What would you do if...you bought a doll that had been stolen?

Too true. In a perfect world, people who were scammed got their money back, and the person who owned the doll got their doll back. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen. We all would like to learn a lesson in the most harmless of ways; we all would like to say 'I got scammed, but I got my money back,' or 'My stuff got stolen, but I got it back.' Who doesn't want that?

But this is not a perfect world, and you tend to not get everything you started with. I agree that you do take a risk buying secondhand (which is why I don't see myself doing so, because I don't want to take that risk). The harsh reality is that, yes, you can't have everything go back to the way it was before. That's not to say things like that don't happen, where the thief is caught, they still have your stuff, and you eventually do get it back, but chances are the greatest thing you get is a lesson.

You learn, as the buyer, that you take a risk buying second hand, and you're faced with the decision to try again, or strictly buy from the company. As the owner, you're faced with the lesson to mark your possessions with undeniable proof that it is yours, and/or maybe to be a little bit more cautious when taking your dolls out.

Thinking about it, I think some people might be angry at the owner (which is completely irrational) for owning the doll because they're thinking more along the lines of "It's not fair that they get to have it, because I bought it!" But what they're not realizing somehow is that their buying a stolen item doesn't stop it from being a stolen item, or "less stolen". Just because you went the perfectly legal route to get that doll, it doesn't mean your desire for it trumps the original owner (victim). After all, they went the legal route for that doll, too.

I'm going to stretch things a bit (maybe a lot) and propose that this mentality relates to the mentality of people who get angry when owners of LE dolls mod them. When people don't realize the fact that it's not their doll, so they have no say, but they keep getting angry at people who have modded their LE's. I think this somewhat applies here, because people are thinking that this doll is theirs because they paid for it, which they somehow think trumps the idea that it was stolen from someone else. You may have loved this doll (it might've been your grail doll), but it doesn't trump the fact that someone else did.

I guess, to make things more interesting, what if this happened:

You buy a doll, second hand, and you own it, customize it, etc., for a month or two. You've become quite attached to it, and consider it your favorite among your crew. While browsing DoA, you somehow come across the section where people report stolen dolls (either because you didn't know it was there, or wasn't thinking about your doll being stolen). You come across a thread posted a week ago about one DoA member's friend who had her doll stolen at a doll meet, with a distinct mark inside the head.

The reason why they didn't report it sooner was because they were not members of DoA, and didn't know that you could report a stolen doll there. They did not think to report it to the police, because they thought they wouldn't try hard to find a doll, regardless of price. Their friend is reporting it because they're a DoA member, and only learned about it recently.

You notice that the doll in question isn't an LE doll, and matches your doll in terms of sculpt. You look inside the head and find the marks described.

How would you go about this?

 

I agree that reasoning should take top place in a situation like this, but there is a very good emotion to rely on: the fear for a criminal record.
As I said before, there is a possibility that the rightful owner will accuse you of stealing the doll and as others have said it's illegal to keep stolen goods. A criminal record can ruin your life. When you have one it will be harder to get jobs, loans, mortgages and for me it will mean the end of the volunteer work I love to do as I work with a vulnerable group of people and you have to be squeaky clean before you are accepted as a volunteer.
No dream doll is worth that much damage to my life. Dolls don't rule my life and I would be much happier, if the horrible situation is resolved with a happy end for at least one person (=the owner when they get their doll back).

Contact the owner, ask for a copy of their police report (if they didn't file, ask them to file one), bring the doll and the copy of the police report filed by the owner to the police and file my own report. It doesn't matter if I'm attached to the doll or not. If it's clear to me the doll is stolen, I don't want the possible consequences of being accused with anything and it needs to be resolved ASAP.

 

This seems to be quite the active debate.

If it were me, firstly, contacting the police is a must. After their investigation, there wouldn't be much I could do but try and get my money back from the seller/thief. If I had really become attached to the doll, I might ask the original owner if I could buy it from him/her. The worst they can do is say no, after all. Trying to imagine this situation with actual dolls I've bought from the MP, being honest with myself, I'd cry if I found out one of them was stolen. Not that I suspect they are, but to get an idea of how it would feel, I imagined my first, most precious doll being taken away by the police... I would be so crushed. I'd be one of the ones who lets the law handle it, but I might not be happy for a long time afterward, unless by some miracle the original owner did let me buy the doll from them, so I could keep it legitimately.

 

Exactly! The law trumps any emotions or feelings I might have on the matter. I might think it's terribly unfair, and I might feel the world is against me, etc., but the fact is that if I don't return it in a timely fashion, I might get in real trouble. Some may theorize that sweeping it under the rug is good for a doll, but you can't do that for a criminal record. I'd rather be as much help as I can, rather than they find me, and try to charge me with knowingly owning stolen goods.

