What's the Fascination

Mar 20, 2017

    1. What's with the fascination with skinny bjds. I'm kinda bored with them all having the same skinny or super skinny physique. Anyone else feel this way. I hardly see any chunky or just normally proportioned dolls unless it's by the really small not famous companies. And even then they aren't really that different more like average instead of skinny. I think it would be cool to make a bigger or thicker doll.
       
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    2. The problem with bigger or chunkier dolls is poseability- real fat can squish, but resin is hard, and more mass=less movement. Otherwise, I know there's a few artists though who have been sculpting chubbier/thicker dolls, my personal favorite currently is the doll user @mokarran is making that you can find photos of on her flickr. She's quite the cutie and even though she's bigger, the photos seem to show she's just as poseable!

      Not sure if anyone can confirm/deny but I also believe it's less socially acceptable in asian countries to be overweight, which is why dolls might be modeled as thin as they are, most countries seem to view thin as ideal too, and dolls are supposed to meet "standard beauty" if you will.
       
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    3. I really wish there were more dolls that weren't super skinny but it makes me wonder how the mobility would be for the legs, I wouldnt want them to rub against eachother and risk chipping or anything ;;
       
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    4. It would be the same fascination that there is with skinny humans, I suppose. It's just a very very common beauty standard around the world
      I do hate the lack of variety and realism though. Nowadays I'm really into bodies with "saggy" breasts (old limhwa, for exemple) just because it's different and more natural from every other company that only sculpts their busts for lingerie. And I desperately need girl dolls with meaty legs and/or big strong arms!!

      Edit: another reason would probably be clothing compatibility. Most companies have very similar measurements and so all the clothes are interchangeable and reach a broader market. unlike a company like iplehouse who is limited almost exclusively to itself. Clothes makers rarely bother stocking these sizes, and iplehouse's clothes don't really sell outside of iplehouse dolls owners.
       
      #4 sahoma, Mar 20, 2017
      Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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    5. I'd say it's a mix of origin and difficulty.

      Those dolls are mostly still coming from Japan, South Korea and China.
      They all look like typical bishonen and bishojo, i.e. slim, pretty, kinda androgynous with long limbs.
      Even the ones outside of that spectrum are still fit and handsome (like Iplehouse). There's a reason why anything outside of that look, even if made by an asian artist, is automatically labelled as “western looking“ (again, see Iplehouse).
      The way people create art is often influenced by their origin, the art of their country, the average person surrounding them, the public opinion on beauty.
      Just look how different dolls look like on photos of Russian conventions! You will see very different creations there.

      I read from artists who aim(ed) for thicker body types, outside of the old pear shape with small bust, that it's difficult to have it look both realistic and mantain enough poseability.
      This is especially true when you want proper rolls, thick legs and so on.
      Most dolls are not only thin but also very smooth, which makes cutting in the joints easier and avoids pieces bumping against each other.
      Like, if the thighs are too thick sitting can be difficult because they would push against the hip holes.
      Unlike real meat resin is not squishy, and while a standing doll is possible a properly posing one might not be. Properly posing meaning more than just standing, stiff sitting and maybe touching the face with a hand.
      How should a chest joint slouch over a protruding belly, while in relaxed mode should fit snuggly onto the top?

      I still wish there would be more regular bodies. Would be happy already if guys wouldn't automatically come with a six-pack, especially at 70cm. On the other side we had to fight years for muscled girls and the options are still slim.

      (On top of that a fit or slim shape is generally seen as pretty by many.
      Makes for easier sales and is probably just liked by many artists, I guess)
       
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    6. I think is more because of the world standards than posability and mobility. I've yet seen some different BJD. Regrettably, everywhere, they prefer thin people...
      ( sorry for my english , I'm french speaking)
       
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    7. Uuuuuuuuugh seriously. I've seen a lot of people argue before about mobility and the weight of the resin, but when there are so many centaurs and 70-80cm dolls around these days I don't think the latter is an excuse. I would love a properly fat doll, but if mobility were truly an issue then at least more bodies without completely flat stomachs etc would be nice, like freakstyle's Salomé.

      The hows can be worked around, it's definitely just a matter of why- fatphobia :/
       
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    8. Are you seriously accusing dozens of artists, if not more, of having fatphobia? Most of those not even from your cultural background?
      Don't you think it's a bit easy from your side to claim “it's possible, people just don't want to because they are bigots!!1“?
      I mean, even if it's so easy, an artist can sculpt what he wants.
      And if it's easy, what's stopping all those people who want such a body?

      You can't really compare smooth and slim 70cm or bigger dolls to a truly fat doll of a similar size.
      Not to mention that all those big dolls come with their very own issues due their weight, big dolls don't pose that well compared to their smaller counterparts.
      But if you add thick rolls and similar parts the posing definitely gets more difficult.
      There ARE people who try/tried their hands on fat dolls (Kayke made one, there was a crowdfunding for one, I know one from a french artist etc.), none of them posed well.
      They all were more of a “looks good while standing“ thing.

