When is it alright to accuse someone of copying your doll/someone else's doll?

I think this thread got torn out of proportions a bit, dragging authors and such in. I think the starter of this thread just meant "Your doll being copied by another person in the doll community".

It has happened to some of my dolls... It puts me in rather a peculiar situation. Because I really like the persons who 'copied' my doll, or rather, was inspired by the concept and gave that a twist.
Plus the Dutch doll community is a small one, and it's hard enough as it is not to get into an argument with someone, let alone blatantly accuse someone of copying. I'm even hesitant to write this here, allthough I don't mean anything mean or angry with this.
On one hand I think: "I'm happy I could help you get a doll with a character you really love", on the other hand I'm starting to get miffed if it starts happening to other dolls as well.

I, as a face-up artist myself, know that it happens a lot that someone sends you a picture of another doll, saying "I want this, but with pink lips".
In that case, there's a bit of responsibility in the artist in saying they will not copy entirely, but take the picture for inspiration only.
I do however not mind if someone asks me if they can send me a sleeping head and match it as closely as possible to the open eyed head they have at home, but then it's the same persons doll, so I feel no harm in that.

 

Well my personal thoughts about these kinds of things are that i don't really see a point of just 'copying' a doll, you must have liked it someways that you somehow really want it. It's the 'Intentional' bit not just the outcome look of the doll.

But, fair enough, copying the dolls means you have no respect to the owner

Face up, i just think some people needs to 'see' the face up first then send to customizations(I can't really imagine it first then just tell them, i have to at least use some photographs from elsewhere to guide them a bit but i never liked them to copy any of the face ups - and the face up artists dont usually do that anyway.) It's sort of like the default face up, you see you like and you then buy it. And so you can't really say it's a copying - but dressing the same way, having the same style and color wigs and even eyes is a bit too much of a copy.


I used to be accused of copying someone's doll but i never thought of that, it was just the same headmold and for the face up(the person customized her own faceup) - but i did the face up myself for the first time though it seemed that i had used similar colours (which are natural pink and grey) and probably purple eyes (which was the only one i had)... but when she first accused me of copying i was shocked that i never have that thought in my mind before(eventhough the person's doll was really amazing), to add this a bit more, the hair was a bit similar ( which was just no fringe -_-.. but the colour and style was completely different i'd say) but looking at the way of dressing up was a total difference, the hair colour and style wasnt even the same especially the personality, i was very proud when i first got him but when someone accused me of that i was pretty angry that i never thought of that and yet you have accused me... the situation made me felt terribly bad and horrified and paranoid that someone would probably accusing me of copying their dolls.

I mean, if the person's doll has odd-eyes with spikey green hair and red bangs with 7 piercings on the left and 9 on the right plus 3 more on the lips, 2 on the nose and 3 on the brows. And also has 3 scars on each cheekes. Adding the purple eye shadow on the right eye and blue on the left with luminous orange lips and black cheek and i got exactly the same one - well that's a copy then. (btw, this is just an example...)

you know what - copy or not, the person who really knows if it's a copy or not is you. and i'm glad and could bravely say that i've never copied anyone's dolls, they're what i've created though i have to take some ideas for the face up

accusing someone a copycat with a same sculpt, similar colour face up and no fringe is a bit too much for me.

 

This.. copy issue...
has boiled up among my bjd friends..again..lately.

For some reason everyone in our group has dolls that seem to stand out a lot.
[LOL probably has to do with the fact were all into uncommercial art and graphic design.. often pushing the boundaries of whats normal to create unique stuff o---o"]

One of my friends had a fan of one of her dolls telling her she bought the same mold,
and was working on copying her dolls faceup.
And ..was actually remaking him o---o.

Now..my friend got.. a bit.. angry/frustrated/upset.

The fan then told her that she would of course change his name and his character from hers.
But.. he would still look like her doll.

I don't think she got the point that, original character bjd's.. original characters over all..
are really yours. That's why they are called original.

