When is it alright to accuse someone of copying your doll/someone else's doll?

I wasn't trying to start a fight I was disagreeing in the respect that authors etc know that thier work, if loved, will come with fans who make art etc. however the point I really wanted to put across in that last statement was that if the author has specified that they don't like it I'm saying I would never do it with thier work because that is disrespectful.

EDIT: Also I wouldn't personally mind people using my characters if they gave me credit, or if they were well known enough that credit isn't needed because people just know who they belong to.

 

Oh, that's not what I meant. I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, I was just letting you know that it's kinda a known thing how she feels about it.

I personally like fanart in a form. ^^ *points to Henry Lau fan doll on her desk*

 

I know that authors here (the U.S.) sometimes don't like it if you use their characters.

But in the land of Japan, things only done for a private collection or no profit is generally ok (that's why there is a doujinshi market) now I'm not saying all Japanese creators don't mind (seriously nintendo DOES MIND). But most find it more flattering than not, and kind of encourage it as long as it is never done for profit.

 

Just because it's really starting to get on my nerves, can we please keep this debate on topic. If we need to bring up examples like Twilight to make a point, fine, sure thing, but to completely rag on it and basically call it a preteen-fad, horribly written fanfiction that's absolutely cliche-riddled and whatever...it's really rude and doesn't make anyone seem smarter or more high class just because they perfer reading the classics. It basically makes it sound like anyone who would even want a fandoll of a character from books like these are complete twats, and quite frankly, that's just really rude.

Personally, I've never read Twilight and I don't really care to since I just generally don't like vampires overall. It's just not my preferance, but I'm not going to insult anyone who does by trashing it when I use it as an examples for a debate like this. Sorry if that doesn't contribute much to the overall debate, but it gets very elitest sounding after awhile.

And just so I do further it along a little so this post isn't entirely OT, but as Andaterial pointed out, there are some authors and creators out there who do not wish for their works to be used in any type of fanart, and most of the time, people respect their wishes. But if an authoer has no problem with someone using their characters, say to make a fandoll, what do you expect the owner of the fandoll to do? Put a sign around the dolls neck at all times, claiming that they are not the original creator? If they make photostories or what have you with fandolls and claim to be the original creator, I can see where we would have a problem since that is stealing. But if they don't put anything at all and someone asks more about the character and then the owner mentions it is a fandoll, then what is the problem? They are giving credit where due, and I'm pretty sure most people won't make a fandoll of a certain author, such as Anne Rice, where it's pretty well known that such things are dissaproved of. The exact same goes for stealing someone else's personal character design, I don't think it really matters if the character is from a popular series or not.

 

Before I go ahead, I'm going to have to agree that not everyone is as original as we believe to be. Similar ideas seem to hit a lot of people at a go, but personally, I think execution is pretty important and is what makes the difference.

Perhaps this is not the point Andatariel might have been trying to make but here's how I see it. When it comes to fan-tributes, usually, the general public (or the public it is directed at) are aware of who the creators of the characters are. However, even if the public are not aware, should they ask, the person who wrote/drew/came up with the fan-doll would ultimately say, "This is not my work."

Meaning, whatever they're doing, the intention of a fan-tribute is not to take credit when it is not theirs to take. This is the difference between a person who copy+pastes someone else's work, changes the name and takes credit as it being theirs.

It's like Terry Pratchett's reference to his Discworld. Some people will know, but some people won't know, that he does take inspiration from many sources such as the Hindu mythology, Egyption, etc. But if you didn't know and you asked, I doubt he's going to take credit for the world on the elephants on the turtle's back and that's why people aren't outraged about it, and won't be outraged about you for an Ox or Amen-Ra Lordi doll.

To boil it down, it's whether deceit or not is involved, imo.

Just a side note: In Japan, fan-tributes are much welcomed and are considered 'free' advertisement. In other countries, people like Joss Whedon (and many TV writers) are happy that fan-tribute exist and encourage it as well. Writers like Lynn Flewelling know of the existence of fanfiction, does not read it but is fine with it. My point is that while fans don't go out individually to ask for permission, there are original creators who give their blanket permission or just don't care. Of course, there are writers/creators who don't want people producing fan-tributes, but contrary to many assumptions, creators do and have given permission before.

I still believe there's a marked difference between doing something out of fondness of a character and 'ripping it off' by trying to play it as your own.

When Suuchan's opinion involves calling people hypocrites, it's definitely going to generate heated response or a heavy debate in response against said opinion.

