When is it alright to accuse someone of copying your doll/someone else's doll?

Another good observation, made in an unrelated context by a colleague who's a brilliant illustrator: "The first phase of creative development often includes copying."

He said his first drawings were composites of several photos or sketches of artistic photography. In the doll world, I'd be really tolerant unless a person was actively cutting into a highly specialized sale market. It seems there are many people, young and old, who are new to creative endeavors. At some point even the most ardent copykitten will get a few ideas of their own.

 

This is one of the things I've been thinking about more and more lately as a general concept. Two of the dolls I have on order, I had ideas for... that are apparently really similar to something another person wants to do. Hilariously, it's the same person in both instances, and at least one of the concepts is incredibly obscure. What are the odds? Seriously? (And she spoke up first in both cases, too.) One of mine has since changed to better fit a theme, one hasn't.

Apparently, the coincidence angle really does happen, even when it's extreme. Seriously, I dropped my jaw on one of them. It does, however, make me feel really just weird, like accusations may flow from somewhere at any moment if I ever post images unless I see we've gone in much different directions from the inspiration source. I know I have a very specific visual in mind, and am just really hoping we're not sharing a brain on that.

 

You know, I absolutely understand and think it's perfectly alright that copying is part of a learning process when it comes to art/fashion/etc. However, I really just don't see how it applies to the looks and personality of a doll. For face-ups and fashion, yes. But for everything else? One can't exactly say, "Oh, I'm copying this doll's general looks because I want to learn how to better put a blue wig and green eyes on a doll...yeap." It doesn't compute.

I personally aren't too fussed about similar looks among dolls because there are so many dolls out there and coincidences are bound to occur. I wouldn't accuse anyone of copying either because again...coincidence.

But the comparison between doll looks and personality to 'learning through copying in art and fashion' and 'imitation is flattery' just doesn't really make much sense to me.

 

bleh. I think I was tired when I wrote this before. please delete. ^^;;

 

I don't think I would accuse anyone because there are only so many things you can do with a doll and the possibility of you running into a doll that looks eerily similar is always there.

But I mean, if someone were to PM me or something complementing my doll and then the next day their doll looks exactly the same, I don't think I'd call them out on it. I'd be peeved, but I'd hope that if they truly enjoy copying people so much, that they'd find someone else to copy soon.

 

See, Here's the thing.
Before I started to really look around the gallery or even started to hang around here, I knew what I wanted for at least one of my dolls. I wanted a average everyday gay boy named Elliot. He was to be a Shiwoo. He was to be slightly effeminate with a cute geeky love for Anime and Star Wars. He was to wear cute little skirts every once and awhile. Ringing any Bells? It was rather a shock for me to find the other Elliot with so many superficial things in common with my Elliot. At first it had be so discouraged that I almost gave up on the character. I didn't want any accusations, and my Elliot couldn't be any other than a Shiwoo. Since then I have come to this decision. My Elliot came out of my head. He was completely my creation. That is enough for me.

Now, My Elliot and the other Elliot do have several similarities. In this case only coincidental.
I would be put off if someone claimed I copied. Though on that same note, Coincidence can only take you so far. For instance, If Another Virginia popped up, Exactly like my Virginia (who not only has very disticive hair colors, eye color, and a badly done face-up by myself, but who is also a very uncommon sculpt) I might question it. So perhaps if you have a common doll sculpt, with common attributes, you may not want to accuse anybody. If your doll and the other doll could be switched and no one would know the difference, perhaps then you can worry and accuse. Though never in public and never in a hostile way.

Sorry. Longo Post. :P

 

I don't honestly think I would get too offended if someone copied my dolls' looks....It would be weird, but I'd most likely giggle. I get a lot of people blatantly ripping off my drawings lately and that's pretty much all tracing or just stealing the image itself, but that doesn't really bother me. Honestly if people want to trace my drawings or copy my dolls, that's their problem. If I catch them tracing my stuff I will let them know I'm onto them and just be aware I'm laughing at them, but my dolls right now are kinda generic and default looking....I think that's my problem with Carmine....He blends in! He's....normal....looking....getting OT!!

I have had a 'friend' steal my idea and some art and claim as her own and that's when it bothers me. Really though you have to just accept it and deal with it calmly. There are always going to be people who do that. I'm not saying its right or that I agree with 'best form of flattery' crap, (that was probably started by a copier to justify themselves anyway) but you can't get worked up every time it looks like someone is copying you. And never run and tell the public as a first act. It makes you just look silly and childish. As fun as 'art theft' journals are they cause way too much trouble. And with dolls especially its harder to prove. Just giggle that you have a creepy fan without the popularity.