If someone copies it ...so it looks the same..
it no longer feels like it's your own little thing.

And i think that's the problem i and most of my friends have with people mimicking their dolls. And I'm disappointed to say..just as the fan.. some people don't understand that.
And when you asked them not to.. often don't accept that and think your a uptight bitchy person.
And then your suddenly accused of accusing them of stealing your doll concept <___>

 

lol i could totally understand that Naiara, even if i didn't do the face up myself but if someone has the doll that could probably say - exactly the same as my dolls - i'll be sort of upset too

I'd say copying dolls could be really thoughtless and disrespect to the dolls(and the owner) you're copying, so having them as your guidelines idea - i don't think that's wrong but haveing originalities in your own dolls makes them 'yours' more

you know, some people accusing other people of copying their dolls just because they bought the same headmold with the same face up! (which is the default face up too!) Some even worse, they accusing other people of copying their dolls just - purely - because they bought the same sculpt after them -_- how ridiculous is that.... but well, in some places the community is quite small and many people knows each other.... but some people really do think that they're so fabb that the person who buys the same head sculpt is a copycat. Now, that is wrong, at least in my opinion. I say this because i've seen some people actually said that and i cannot believe how arrogant and prejudice they were.

 

I got into BJDs because I saw one I liked, found out more about them, and wanted one... (well, one at first... now I want like 30... but anyways...)

Obviously you see something you like first. I liked Iplehouse's Tatiana. When I get her, I will probably keep her close to default. I like the face-up, eyes, wig, clothes, etc... am I copying Iplehouse? No. Duh.

Now some people here have VERY distinct dolls. This includes face-ups, mods, and all kinds of custom work. YOU KNOW THAT DOLL (probably by name and the owners name). There's a doll on here that's whole body is painted like a serpent. THAT is distinct. Is every slinky doll a copy? No. If someone paints there doll completely green w/scales, is that a copy? Yes.

If your doll wears jeans, a band t-shirt, and a hoodie and you notice someone with the same sculpt in a band t-shirt, jeans, and a hoodie... they are not copying, you are not original. Sorry. It's not a bad thing or insult... it's just common.

If one person mods their doll with a toothbrush sticking out of their forehead, and then 3 more pop up with dental products modded to their face plates, then yeah, they're copying.

I think it's a pretty black and white distinctive line. You can't copy something that is common. It's common because LOTS of people do it. How many Lolita dolls look similar? How many Vampires look alike? BUT, something that is TRULY stylized, unique, or otherwise custom... and you KNOW it looks like theirs... yeah, it's copied...

BUT COPYING IS OK! Just don't take credit for an original idea that's not your own. If someone copied you... deal. You have the Original. You rule! When I get Tatiana... I'm not gonna pretend I poured over how to style her for months... I liked her on the website, I kept her that way. I will still love her all the same. THAT is the way I see her and I want her.

(this is all... IMHO)

-LW

 

Wow, I must admit, I'm kinda blown away by this topic. I had no idea people felt that it was wrong to dress, wig, eye, and face-up the same--to "copy." Is this just common on this forum, or is that something that is common in meet-ups and such too? I didn't realise that people's goal was to make a doll that is unique, rather than making a doll that is really lovely or really fits a personality they've chosen.

I don't have a doll yet, I'm still trying to convince myself that I deserve a "gift" of this price range (instead of getting a new sofa, computer, wii for the kids, etc). But I've been scouring this forum for ideas, and keeping print-outs of really good face-ups and wigs and stuff.

It's particularly an issue, I would think, when we're talking about a really common/popular mold. I was thinking of getting myself a Bobobie/Angel Region Sprite Girl as a nice "starter doll." Is "being unique" a really big deal with even the common doll molds?