 

100% Agree. Honestly, I can't see why an author would care about a fan art or fanfiction, as long as the person isn't trying to say it was their idea or profit (I do love doujin's but I don't think people should charge for them) and put disclaimers and what not.

I think the reason people feel the need to write fanfiction or fanarts its caused the work touched them on some level and they feel themselves connected or apart of it. Its just in human nature, that doesn't mean you are taking credit for orginating it. I bet almost everyone when they were small dreamed that they were Cinderella or some other fairy princess. Playing and imagining that you were Cinderella and making up your own story to go along with is not trying to steal it. Its only stealing if you are like "it was MY original idea".

Its actually amusing that some authors are shocked people would make fanart or fiction. How can millions of people read/see something and not be affected by it in some way enough to express it? I can see them not liking to read it/see it cause it could mess up their original vision but to deny people to do so is silly. Of course they are YOUR characters if YOU made them but people precieve and relate to things differently. The message you send out isn't necessarily the message the reciever is getting. ~Ah sorry, a little communication theory right there, lol its my major.

 

Since Anne Rice opposes fanfiction of any of her work, I imagine she'd explode and write another vampire book on the walls, if she heard of someone making a Lestat doll

I've seen a number of Harry Potter fandolls and it will be very interesting whether the fanfiction crackdown threatened by the recent Warner Brothers & J.K. Rowling vs RDR Books case would affect any future and current fandolls of Rowling's characters.

And this is where the Snucius love comes from

 

Paul Crees & Peter Coe (British art-doll makers) already did make one. (And dolls of other Rice characters, too.) Far from exploding, Rice collaborated with Crees & Coe on the project back in the late 1990s, and complimented the dolls in one of her recorded phone messages to fans; the message is posted on her website. http://www.annerice.com/ph19971012.htm

Of course that's a different beast from a fan-made tribute doll . . . but I kind of wonder whether Rice, a doll collector herself, would be as adamantly opposed to a doll made in honor of one of her characters as she is to fanfiction.

 

The issue with the RDR book was that it took large chunks of JKR's work and used them to attempt to make a profit. She was a fan of the Lexicon when it was a free internet work- they only took legal action against it when it looked like they were going to be making money off work copy pasta'ed from the books.

So someone making a Harry Potter doll for themselves? Probably okay. Someone mass producing 'Harry Potter' branded doll clothes? Then there's a problem.

I respect a creator when they say they are opposed to fan fiction of their works, especially if they do it in a respectful manner. But on the other hand, I've never really bought into the idea that fans should just shut up, lap up as much official merchandise as possible, without ever doing anything to express their fannishness that doesn't put money in the creator's pocket.

 

The issue was over whether the Lexicon in book form was fair use and transformative use of the original text. I believe it was, considering there are already a lot of for-profit works out there that are creeping in to JKR's £3M-a-week wages haul, and are about as transformative as a block of wood, but it's all over now anyway. (JKR claimed during the trial that she never used the Lexicon anyway and was only saying she approved of it to applaud the effort that had gone into making it...apparently she had always disliked it, principally )

Is a fandoll fair use? Probably. Is fanfiction fair use? Probably. Except when the fandolls and the fanfiction are used to portray things the author dislikes JKR has already stated she dislikes adult fanfiction based on her characters and despite her outing of Dumbledore, JKR has not been best pleased with archives of Harry Potter slashfic, some of which have been sent cease-and-desist notices. I don't know how far the cross over between Harry Potter fandom and BJD fandom stretches, but the 'JKR approved' embargo on slash could be a limiting factor for some fans.

As an author myself I would not be offended by fandolls and fanfiction based on my works, a disclaimer is enough to sort out who owns which copyright, and I'm sure that if pressed, the owner of a fandoll would say, "This doll is based on X from Y, written by Z." If you love a fandom enough to reproduce a character from that fandom, surely you would be prepared to share your love of that fandom and character whenever someone else asks? I don't know whether I'm just being naive, but I think that if someone is a true fan, they appreciate the amount of time and effort gone into creating their favourite characters and would want to give credit where it's due.

That's a good point actually. Also, I think authors that are opposed to fanfiction, are mainly opposed to the loss of control of their characters. A doll could be used in photostories, but only a certain amount of people will see BJD photostories, compared with the larger amount of people who could access a fanfiction archive.