And out of curiosity (don't jump on me until you read this whole bit I'm not attacking I promise) but why is it ok to make character dolls based on popular characters from anime and books, but if someone were to make a doll based on your character, end of the world! I understand you put a lot of thought and effort into it, but don't you think the creators of those characters did? Just because they have a show/book/game doesn't make it right for you to make a doll of their creation. I'm not saying its bad. I have Pinkys I made into Death Note characters and I want a Hatsune Miku BJD. I'm just saying people get so worked up when their ideas are used when they, often times, are doing fanart. Taking ideas/art from someone else without crediting them IS BAD, don't do it, but did you write to Kishimoto and ask permission to make a Naruto doll before hand? Did you send him a photo after? Am I going to write to Tokio Hotel and....whoever makes Vocaloid >_>;; to ask if I can doodle poor renditions of them in my sketchbook? Nope. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone because I do the silly fan stuff too, I'm just saying it shouldn't be more acceptable when the character is popular *just* because its popular. Yes its easier to get away with when its a lesser known artist or person, but they still have to live knowing they aren't cool enough to come up with that on their own.

And really unless they start accusing you of copying them is it that big of a deal? You know you've got the 'original' or that the idea was from your head not based on so and so's doll. If you like a show or band you will be drawn to dolls and characters and other bands that remind you of that one you like so you will find comparisons between them. They've all got something you like. That's why you like them. so its not that big of a stretch to think that people who like the same things you do might pick similar dolls with similar personality traits or looks.

ok I'm done...I'm tired and should be sleeping anyway >_>;; I hope this makes sense in the morning....

 

Piyoko, just to address your question on why it might be deemed more 'acceptable' to base a doll or artwork on someone else's creation like an anime or book whereas it can get uncomfortable if someone steals your own personal artwork...when it comes to fanart or fanfiction, at least with fanfiction anyway on most sites you are pretty much required to write a disclaimer and let people know that the characters you are writing about are not your original creation. Same with fanart and while people might not be actively posting in every photostory that the idea behind the dolls' character is not there ( when it's a fandoll I mean ), it can be pretty much accepted that we know the owner did not create them personally. They aren't boasting that it's their original creation, only their rendition of it, which is why I don't think alot of people get too offended about them ripping off a character.

However, when it comes to someone making a doll on their own original character and then having someone come along and try to copy it exactly and claim it for their own, it's a different story. They aren't giving credit where due or asking the original creator if it is alright to do so. ( Authors and artists DO have the right to tell their fans not to use their work, there a number who have and for the most part people respect their wishes, so you can't really say they have no control over their work or would get upset over a fandoll. )

Anyway, I hope that makes a little sense and perhaps others agree

 

Piyoko I would think it would be more acceptable to use published characters because they are published and this means that they are out there and obvious, people know who they are and who made them and so when people make a BJD Bella and Edward couple people know immediately that those characters are made by Stephanie Meyer and not the person who owns the dolls.
That would be my issue with people copying my characters anyway because they would be getting the credit for my work as nobody would recognize it as my work as it isn't mainstream and popular.

 

Honestly, I think that the reason that people find it 'okay' to copy popular artists' work (fanart, fanfics, all that jazz) and not have anyone copy theirs is because they are-gasp!-hypocrites.

Humans as a general rule are. You accidentally cut someone off because you don't see them? Oh man, you didn't mean to. Someone cuts you off? JERKS! They need to pay more attention!

It doesn't matter to me if you're trying to claim the character or not. Just because a doll is from "that totally popular anime!" doesn't mean everyone knows the doll isn't yours. Unless you post a disclaimer under, above, and through every single post you ever make mentioning that doll or showing photos, there are going to be people who assume the doll is yours because they're not into whatever show you think that everyone should know the character from.

Ahem, back to the actual question.... I have a few different characters of my own made into dolls, and there are a few things that would set off little alarms. If my character had a unique name and another doll shared it? Not a red flag unless they fashioned the doll with a similar back story (and I don't just mean 'they both went to private school,' I mean 'they are both from X mythical island') and made them the same species if not human.

However, I have had someone try to rip off my characters before in roleplay. Someone changed one letter in a long last name and copied my description and look, and was harassing people and claiming to be me. This was when I was in a rather large 'guild' (weren't called that) in the game. That stopped FAST, when I found out.