 

While I think I may have seen that particular doll only once and don't really remember the sculpt, I do have to ask, so no other person out there can originally come up with their own idea for a dragon doll? Or a reptillian Demon doll? Or a mermaid morphed into human doll? I'm just saying, there are SO many reasons why someone might have a doll completely green with scales and that does not necessarily make it a copy. Okay, maybe it might be a copy, you never know....it's just a little hard to say only that one person who's doll you happened to see first is the most original out there.

Of course, I am a little hypocritical myself ( and I realize this ) as I can't say how irritated I am with Soom for putting out so many hooved dolls and all these gray resined boys coming out...haha, no I don't think any of these companies copied ME, but I do find it rather annoying that others may think I copied them when I can assure you I did no such thing. Yes I do know how it feels to be a little overprotective of my ideas, trying to preserve them and when I see things similar to them I do rant and bitch and whine-in the privacy of my own head. Unless there is a solid proof, tiny details such as a obscure histories and small physical quirks and personality traits that can be proven as copied as well then it's hard to bring up a good argument. I certainly don't agree with copying another person's hard work and ideas and I do accept that random similarities can be frustrating, just wanted to point out that other people can still be original to themselves, even if the idea isn't original to others.

And Natsunekko, if creating an original doll isn't on your high priority list, then you don't have to worry about it. Some people are in this hobby to create the most unique doll possible, and some aren't. It's all up to the individual. If you feel that because your first doll will be more common and this making her more original isn't a big deal then that's perfectly fine. For others such as myself however, the more common my doll is, such as my Dream of Doll Kirill and Ivan, as I see them quite often it's really important to me to work on them as much as I can so they don't blend in with others.

 

you have made me think it's true actually, that now people are trying to make their dolls unique rather than making them the loving ones - now it could sometimes seems like a competition.

but then again, some people get sensitive about that and few get overly sensitive. i don't agree copying dolls since this depends on the owner you've copied and if they feel sensitive about it so that's no good. but i can see that some people wanted the dolls just like that and they probably have the same/similar ideal dolls - and this could make it an issue since A LOT of people gets sensitive with this.

honestly, do what ever you like, giving love to them is the most important i suppose. For me, it's better if you copied someone else's doll but you have paid attention and giving love and care them more than the one you've copied. (erm i mean more than the owner of the doll you've copied that probably hadn't given attention to them at all...)

 

It's a picky subject.... I was recently selling one of my dolls, and I like to think while he is not totally "OMG OUTHERE" in terms of uniqness, he is one of the less common molds (soom namu) and out of those, he doesn't pop out, but he certainly is the only one of his kind I have seen. In the end I took him down, and decided to keep him because everyone that was interested in buying him wanted to buy him as "is". Which would've ment if I had ever decided to recreate him, there would already be a "copy" out there. One of the sellers started to enquire about recreating him, and it made me uncomfortable because it'll be weird looking out and seeing Danny out there as someone..well else!

I am however, re-evaluating my collection and trying to "weird" everyone up - cos, frankly, I am sick of looking at dolls in jeans and t-shirts. Not just in my collection, but on the forums too. I do not doubt with the fullness of time I will probably get sick of looking at the Soom Monthly dolls and all the gothic demons (example) that will be popping up. But again, this isn't copying. This is just me re-evaluating what I am interested in seeing. Certain dolls lend themselves to certain looks, so it is difficult to draw the line. The only time you can be sure of copying, is when a doll has the exact same face up, outfit, wig, eyes and you have been asked for these specs. Otherwise, you might just be stumbling across another El (Example) kitted out from stuff from dollmore.

 

I think you're absolutely right InkyBear. I was just using that as one example that sticks out in my head... I can think of a bunch on here now that, to me, seem truly original (see candygears' doll "Mr. Have"). I was just using the serpent one as an example (albeit a vague one now in retrospect). But you're right... not every 'dragon' or 'mermaid' shoudl be considered a copy. But I was basically saying, if someone painted their dolls just that way, with the intention of it being the same creature, then yeah, it's copied. But elborating off of an idea, or taking it to the next level, or someplace completely different shouldn't be critisized.

