clerks held it until a customer saw it and said it was hers. The original owner called the phone and the woman picked up and said she'd return the phone for _ amount of cash. He said that was outrageous and he wouldn't pay for his own phone and went to the police. In the meanwhile she sold it. The owner filed a claim against her, got the full purchase price of his phone, all incurred bills, and money for mental anguish. And it was a ****-ton more than the phone was worth.

This has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with it being a crime.

 

Which was why I raised the point - what happens if the doll you bought 'may' be stolen. If the buyer has proof that they have received stolen goods, it is their legal responsibility to turn the doll over to police. But if there isn't absolute proof that the doll was stolen ie customised face-up wiped, seller has proof of purchase of that type of doll but accuser believes it was sold before doll in question was stolen etc. Perhaps the seller is selling a basic doll with two standard MSD outfits which happen to be the exact outfits/sets which were stolen at a conference. If the doll is from say Dollmore and I know that I've ordered from them and done group orders, you could well be able to call up paypal receipts that say you have purchased from Dollmore, but perhaps you have 'forgotten' your password etc. Technically the buyer could have 'proof' of the Seller purchasing from Dollmore. Perhaps the doll was bought thirdhand and the seller had twins - one was stolen and the other was not. When the case isn't clearcut and the police don't have enough evidence to prosecute but say it was 'likely' that the doll was stolen - what do you do? Then it becomes a moral issue rather than a legal one. When it is clear that the doll will not be forcibly taken from you and returned, do you give back a doll that may be stolen or not?

The other scenario from the original poster is that you buy a doll say a customised Soom Beryl - she's your grail doll, you've wanted one for ages, they're hard to find but now one is yours. Then you do a search for fellow Soom Beryl owners and discover one has been stolen. When you click on the thread, there is your customised doll. At this point in time, no-one knows that you own her, no photos have been posted, only you and the seller are aware that you own a stolen doll. Then do you keep her hidden, removed customised face-up and pretend nothing has happened, or do you return her and potentially face the loss of $1000 or so. Perhaps when you bought her you had a job and are now jobless and relying on the funds from her sale to help pay your rent. I'm sure that people will say that they will automatically return her, and other will secretly think they will keep her (now that they know they'll get smacked down here for saying so).

I know that I came home one day and found a package that I wasn't expecting on my back patio. When I unwrapped it, it was a doll I hadn't ordered. After the first five minutes of "what the hell is this doll doing here", then I'm faced with the "what do I do with it?" question. Now while I am fairly certain that Rosette would have picked up the fact that they had sent the doll to the wrong person, I have a box on my back patio, no signature as proof of delivery and a free doll in my hands. The thing that surprised me was when I looked at her, how strongly I felt that I shouldn't keep her. I looked at that doll and just knew that I would not enjoy one moment of having her. After I contacted Rosette, I posted here about receiving the wrong doll and someone on this forum was waiting for that exact doll. Sure enough, it appears that Rosette had sent the doll to not just the wrong person, but the wrong country entirely. It cost me a mint to send the doll back, but I didn't have an issue. The person got their doll a short while later and I got a quick peek at what that sculpt looks like. Rosette refunded me postage costs and we were all happy. The thing that surprised me is that while I thought it would be a happy day to get a free doll, nope, not even slightly. Now when I won a free aria doll - another story entirely. Then I was incredibly happy to get a free doll.

 

Yes, it will be difficult and hard, but we are not controlled by our emotions. Even though we can't help what we feel, we are still able make a rational and right decission by choosing not to act on our feelings, but on our principals (or a nation's law).
I hate to break it, and I know that it is a popular argument nowadays, but emotions are not the overlords of human reasoning we sometimes want them to be.