I think that I have a few things that would cause me to 'call someone out' about it-like if they did what that person did and changed just one letter of a long (and made-up-by-me) name and fashioned their doll to look like mine, or really anything that involves taking a word, place, or name that I've completely made up and using it.


Edit: As for the Bella and Edward couple... It's rather narcissistic to think that everyone knows who those characters are. It's like saying "If you don't know who they are, then clearly you don't know anything!" when you put it like that, Andatariel. There ARE people who would think they were your characters, because they haven't ever seen/read whatever they're from. If I made an Ox or Amen-Ra Lordi doll, goodness, everyone should automatically know they aren't mine, right?

 

Let it go.

First of all, no one, including professionals, is as original as they think they are. I can't count the number of times that's come up in discussions between pro writers (90% of whom are having a good laugh about it.) It's almost as if there are Terry Pratchett's "idea particles" raining down and suddenly everyone is doing werewolves that work for carnivals or steampunk dirigible pilots. Something triggers a rash of these things and sometimes they can look astonishingly alike.

Everyone builds on the things they know, and with so many people in this hobby sharing the same interests, liking the same anime, looking at the same things, it is inevitable that you are going to get some things that look like direct copies. ESPECIALLY if two people build their character off they SAME fullset.

And even if it is a direct copy....so what? As a professional whose characters are copied in doll form all the time with my permission and who is well aware that people are writing fanfics...my response is, have fun. Are planes falling out of the sky because my ideas have been copied? Has California been dropped into the ocean? Has a plague of locusts devoured all the resin in the world? No? Well then what does it matter?

If you are really that wrought up about it, then take that energy and put it into something creative instead of letting it eat you alive with anger. Make your version better. Get better at photostories, at costuming, at accessories, at faceups, at plotting story and backstory. Nothing succeeds like success, and this will make you feel the triumph of accomplishment.

And then let it go for heavens sake.

 

Narcissistic? Oh yeah, I wrote Twilight...

I actually hate the book. I think it's written like a bad fanfiction but that isn't the point here. I used it as an example because on this and most of the other forums I go on everyone does know who they are. Have you even looked at a thread containing them? One of the first posts will doubtless contain something along the lines of "OMG Twilight!!!!111!!"
And do you not go on the Tube/Subway? Or into bookshops? Or movie theatres? Or anywhere that sells Calendars? You seriously think the majority of people haven't gained at least enough knowledge to know that those characters come from a book when there are posters and trailers and adverts and badges and t-shirts and god knows what else that there are going to be a large amount of people who don't at least know that Bella and Edward are from 'that Twilight thing'?
And even if they don't right now you wait until next month when Warner Brothers releases the movie because they're trying to make it as big as Harry Potter.





Also in case I made someone feel like they don't know anything major kudo's to you for not knowing, I don't know how you've avoided it being rammed down your throat but I honestly envy you.

 

Case in point...when I read;

I thought..."Who?/What?" and then I realised that they must be fandolls from that sparkly vampire series......and I only know vaguely who these characters are because of the drama that erupted when Breaking Dawn was released </off-topic>

Yes, there is a social consciousness and many people do know the same things as many other people, but not everyone knows anything about some random teen supernatural book series that will not even be a blip on a lot of people's radars. You had to be big into children's literature and Robert Pattinson once upon a time to even know much about these books if you are 20+ in years. Even the superb 'The Boy in Striped Pyjamas' (which is also a recent film) remains unknown to a lot of people - you couldn't have two tinies called Bruno and Shmuel and expect everyone to know who they were based off names and appearance alone.

Everyone writes what they know...and we are all drawing from the same social consciousness, so of course it is impossible to be truly original...but if you are making a fandoll I don't think you have much room to complain if someone else makes a fandoll too, particularly if that character has a limited wardrobe and is fairly strict in their appearance. You couldn't have a Snape doll with an afro and a big grin dressed in a white Dollheart fer and expect people to know that he was Snape. There is only so much originality to go around when you are resinating someone else's character. You can only go on what this other person has given you, and it means everyone else who wants this doll will have to draw from exactly the same sources as you...and your dolls are going to look the same.

 

See that's what I meant, you realised that they must be from that vampire book and you even knew they were sparkly.
And yeah there was all the drama around it, it was even on the news where I am.
Not to mention the merchendise especially with the characters names, Borders had a huge poster in the window that said "Will Bella choose Edward or Jacob", that a lot of people will know vaguely who they are and then if they look even a little further down the thread the word Twilight will crop up.