But even so... my main point was... COPYING IS NOT A CRIME. You put your stuff out there, if someone likes it enough, why can't they have it too? If it's all yours, and it's a secret, don't post photos. BUT, it's also not cool to take ideas and claim they are original or your own. Let people know where you got the inspiration from. If it inspired you, maybe it will inspire others too!

BUT, yes, having something similar (like your example) is completely different than blatantly copied.

Well said! Thanks for pointing that out (and helping me to elborate more). I was kinda ranty before... lol.


-LW

 

I have to say I have to agree with a lot of people on here. Similar dolls and dolls inspired by someone else's (Or maybe a mod inspired someone to mod theirs but the idea was already there) doesn't seem a huge deal to me. There are plenty of El's in black wigs, green eyes and black jeans out there as well as my own. Are they copying? As much as I'm copying them.

However if my El had distinctive body blushing and tattoos and someone copied those exactly? I'd be a little miffed. I choose this example because I have exactly that planed for my boy and I put a lot of effort into creating his tattoos.

Of course now to bring up the idea of copying is not a crime. Well yes and no. If someone was to show up where I work dressed exactly like me? Aside from amusing them of having no fashion sense I wouldn't care. But dolls get into being art and that opens a whole new can of worms. Marks, tattoos, scars and ect created just for one doll and then painted on them as an example lets say an over the eye tattoo in some crazy eye shape with strange letters around it! So if someone else had a doll with that same mark? Well we could get into copying art then.

However if I have a doll with some crazy over eye marking and someone saw it and said "Wow that does look good" and goes out and makes up their own and paints in on their doll? Kosher. This is all IMO of course but as I see it people can't help being inspired by something that inspires them. They can help out right ripping off someone else idea.

 

Something that your could count as copying is if you had a doll that had burn scars,dyed black or some weird color, tail made of resin or something hard like that, and custom eye's you made your self (IE: pink and green or brown, in some weird design that no other eye maker has.) And you see someone else with a doll just like yours, then you can count it as copying. Because you probably did alot of the mods your self and no company has one like it.
But something like the person has the same mold of doll as you with, brown hair in the same wig style, and blue eye's, All of it being brought from a maker. then you can't scream copy. It's going to happen.
But i have to also say some people will scream copy then a one in a million fluke happens, Like you have a A.O.D wang zi who's name is Andrew, and you see someone that has the same doll mold with the same name, but maybe not the same looks.
Like i saw someone else on the forms has a A.O.D rao named kyoko.
I'm getting one and her name will be kyoko too, but her full name is Kyoko eve Kitamura.
She is based off of a rpg character I've had for a long time. From when i was like 13.
But the mold and first name are the only things they have in comon,
As my kyoko has a split personalty, white hair and light aqua or red eye's, And is a white wolf demon. The other one has blond hair and green eye's, and is human. (i think)
Stuff will happen, you have to get over it.

 

This is still hard to pinpoint though. I've never actually seen this green doll with scales, but I have a character that is like that in her legs and arms - she's a dragon as well. If I had never known this doll existed (which is a moot point now) and made her in doll form, I wouldn't be copying. Simply a coincidence.

Most ideas aren't original, and just because someone has done something similar to something that has already been done doesn't make it a copy. Usually copies are very obvious. Sometimes it's just coincidence - having the same idea.

The hobby is too big to go around saying things are 'copied' when it is a very broad idea.

I think I see what you mean, and I know you're not saying copies are necessarily bad, but you're not leaving room for 'coincidences'. Not everyone in the hobby knows everyone's dolls or have seen all the modifications that're out there.

 

That's always the risk.

When I see a doll I am blown away by, I rule out buying that sculpt for myself, maybe not for all time, but certainly for the foreseeable future. I was set on buying a CP Shiwoo after seeing Xi-Feng's Ilu, but I gradually realised I liked Shiwoos because I liked Ilu and I wouldn't really know what to do with a Shiwoo if I had one. So I content myself with looking at pictures of him and following his story, which is infinitely more satisfying to me than having an Ilu-wannabe on my shoulder. The same goes for Madam Maumau's Sard, Lilu. Sards are beautiful, but MMM's incubus is my absolute favourite out of all of them. If I had a Sard of my own he wouldn't be as good in comparison.