 

Dude, I'd be really flattered is someone copied one of my dolls! I mean seriously, if someone really likes your dolls, or likes the mold and style of the doll, why dose it matter?
it's not like your a logo company and someone's stealing your rights (which private doll owners don't have) I mean if it really bothered someone so bad I guess they could tell the other person what they thought, but seriously, what can they do beyond that? Like I said, if there was another Farera on the foums I'd be perfectly happy wif dat!

 

Fandolls? Fantastic. Photostories? Super.

Fanfiction...now creeps into an area of "Danger Will Robinson." My agent hate hate hate with an undying hatred hates it. But I started out writing fanfic....

Other authors are absolutely convinced that the decline in book sales (and it is horrible, most of us are seeing our incomes dropped to half or less) is due to all the free fanfic on the web. I'm not convinced of that one: when you're digging through the couch cushions to put gas in the car, you aren't buying books.

But here is where the legal line gets drawn:

Fanfic for profit: BAD.

Very recently someone wrote, self-published, then SOLD VIA AMAZON her Star Wars book. Needless to say the hammer of LucasFilms descended.

If anyone made, say, an MMORPG of Twilight and started collecting money from it, that would be the cause for Lawyer Aggro.

A limited fullset of Vanyel WITHOUT licensing (and cut): Agent Apoplexy.

A line of MSD Herald uniforms for sale ditto: The Wrath of Russ.

And in general, if you ask someone's agent if you can do ANYTHING in a creator's world, the answer will always be NO, NOT WITHOUT A LICENSE. That's his job, to protect the interest of his client like a pitbull on crack.

MARGINAL:

Fanfic or photostory depicting things that are illegal or X-rated? If the Great White <s>Shark</s> Agent found out about it, you'd get a cease and deist letter pretty pronto. And possibly legal action if you didn't take it down. We're edging into the gray area here, and a case could be made that this sort of thing "tarnishes my reputation and leads to a diminution in sales." And not that long ago a new clause turned up in one of the contracts for Young Adult and Childrens' books that said in effect that the author had to refrain from any activity that could cause harm in sales or suffer loss of contract and be required to pay back the advance. (!) There was a huge outcry but...is this the wave of the future? No one knows.

GRAY AREA:

Nonprofit fanfic and photostories in general. Might be fair use. Might not. No one has ever tested it in a court of law. No one has ever had the money to, frankly. There is a problem with the stuff, in that the Originating Author can never, ever look at this stuff because of the potential for "you stole my idea" suits down the road.

PERSONAL FEELINGS:

Nothing gray here, authors/creators either hate seeing their characters depicted in any way, or they don't care, or they embrace it. And the form makes a difference too. Fandolls are probably the most accepted, because they are the most like fanart, just 3-D interpretations of a prose description. Photostories edge closer to the fanfic gray area. Marion Zimmer Bradley (before the infamous "you stole my idea" suit) embraced fanfic and would have enjoyed photostories but felt that the use of her characters in a game felt "like raep" to her.

So there is the actual sum up. YMMV. Don't ask me to look at photostories, I cannot and will not.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if someone's said something like this, but...

Although I only have one doll at the moment, I do admit that several of my doll concepts for what I want in the future have been based on what I've seen by doll owners already. (Like femme boys. I was ecstatic when I realized I wasn't wierd for liking that kind of stuff. )

But as I've been able to observe the goings-on of DoA, I've noticed that my ambitions can only be carried out to a point. I've seen customized dolls belonging to users here that would be PERFECT for some of the characters I plan on making a doll form for, but I realize that I have a lot to do to make what I've seen my own and respect the people who have gotten to these concepts before me.

 

I'm happy that you're flexible on this subject, but I think that the issue expressed here is that not everyone would like having a double of their doll somewhere. I'm not talking about the people who've ordered fullset dolls with the default wig, eyes, and faceup; I'm standing for those who have made it a priority to make sure that they've got an original, one-of-a-kind doll. Even I get a rush thinking about how there's nobody out there that has my girl Caffeine's face and wig (although butchered). And I did that little face myself much like other doll owners have put that kind of work into their doll, so it's like BJD collecting can also be a way to show off your creative ability.
And I--much like other doll owners--would be incredibly ticked if I found a carbon copy of Caffeine somewhere.

 

It's weird how quickly i can get into predicaments.