      A more “non fit“ shape would be no issue, with overall a tad bigger thighs and chubby belly. Or that “wakfu“ aesthetic.
      I agree.
      But many prefer those in an idealized and more, uh, fetish-y way.
      Like those certain chubby anime characters like Super Sonico.
      Not sure if that's really closer to realism.
       
      #8 Ara, Mar 20, 2017
      Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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    9. Wow I didn't think so many of you felt the same way. I really am glad to see it. You all bright up really good points about the origins of the dolls and mobility but a lot of the beefy/buff male dolls have some THICC thighs lol. They seem to pose fine. I don't know I guess to me at least it definitely seems a little more like fatphobia but I'd like to hope not. I think I personally would like to design a doll that looks like it has some meat on its body lol. Like what if the stomach was three pieces that could over lap to look like tummy fat or just a more rounder full form. Lots to think about. Thanks everyone for commenting.
       
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    10. I plan to sculpt (when im done with the head im sculpting now)a thick /chubby mature doll for this reason . While I love the big hip Girls i really wish they had some more tummy , thicker arms and a bigger bust . i cant seem to bond with thin mature sculpts with silicon style boobs
       
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    11. I agree. I'm not a fan of that aesthetic. I collect mainly boy dolls, but I try to choose bodies that are a bit more robust looking. I don't like the sticking out ribs and super slender limbs. It looks unhealthy to me and I don't find it appealing. I wish there was more choice, to be honest. Not necessarily fat (although the option for those that want that aesthetic would be cool) but alt least healthy. We seem to have a choice between hyper-thin and muscle bound, and that's about it.
       
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    12. I, too, would like to see some chunkier dolls. :) I enjoy variety in my collection and hope to eventually get different sizes, resin colors, fantasy parts, etc.

      I wonder if it would be possible to make a chubbier doll out of vinyl with an internal skeleton similar to Volks's Dollfie Dream or Granado's new Vindoll? Vinyl can bend and squish...although, admittedly, it may not bend and squish in realistic-looking ways.
       
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    13. I'm accusing society of fatphobia. Of course doll companies are going to produce what sells best, and skinny sells in every area.
       
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    14. But many companies are just one artist sculpting, and lots of them started with the idea to make something they like to sculpt.
      I doubt the majority of them sat down and said “I will sculpt something that sells well now“. There are companies like that of course, but BJDs are pretty unique because we have so many single, independent artists selling their creations too.
      I don't doubt that some truly dislike fat people, but if you look how often people wished for more diverse body types it would have made sense by now if someone jumped on it and made mad money with it.
      But the amount of fat dolls/non fit ones is so laughable small despite the expressed interest by many, which makes no sense if people look to make the most money.
      There are so many fit body types it would make no sense to add another one to the pool if you try to get some of the cake that is selling BJDs.

      Especially with dolls “unusual“ sells really good. People are willing to fork over quite a sum for something that is rare, hard to find or simply not “normal“. Else Doll Chateau wouldn't be so crazily popular (and no, not because they are slim, but because they are “weird“), or many of the artist dolls by independent artists.

      The DD vinyl is actually pretty hard, but there are fanmade silicone parts that are soft (like the Peach Pai parts). Sometimes you can see custom parts on Y!Japan that are really thick, but like mentioned they tend to go into that “idolized chubby“ area mostly.
      The parts are often veeeery exaggerated too.

      Not sure how the pure silicone bodies look like from other lines, I think they are usually slim too.
      Sadly seamless silicone ages badly :(
       
      #15 Ara, Mar 20, 2017
      Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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    15. I mean honestly there is an obvious amount of good attention to a small body weight wise in many scocieties. I don't see the justification behind many many dolls being overly skinny. I get the look is pleasing for bjds. But like the artist I tagged who made a chubbier doll it can't be that hard to make one for the popular companies. I'd enjoy the variety and lots of the characters I'd want to personify in the doll are not that skinny at all. It's frustrating to say the least
       
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    16. I saw I was tagged a few times in this discussion, so I just thought I'd add my voice in too ^^

      In the time I've been in this hobby, I think the variety of doll shapes and sizes has actually improved quite a bit... That's not to say there isn't a long way to go (in my opinion), but I think it's gotten better with so many smaller companies and individual sculptors gaining in popularity. I think the issues with body shape diversity aren't really exclusive to BJDs. It's something fashion dolls, action figures, etc. have been criticized for for a long time. In general I think it's a matter of convention - this is the way most people perceive fashion dolls look like, they find it aesthetically pleasing, and they don't think anything more of it.

      In the BJD hobby in particular, I think there is also still some holdover from Volks' long influence over the ABJD market. They made dolls in certain sizes, and these sizes became something of a standard (we still refer to things as being SD or MSD size, for example, even if they have nothing to do with Volks). Conforming to these standard sizes also adds a sense of security that people will be able to easily find things that fit their dolls. I think this still remains an issue for certain "odd-size" dolls, the constant testing of "what fits?" This is something I worry about a lot for the doll I'm making, because I'm not that great of a seamstress and I don't know if I can provide any kind of help for people looking to clothe her.