I'd especially feel bad if all of a sudden, police came to my door, saying I might be in possession of a stolen item. It would be extremely scary, and nerve-wrecking, so I'd rather be proactive and take the initial steps myself, rather than possibly being surprised.

I'd be extremely upset, too. I'd cry, mope for a while (there would probably be more "this is a dumb hobby" sayings along those lines by certain people, too). I might stay off DoA for a time, and air my grief on my blog. I might get extremely angry at the person who sold me the doll. I might be extremely angry at the law, even. I might get angry at life for dealing me another card like this. I might stop buying secondhand, or I might leave the hobby altogether. A lot of different things could occur as a result.

I never thought of asking the owner if you could buy it from them. An interesting idea. My asking would maybe depend on how they felt about the doll all this time. Maybe they got used to the doll not being theirs anymore, so they've since lost that connection? There's no way to know, though. Some people are attached to things stronger than others. I don't know if I'd think this was a good idea, though. If someone is in the place of a victim, they might be less inclined to understand that you've had the doll for x time, and see where you're coming from, but instead see you as maybe rude to be asking to buy their doll from them, when they're trying to get the doll back in the first place. It might be a risky thing to ask.

 

No, but I guess the temptation would be whether you did 'the right thing' and potentially lost a lot of money or simply handed the problem onto someone else by stripping the identifying face-up/marks and selling the doll. In my case, I'd be more worried about the repercussions of handling stolen goods than anything else but if you needed money to pay rent etc, then losing the cost of the doll could be a major consideration as well. People have a tendency to 'reason' decisions as well ie this is the only doll I own and I've saved a year to buy it, the original owner has over 30 so surely my need for the doll is greater etc.

On the other side of the coin, if I had one of my dolls stolen and found out that the person who bought it had saved for ages to afford it and been ripped off by the thief, I would tend to tell the person to keep it if they were honest enough to tell me that they had it. I'd certainly be trying to prosecute the thief and at least get the money for the doll though. But I'm fortunate that, emotionally, my BJDs are not my 'children' and while a doll getting stolen would be annoying and upsetting, it would not be the end of the world. So the other aspect is that telling the original owner does not necessarily mean losing the doll depending on the person. The original owner is a human being as well.

 

If it turns out I had unknowingly bought a stolen doll, I'd be very upset at the thief and at life in general, but I'd be even more upset if someone has my stolen doll and refuses to return it to me (through the police if that's what they are most comfortable with). If my doll was stolen, I'd like it returned to me, so in that light I will return a stolen doll that has come into my possession.

I do wonder if the people who said they'd try to keep the doll after finding out it was stolen, because they don't want to lose money, realise that they can't sell the doll. Unknowingly buying stolen goods is one thing. Selling goods of which you know they have been stolen will open a very ugly can of worms. So if you for whatever reason have no interest in the doll anymore (people's tastes do change over time), you can't sell it and are stuck with a doll you don't want with no money for it either.

I have another question:
What would people do if they found a doll? Bring it to "lost and found"/hand it over to the police or think "Hey, free doll!" and keep it and if you keep it, would you later on sell it ("Hey, free money!")?
I hope it's clear that in my opinion the only correct action is to bring the doll to "lost and found"/the police, but since there are people who have said they would keep a stolen doll, I'm wondering what they would do should they find a lost doll.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree about it being a *hard* choice to make on an emotional level, and yes, some people will now lie about it. But personally I'm quite glad to see that a lot of people on here have made a clear distinction between selfishness and legal obligation, because this is a hobby which is (sadly) full of scammers, and sometimes it's easy to feel like there is no point in staying in it. Seeing people here saying that yes- they would do the right thing and yes- they would return a stolen doll is actually a nice thing to see.

I'm waiting to get a SOOM MD at the moment, as it happens, and while I'm buying him new I can imagine how it would feel to pay for a second hand one and then find out it was stolen. I would be absolutely gutted. And I'm not that well-off that I can afford to lose $1000, either, so it would be a big damn deal to give up that doll. But I'd still take it to the police and hand it over, because frankly, much as it would hurt, I don't think I could live with myself if I became a petty criminal over a doll.

(This is assuming, of course, that the doll is 100% stolen, and not a hyphothetical 'what if the original owner is a bit shady' situation.)

That's an interesting one.