I had been planning on getting a MNF Miyu to be a character I have with her default faceup. Anyway, I recently discovered Frozen Wing's gorgeous CP Miyu boy mod, Sebastian. The thing that I immediately noticed that we were practically human-doll twins. (Ironic since he's a girl turned boy, and I'm a girl that get's mistaken for a 12 year old boy, haha) Obviously, it was just a total coincidence (a super cool one). Even the faceup and wig resembled my general expression and hair down to a T. Even my mother went all "OMG" when I showed her because the resemblence is really strong.

Anyway, now that I realize how much I look like the Miyu sculpt, I'm tempted to make my MNF into a mini-me. I never really noticed the resemblence becase it has a lot to do with the faceup. (Her default faceup is way shy and submissive-looking whereas Sebastian has this irritated, annoyed look) I kinda want to go ahead and make a mini-me using a MNF Miyu, but I'm afraid she or other people would think I copied Sebastian since they would end up having a similar wig, faceup, and style. The only differences would be that mine is a MNF, a girl, and not really a character.

Part of me wants to abandon the idea because I wouldn't want to offend her or invade her personal idea of her doll. But another part wants to go ahead with the idea. I'm really on the fence about it, but I've decided I will ask her permission if and when I decide to go through with the idea.

 

I can see it to an extent, getting upset because your doll has the same stock items as another doll is like getting mad because you wanted ice-cream and then someone else wanted it because they say you having some.
If its something you've spent a lot of time and energy on, like specially ordering specific items from multiple places to see someone copy the main idea is a bit flattering, espically if they make note of where they first saw the basic design. But if not, and they are claiming otherwise, or that you yourself are copying them it can be downright insulting.

 

There's a massive difference between someone copying/downloading/or otherwise using an artist's work in a way which could harm a global brand/a life's work, and/or cause major financial repercussions for the artist, and making a fan doll, writing some fanfiction or maybe cosplaying as your favourite anime character.

I work in the music industry and quite frankly as someone has seen years of her life's work, downloaded/stolen for free by thousands of people on PTP filesharing networks over the past two years, I can tell you from experience that sometimes when people copy/steal/re-interpret your work, despite the anguish, the misery and massive financial implications that causes you...you just have to get over it!

I have read most of this thread and it feels like its just descended into pages and pages of "I hate your favourite book/author" style rants.

What I thought this thread was for, and what I would actually really like to hear, is what people have thought felt about seeing a very interpretation of a doll to their own and how they got over it, because ultimately unless you are accuse someone of some form of intellectual and artistic property theft, you do have to let it go.

 

I would feel good that someone took an idea I used because they liked it. If I ever get a Super Dollfie, or Dollfie Dream, I'd probably use a look I've seen via the internet.

If they used it to sell something, then I'd protest.

And I'd feel equally angry if they got more compliments on theirs. But I can't hate them for it.

And who's to know if my idea is really the most original out there? Maybe someone did my idea before.

 

I would never steal story elements because at this pint back stories for my dolls and potential dolls are very vague, but I have seen peoples dolls that are freaking fabulous and said hey tan doll with blond hair that is really nifty then incorporated it into my doll ideas. There are some dolls I would love to flat out copy because they are amazing, but this is a very individualized hobby and I can see where people would not like it. Personally I would be flattered if anyone ever liked one of my dolls enough to copy it but I understand why other people don't.

As the leader of a GO for a Tom Cruise as Lestat minimee I am a little conflicted. I never really realized Anne Rice was so against fan tributes. I loved the character and the way Tom Cruise looked as Lestat so I just went with it.

 

I think if you like a dolls style, clothing, face up etc, you can try to emulate them... but never copy them exactly. For example, if you see a doll with a really awesome face-up and you know you want something like it then do ittt (maybe iffy if the same sculpt) but there are many face-up artists who would interpret the same request differently.
There are so many dolls of the same sculpt with hugely similar face-ups simply because it suits the scultp. There are loads of MNF shiwoos with huge black eyeliner and dark lips... and alot of them have black or brightly coloured mohair wigs! I get cofused sometimes thinking i'd seen it before when i haven't.

Sometimes it just happens, if the doll has the same eyes, hair, face-up, and outfits and such... but isn't based on a character (anime, film or book etc.) then it may be a bit suspicious!

With characters from books and film, even if copyrighted, they should expect people to do such works of fandom! If they get angry or upset over it then they are being unrealistic. To put a work of creativity in to the public eye is to create intrest and fans, if you do want people to write fanficiton, make dolls like them or dress like them then they shouldn't release said work of creativity! Fans like to do fandom!