      Coming from the perspective of someone who is trying to sculpt a thicker/chubbier body type for a doll, I will say that yes, I did have to compromise in some areas in terms of mobility. Some of those decisions were made for stylistic reasons (I was very inspired by old single jointed Dollstown bodies, which are still one of my favorites despite their lack of poseability), but some of the compromises were definitely due to wanting to keep certain areas thick and round. Especially the knee joint. If I had made it a double joint, it would have looked gigantic and completely unnatural when fully bent, because her thighs are so large. But, I thought, maybe not having that poseability is ok... As a plus-size person myself, whenever I try to sit back on my heels like that when kneeling, it's super uncomfortable. Even my squishy human flesh gets in the way of a full knee bend XD So I guess I justified it a bit to myself, even though I had originally intended to give her double joints in the knees.

      I don't think decreased mobility is really that much of an issue, though... To some people it might be a deal-breaker, but to people like me who are kind of nostalgic for the days of single joints, it might be a plus XD I think as long as a joint moves smoothly, it becomes a pleasurable experience posing your doll. I hate having to fight with joints, getting pinched, and all that, haha.

      To me it was definitely more important to make a doll with a body type that I wanted in my collection, rather than the most poseable or the doll with the most selling potential. But I think for a lot of companies, sticking with the conventional sizes is a safer bet, so there are a lot of similar sized dolls out there.
       
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    17. I'm honestly less perplexed by thin dolls than I am by extremely large, unnatural-looking chests on female dolls. I like a variety of body shapes for my dolls; thin dolls and thick dolls both have merit for me. My male doll is rather thin and non-muscular compared to many male BJD, and and I have tiny who is kind of chubby with breasts, and doesn't totally fit the clothing of her size range because she isn't a child. I have to agree with a lot of what mokarran said, because Volks was the standard of size when I first got into this hobby 11 years ago. I see more artists experimenting with size now, but it can be daunting to think about clothing them when I suck at sewing.
       
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    18. I love slenderness, especially for my dolls (my most admired people are slender, my mom and taiko instructors) but for other things like plushies, I like the squish of chubbiness.
       
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    19. I get the poseability argument, but (albeit not from a doll sculptor) I can't help but think some creative jointing could fix some of that. Especially when tinies, with the body types they have, exist. Most childlike tinies would be considered chubby if they were sculpted to represent adult bodies (kid bodies are supposed to be chubbier, and but I'm not sure anyone would call them chubby or fat), and they pose just fine.

      I'll acknowledge that many tinies have fewer joints than MSDs and SDs, but I think that's as much a function of size then of chubbiness.

      I probably shouldn't bring politics into this discussion, but as an American I really can't avoid it as of late. Just look at the United States and say with a straight face that society isn't you know, just a bit prejudiced?

      Americans elected someone who was blatantly sexist, racist, xenophobic, and all around kind of a sucky person. He was caught on tape suggesting that he would sexually assault women and that his position as a "powerful" businessman made that OK.

      Some people said "they don't see color," or "racism and xenophobia in America are over" and now there are swastika graffiti defacing buildings, actual neonazis advising the president, and leaders of the KKK running for office. The president has tried multiple times to enact a ban on certain countries, the commonality between them being they are at the intersection of "countries with high muslim populations" and "countries I'm not currently doing business with."

      The vice president thinks conversion "therapy" is a good idea and cause an HIV outbreak in his home state which was so bad that the national government had to intervene, just because he wanted to deprive women of the ability to end a pregnancy/pretend that drug users don't exist (Planned Parenthood provides STI testing).

      I guess, my point is just that society is prejudiced. I am most definitely prejudiced. You are likely prejudiced. Both of us have likely also experienced prejudice. Both of those things can be true at the same time. This is why I think it's a safe bet to say that doll sculptors are likely prejudiced, because likely literally everyone else is.

      I also think that arguing about whether or not a person thinks they are prejudiced is kind of a red herring. You don't have to think you are prejudiced to be prejudiced. Jane Smith who "doesn't see color" likely thinks she isn't racist. John Doe who wonders if the girl in the miniskirt was asking for it doesn't think he's sexist. Joe Jones who tells the girl in the bikini that "nobody should have to see that," also likely doesn't think he's prejudiced against people who are chubby.

      But their opinions on the topic don't actually matter. Part of the reason prejudice is a systemic issue is because not everyone is aware of the fact that they are prejudiced. Prejudice is so overlooked and unseen that it is become ingrained in our social institutions without everyone being aware of it.

      This is why overweight people are less likely to be promoted and overweight women even less). This is why models tend to be underweight. This is why the representation of people in the media skews skinny, even though the majority of Americans (I don't know the stats from all of your countries) have the BMI to be considered overweight.

      So yeah, I think that part of this issue is prejudice. I think it's kind of naive to think it isn't.

      It'd also be pretty sucky of me to look right in the eye of someone who has experienced fatphobia and be like naw, I don't think reality as you experience it is real, and directly discount their experience. I mean, don't you think people actually viewed by society as being overweight should be like the first people you ask about this? They've kind of lived it.
       
      #20 americanseamstress, Apr 4, 2017
      Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
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