I would probably post around on all the forums I was on, with a very neutral message like 'BJD doll found in **** area- if you are missing one let me know the details.' That way if someone has lost their doll, or knows of someone who has, they can get in touch and tell me about it. This would make it harder for someone who *isn't* missing a doll to get in touch and pretend that it's theirs, because they won't know what I've found.

If someone gave me a good description of the doll, and pictures of it to prove it was theirs (or in some other way convinces me it belongs to them) then the doll goes home. If not and a fair amount of time goes by with no-one reporting it stolen or getting in touch... I would probably clean it up and keep it, but it would never feel like it was mine, and I think I would always be on the look-out for someone going 'remember that doll I lost? I miss that doll...' I certainly don't think I would feel comfortable changing it's face-up or anything, and I certainly wouldn't feel right selling it. It would probably end up on a shelf, waiting for someone to come forward and claim it.

(I currently have a very nice and hard to find action figure in mint condition from a group order that I am doing something similar with, so I am pretty sure I know how it would go for me. I have lost contact with the person who bought it, but it's still packed up and ready to be shipped if I can ever track her down again.)

 

It is indeed a good idea to not give away too many details of a found doll. I once found something small and when I told about it I had over five people claiming it was theirs. :S

Although it would be tempting to keep a found doll of which you can't find the owner, considering how much they are worth, I'd still bring it to the police. It's not a cheap $5 shawl or book the owner wouldn't miss. A $X00 doll will be missed. Who's to say that the owner isn't someone who doesn't browse around the same forums I visit or has no friends in the community, but did do their best trying to find their doll by going to the police station near where they lost the doll hoping someone has brought it in?
[edit] Would you keep a found Rolex watch or Prada bag, if you can't find the owner? I personally have no idea where to look for the owner of those things, so bringing it to a police station would actually be the easiest way out. With dolls you do run the risk of the police not knowing the value of the doll and giving it a lesser priority than something of equal, but more obvious value. [/edit]

Someone leaving part of a group order unclaimed is another matter. In that case the person who paid for the item knows where it's at and just doesn't bother to get it. You're not a storage facility so after a reasonable amount of time and effort on your side to get a hold on the owner, you can consider the item as discarded by the owner and free for you to claim. You can't do that with a found doll.

 

You make a very good point- the best thing *would* be to take it to the police if no-one could be found.

However, the police usually give lost items back to the person who found it if they can't locate the owner either (I can't remember if they look for 30 days or longer...) and if that happened... I still wouldn't quite feel like the doll was mine!

 

I say argue to mean debate. The point is being argued and differing thoughts are being put forth. I didn't think you were attacking me at all. I honestly don't feel offended, in fact I think you brought up some interesting points that led to a more intensive discussion. I do apologize if it seems as though I am offended in some way. I rather enjoyed this conversation on morality. Very illuminating.

I still get the shivers thinking of a doll thief knowing my address. I don't think breaking and entering is the kind of thing that most of these thieves will do, but if your the kind of person who steals a doll you might be the kind of person who would do other nasty things, you might not but who'd risk it? Turning in the seller would be a priority for me. If they purchased the doll legally and resold it in good faith then they can hash out with the authorities and the person who sold them the doll. Does anyone know if that has ever happened? A doll thief coming after a collector they had sold a stolen doll to?

 

I do know that this has happened with the owners of parrots, which are also expensive. And it has happened with people who have bought expensive items from Craig's List or other advertisements. Buying something expensive from a thief means that a thief knows you have money to spend and will probably have other expensive things.

 

You've got that right! Good God. This thread is very useful in that it certainly sorts the morally courageous from the... shall we say... less scrupulous people out there. Seriously, some of the views expounded here are pretty disgusting. Keeping a stolen doll if you decide you like it? Getting the victim of the crime to shell out money to get their doll back? Doing BOTH? Nice.

Queen of Spades: While I have to admire your bravery in putting out a highly controversial opinion, I can't say I agree with your idea that money is more important than being a generally decent person.

 

No one is saying that it would be a happy situation to be in, but upsetting or not, there is only one thing that can be done -- return the doll. Also, I know you mentioned turning in the seller to the police, but if you do that you aren't going to be allowed to keep the doll. It is illegal to keep stolen property, and there isn't any way around that.

Personally, no matter how much I loved the sculpt and wanted the doll, I would feel so guilty that it didn't rightfully belong to me, that I wouldn't want to keep it anyway. This isn't a hard question for a lot of people to answer, because it's one of the few that have a very clear right and wrong. No matter how emotional you are, how much you love the doll, how much money you're out etc etc, it's always going to be wrong to keep it. Not being prosecuted, keeping one's integrity, and being able to respect oneself in the end are more important things than money or the love of a particular sculpt.