Not everyone sees things the way I do, they think if they recreate the exact look of the doll they fell in love with then everything will be fantastic; not only will they have a beautiful doll, but that doll will be instantly popular because it already resembles a popular doll... It is very sad that some people don't have an original thought in their heads.

As for my first comment; "that's always the risk..." well it is. As soon as you put something into the public realm, it is open for the public to pass judgement on, to love, to hate, to admire, to criticise. If someone desires your doll that much, there is always the risk they will borrow too heavily from your original work...and it's a risk no one can escape from. There could be someone out there who adores one of my dolls, but I most likely would never know because my dolls are not Big Name Dolls. It's only if a doll is well known that accusations of copying become quite dangerous because people can be run out of the community based on one of these accusations since we all feel strongly about artistic integrity and originality and most of us will have seen one or more of these Big Name Dolls in our time here. It would be easy to spot a distinctive copy like a Ilu-wannabe or a Lilu-wannabe or a copy of Ragdoll's Scene Shushu, Clementine. They have very distinctive looks, so someone making a straight-copy will be found out straightaway.

Most ideas are not original...but when there are far too many similarities to be a coincidence, I think it is safe to say there is copying going on. Taking an influence here and there is not forbidden and all great artists do this, but taking the exact look off a doll and transplanting it on to your own is not right.

 

Great point Sonja! I guess I shut off the coincidence realm when I started talking strictly about copying... but I do agree with what you're saying. It is a broad hobby with lots of ideas. I doubt that much is 100% original. Obviously, a person is inspired by something... if that leads you to create it it, is that a copy or working off inspiration? Can people be inspired by the same thing and come up with the same doll? I'm sure!

Thanks for elaborating... you bring up a very valid point...

 

I don't know how and why, but a friend of mine and me have similar ideas. we often realize when we talk about it that we have the same plans. I sometimes feel bad about it since I fear it might look like copiing, but on the other side we can give each other tipps and tricks and that has been very helpful

 

I think that if someone made a doll who looked exactly like mine, and even admitted they intended to copy my doll, but made that doll into a different character than my doll (while still looking exactly the same), I would be more insulted that if they tried to copy everything, including the character. My dolls are all going to be based on my own original characters, and for most of them they have a signature look. Deanna dresses like a hippie, Mal has a very particular hairstyle (which is going to be a NIGHTMARE to commission as a wig), Kira has her tattoos... I wouldn't mind if someone took Tohru's wig and eyes and faceup and then dressed her as a lolita and named her Miffy. That would be within the realm of acceptable "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" territory to me. That just compliments my choice of the physical aspect of my character, but has nothing to do with her personality. But if you start buying her the same clothes as me and tell me she's also the lead singer in a rock band and so on, I'm gonna get pissed at you. That's like creating a Roxas doll, and saying he has the same kind of personality, but naming him Joe and saying he lives in Chicago. Just changing the superficial aspects of the character doesn't even remotely make it your own. You're still stealing my (or someone else's) idea. Now, if I were a famous author and my characters were common knowledge, THEN I wouldn't mind someone having a doll that was based on my character. I wouldn't be able to prevent or probably even know about it, after all, so no use worrying. But as long as my characters exist only in my head and in their stories on my hard drive, trying to copy them is a capital offense against me.

So I guess my point is, it's the really unique aspects of my dolls that would bother me about someone else copying. If someone copied Kira's tattoos (which have deep personal meaning to her character), I would be livid, as much as someone trying to copy my own tattoo, which is a design I created myself. There are only so many wigs and eyes and sculpts in the world, so those aren't worth worrying about. It's the style of clothing (not the actual clothes, but the combination of them) and the personality of the doll that's (usually) original.