 

I knew you meant something like that, but I wouldn't have known if it wasn't for my flist on LJ (I learnt the vamps were sparkly from LJ too...), and people who don't have an online friends list who adore disseminating literary phenoms, wouldn't know this!

I don't even know where this is going now...it's not always obvious that someone's fandoll is a fandoll if they are coming from a newer or smaller fandom, I suppose.

 

Oh I just knew because of all the stuff that seems to be everywhere, it's getting as bad as High School Musical...

And yeah I guess you're right, I mean if something comes from a huge fandom like Twilight or Naruto for instance a lot of people will recognize it and even for the ones who don't there will normally be a discussion under the pictures about the character or series.
I guess it all depends on how you handle it, I mean if you don't put a disclaimer on but then if someone compliments the character you say where it's from it's not as bad as the girl who was drawing Yu-Gi-Oh on DA and then saying that he was her own design and own character.

 

Um, what? I rarely see movies. I do not read preteen vampire romance novels. If I see anyone "Squee"-ing about ANYTHING in a post, if they seem like a rabid fangirl/boy, I will skip over it.

Sorry, I could more easily name the punishments and their levels in Dante's Inferno than I could tell you anyone from a popular anime/movie/whateverthehellTwilightis (I know it's a book, I have heard of the TITLE and nothing more-apparently some people are super rabid over it, some people have seen better scribbled on a bathroom wall, interesting reviews).

So since you seem to imply that I am stupid or oblivious (yay being 22 and not keeping up with this stuff), then... I can call you that too if you wouldn't recognize a doll that I made based on one of the minor nymphs, or some of Shakespeare's lesser-performed works? I'm sorry, but those things are more interesting to know, to me, than the newest OMG VAMPIRES!!11!1 thing.


Edit: Also, how is it not as bad if you don't ask permission from the original creator? They give you the go-ahead? Great! Keep giving them credit, but you have their blessing. Otherwise you ARE ripping off a character design, however much of a 'fan-tribute' you call it.

 

HAHAHAHAHAAAA! So so true. I'm also one of Twilight haters. I find vampires to be very cliche in general though. But i have a special ring of hell reserved for Meyer.

OT, but I have a funny story on the subject.

I work as a library aide at my school during a class period (it's quieter than a study hall so i can get more work done) and my only job is to shelve books that people return. well, twilight keeps showing up the rack to be shelved over and over and I go like this every time i have to shelve it:

Anyway, they had the copies of the book sitting on a table for a long time so we could just toss them on it rather than having to shelve them because they got checked out so often. The other day, the librarian told me to go ahead and shelve it when one came back. I went to go do that and I found that it would be right next to one of my favorite books: Bloody Jack by LA Meyer. I shifted the books around so there was a big gap around the twilight book because i didn't want it to touch the other books.

The librarian just started laughing and said that next time I should just go hide it somewhere so people can't find it and read it.

But the worst thing is when the fans get PERSONALLY OFFENDED when you say you don't like the book. They react as if you had just said that you kill puppies, and babies and you hate rainbows and ice cream. Well dang. Sorry for having an opinion that doesn't match yours.

 

You don't have to care about it to know it, not all of the fans are rabid and squeeing and it is everywhere at the moment.

And you don't seem to be paying a blind bit of notice to the fact that I don't like Twilight, I don't care about the newest omg vampires thing but I know things about it because a lot of places and people go on about it.
I personally would much rather read A Portrait of Dorian Grey or The French Liutenants Woman than the newest teen fad but I and a lot of others I know still know who the characters are because of the exposure. For the love of God even my Psychology teacher asked the class who Edward and Jacob were and why they were in the window of a bookshop. A lot of people know, If you choose to be insulted by this fact then that is your perogative and I will imply about you what I like considering you're the one who outright attacked me by calling me a narcissist.


EDIT: To say that you can't have a fandoll is like saying you can't have fanart. If I wanted to make a fandoll of something I probably would, if it was lesser known I'd make sure to give credit. However I would never make a fandoll of say Anne McCaffery's Dragon Riders because she has said she doesn't like fanart or fanfiction.

 

Suuchan has stated before that she doesn't approve of fanart, fanfics, or fan dolls. We may not agree with her, but she is entitled to her opinion.

But yeah, i want to see how pissed anne rice would be if someone made fan dolls of all her vampire characters. haha, especially now that she's pretty much shunned vampire books.