 

I have found a doll, on the streets of New York City, after what we surmise may have been a snatch and grab bag theft. The dolls were stored in a camera bag, so we assume the thief thought the bag would contain a valuable camera, not valuable dolls. So the bag was left rummage through and the doll was left on the sidewalk. Sadly, one was never recovered but one was.

Luckily, it happened during NY Dolpa weekend and the doll found was a Volks doll that had been just released at the Dolpa, so we had a pretty good idea of where she was from, as well as the camera bag being very distinctive. Took them both back to my hotel room overnight. We contacted Pat Henry, the FDQ organizer of the Dolpa, the next morning, and it turns out a member had reported to her that their bag with two dolls was stolen the day before. The bag and doll descriptions all matched up, so we returned them to their rightful owner. Who cried a lot and thanked us for giving her back.

Someone did actually ask me and my friends, we were all walking together when the doll was found, why we didn't keep the doll. I was just shocked someone would think to keep it. It wasn't my doll, and it just wasn't right to keep her. Now, if no one ever came forward at the Dolpa, I would have come to DoA, contacted the mods, and made a post about a doll found in NYC and want confirmation on all of the details before returning the doll to the proper owner. If no one came forward even after DoA for a long time, I am not sure what I would do. Probably keep the doll in a box stored safely. Best to not get attached to something that isn't yours.

 

But the money I saved would have taken me months to earn! (Being a full time student -_____-)
What a moral dilemma!

Probably... I would contact them,
And I hate to say, it would take a lot to do so ;___;

Haha ! Either way Im reporting that ebay seller!
If it had been stolen by someone he/she knew, who had stolen it on Ebay, then tell this person?
Maybe you could get your money back after all And a happy owner gets their doll back.


Although... perhaps that is just being optomistic...

 

I didn't know the police tends to give items back to finders when the items remain unclaimed. (I do know they do that with money, unless it's evidence in a case like money from a bank robbery). I thought they would keep unclaimed items for X amount of time and then sell them off for charity or whatever.
Actually, I have no idea what the police does with unclaimed found items, but if they return it to the finder, then I think it's okay to sort of "take custody" over the doll. It's not yours, but you're looking after it (as far as you like to think in those terms when it concerns an object).

Kim, that's a great story. Just hearing how happy the owner was when she got her doll back should be enough to know there was no other option than to make sure the doll got back to the owner. ^_^

 

NM I am staying out of this debate..

 

Dang, lively thread! Well, I did my dolls stolen (see sig), so this debate is pretty personal to me. Especially since I just got a PM about a possible sighting of one of my girls at a recent anime convention in Sacramento. She was for sale in a sketchy-looking booth... the person who PM'd me didn't know she was stolen until she got home and checked DoA. I think that as BJDs become more popular, we might see more stolen dolls for sale.

I think if someone contacted me because they'd accidentally bought one of my dolls, I'd offer some kind of reward or compensation--at least shipping. I mean, it sucks for them, and I would appreciate their honesty in contacting me. But it would be uncool (not to mention illegal) for them to try and charge me. If someone refused to return my doll, I would be so pissed! Like, police action pissed. But I do understand that how awful it would be to buy a stolen doll with your own money, and then be told it wasn't really yours.

I would never keep a stolen doll, obviously. I'd return it, even though I would be sad, of course.

 

I would like to think if my dolls were stolen, resold and then discovered by the ebay victim to be my stolen dolls they would return them to me. Personally, (as I stated earlier in the thread) I would find it just wrong of them to not even contact me or offer to return them.
I, of my own choise, WOULD offer to pay shipping and also a 'finder' fee but that's only because of how I was brought up.

 

Speaking as someone who works with law enforcement, but is not, in fact a sworn officer, I can say with confidence, that yes, this is the case in /most/ law enforcement agencies. You'll turn it in to them as found property, they'll investigate with any info that you can give them about how you came into the possession of the item, and usually if the owner does not come forward in 60 days, and you want the item back, you can claim it.

If you don't, then yes, items can go to auction. As does property confiscated during certain sorts of investigations/arrests (This is how people get cheap vehicles sometimes, from sheriff/police auctions. )

As to the OP's original question, as soon as you're aware the doll is stolen, if you decide to keep it, then yes, you are perpetrating a crime, and choosing to allow a thief to get away with a crime as well. I would contact my local law enforcement with all the information I had, including turning over the doll to them, and contact the original owner with the report number and contact info for that police agency. The burden of proof is therefore out of my hands and up to the original owner and the police. I would also file charges and court proceedings against the seller. Not just the right thing to do, but the legal thing as well. End of story.