 

I think I have a unique, though ordinary doll. To me he feels like a fairly unique creation, but he has many ordinary traits. It&#8217;s not rare to see similar things in other people&#8217;s dolls.

If someone gives his/her doll a black eye, I&#8217;d love to see other people&#8217;s take on that as there are many different types and stages of black eye. If it would be the left eye that is hurt, it would be like my boy Derrick, but if a right handed person hits you in the face, it&#8217;s your left eye that gets hurt.

If someone puts cuts and bruises on his/her doll, I hope they had fun. I had fun roughing up Derrick.

If someone blushes the hands of his/her doll to make it look like it took a fall and scraped the palms of the hands on a rough street surface, I&#8217;d like to see that. I love realistic body blushing/bruising.

If someone gives his/her doll a split lip (aqquired during a fight, not a birth defect), I&#8217;d love to see how other people do that. If it would be on the lower lip on the left side, it would be like the black eye a logical spot if the character got into a fight with a right handed person.

If someone puts an Elfdoll Sooah head on a CP delf boy body, go ahead. I&#8217;m not the first person to do a girl to boy switch with an Elfdoll head nor am I the first to put an Elfdoll head on a CP body. I&#8217;d love to see more Sooah boys.

If someone gives his/her doll an X-shaped scar on the back of the left hand, that would be the same as with my Derrick, but I&#8217;m sure there were dolls with X-shaped scars on their hands before I got my boy. I got that idea from somewhere, although I can&#8217;t consciously remember where.

If someone keeps the Sooah default wig on their Sooah head, they&#8217;d do the same thing I did, but the default wig is not rare and it&#8217;s actually a nice wig.

If someone let his/her boy doll wear distressed jeans, that person is being fashionable.

If someone names his/her boy Derrick, that person picked a very nice name.

If someone says that his/her doll&#8217;s theme song is &#8220;Lost in America&#8221; by Alice Cooper, that person picked a nice song.

If someone gives his/her doll an earring made of feathers, cool. Feathers are nice material to make accessories off.

If someone takes several things of the above, have fun mixing and matching. That person wouldn&#8217;t be the first to pick from things others do and be inspired by it.

If someone takes all of the above, I&#8217;d scratch the back of my head. I&#8217;d think that person copied me, but as long as that person is not going around suggesting I copied said person&#8217;s doll and tells me to stop, I&#8217;d just think that person is unoriginal and needs to get some creative juices of his/her own.
It would be annoying to see legions of Sooah boys named Derrick with default wigs and cuts and bruises all dancing to &#8220;Lost in America&#8221;, but that does not change I had fun creating my Derrick. Not that I&#8217;m insensitive to what other people think, but I&#8217;m pretty confident in the value my dolls have in my eyes. If someone does something similar and makes my creations less spectacular to other people, I will still put how I regard my dolls above how special other people think my dolls are. I won&#8217;t go as far as being against other people buying certain molds or giving their dolls certain names/body blushings/face-ups to protect my doll concepts.

A concept is not one or two things you need to take in order to copy it. If it is a complex concept, which most dolls are IMHO, you need to take a lot. One person will say it&#8217;s a copy sooner than another. It&#8217;s not really a check list you can tick off and by reaching X amount of checked points it&#8217;s a copy.
Not all items on the above list are equally special or ordinary. Taking a uniquely designed tattoo is closer to copying than a heart shaped tattoo or buying the same mold that is freely available for example. I guess it has to be decided on a case to case basis.

 

there are so many BJD's, I think there even is a change that you copy by accident.
you have a idea for the mold you want to buy, and scrolling trough the gallery you see something so similair that it could have been your own.
that happend to me a few times, of course I changed the idea a bit after that.
but I think most of the time you can't be shure that you are being copied.
I think if someone really wants to copy your doll it is a compliment.
if you want your doll not to be copied, the best thing to do is not put any pictures online XD
also, in this world it is difficoult to stay original...at least I think.