When is it alright to accuse someone of copying your doll/someone else's doll?

I think as a starting point most of us "copy" to a certain extent. I buy blank dolls and do the face-ups myself. I usually try to replicate a look I've seen (the VZ?Haute Doll Halloween Skiya for instance or a company face-up that I can't afford) because I don't know the doll very well. During the short time I've owned them, my dolls are evolving personalities and so their next face-ups will probably be more original.

I guess what you are asking about is when someone has done a good deal of modding, handmade wigs, costumes and maybe even eyes for their doll? Then they have invested a great deal of originality into something that is basically always the creation of the original sculptor. I see these dolls as a half way house for most people to find their creativity and artistic streak and maybe they will go on to create dolls of their own from scratch (some of us already do, although not from resin in my case, I would be a lot more fierce if someone copied them!) or paint, write make films whatever... those later things are where you are being more original, where we cross over into the realms of copyright and intellectual property.

IMHO with these BJDs, the greatest kudos for creativity and originality should always be reserved for the actual sculptor of your doll, there's the artist! The rest of us are just colouring in these incredibly beautiful sketches, sometimes with great skill and passion... but let's leave the name calling!

 

I see. It may mean no harm to you but it's definitely offensive when someone takes something you worked so hard on without so much as a blink of an eye. I suppose you'd have a better understanding of it if you were into the character aspect of the hobby (and just plain writing in general, since that's where a lot of people's characters do come from first), but it isn't just restricted to that anyway. I don't think it matters what angle of the hobby you come from, there are lines that can and cannot be crossed, the differences between inspiration and just plain biting and whether or not you are a character person or a straight up fashion doll person, a degree of respect that needs to be heeded. If money's being earned where it shouldn't, all the worse, but if it just isn't there, that doesn't make it any less offensive.

And by 'being incapable of making anything for themselves' I definitely just meant the creative aspect, not what skills one would have to execute certain things. "If I can't write a story, I'll just take someone else's! If I can't come up with a clothing design, then I'll just take someone else's!" That's really what I meant. You can enjoy a story without taking it for your own, right?

 

I customize everything. I do the aesthetics myself, and while I buy casual clothes from places like Dollmore, the fantasy and historic outfits that matter I make myself as well, from scratch. If anyone is skilled enough to precisely copy my dolls, they are probably talented enough to come up with their own original designs, so that I'm not worried about. A serious craftsman wouldn't stoop to copying, and an unskilled one is no competition. Now, if someone plagiarized my story - sincerest form of flattery my a$$, I'd come after them with all the might of the US copyright law.

 

This is such a highly debated issue on so many other boards....and almost always boils down to the fact that the parties involved should do the right thing. As an artist, I 've had the misfortune of being plagiarized on a professional level, involving lawsuits and loads of discussions on copyright law. As far as these dolls go, we'd be hard pressed to have an actual claim, but this doesn't erase the annoyance factor. Pointing fingers generally leads to a lot of headaches and one must be prepared for that before getting riled up and letting the words fly. Its my opinion that the matter be handled as delicately as possible, since a big debate (even if it is totally founded) just continues the mental fatigue. As someone who is not afraid of confrontation (to put it mildly) I think taking care of a matter quietly always benefits, then your not constantly updating the curious, keeping that matter fresh in your mind.

 

I pretty much agree with Devil's Trill on this. When someone invests a lot of time and effort into making their doll into their original character (usually one that they've already spent a lot of time writing about) And someone nonchalantly waltzes up and copies it all... yeah that's just wrong. Sure there may not be physical money at stake, but the copier would basically be smacking them in the face.
Being a copycat has been a huge no-no since grade school.


Though I think calling someone out as a copier, is a gray area. With the somewhat limited pool of resources some dolls will just end up looking alike. There are tons of dolls in similar styles, but if two dolls of the same mold popped up with the same exact eyes, wig, clothing, back story, name, and ect. Yes that would be downright fishy.

There are dolls I like for the mold and it potential to become my character and dolls I like for the character the owner has created with it. When I consider buying a doll, I don’t buy the ones I only like for the character the other has made with it.

I spend time creating my dolls. I look a lot at molds, eyes, and wigs picking them out. I spend thought and energy working on their story. Sure, I could go find a doll that looks cool and find out his backstory, what company the mold, eyes, wig, and clothing is and spend much less time and effort. And all I would end up with is a doppelgänger.

 

If I'm understanding the question of this topic correctly, the issue isn't "Is it okay to copy someone else's doll?" (which is a broad moral question) but "When is it okay to accuse someone of copying your (or someone else's) doll?", which is a much narrower and more specific issue.

Now, I'm not going to take a heavy pro-copying stance here, so you can relax. I personally hate having a doll that looks like everyone else's, which is why I modify all my dolls in some way, even those I buy off store shelves. I would never go out of my way to copy someone else's doll, though I have to confess I might see something I like, an element of a face-up or wig style, and adapt it for my own use on my own doll. But that's not the point of the discussion.

I think you have to be very, very careful when you accuse someone of "copying" your doll. It is never appropriate, IMNSHO, to openly accuse someone of copying someone else's doll--that is not your right or your place. That's between other doll owners who are not you. I would even hesitate to "rat out" someone you suspected of copying a doll from someone you know; it sounds mean to say this, but frankly, for all you know, your friend could've been the one "inspired" by the person you throught ripped off your friend's doll design! And don't tell me that could never happen. It can. It has.

The most frustrating thing, I guess, is that if someone copies a doll you've designed, you don't have a whole lot of legal recourse. You can't sue someone for wearing the same dress to a party, and you can't sue someone for making a doll that looks suspiciously like the one you spent months designing. Even Mattel can't sue companies who make cheap knockoffs of the Plastic Princess herself, and Mattel has copyrights and registered trademarks! Not many doll owners have papers filed with the Library of Congress copyrighting their dolls' character.

So what can you do? If someone makes a doll that looks a little too much like your own, you can write the person, privately, and let them know that while you're flattered that they liked the look of your doll so much they felt driven to replicate it, you're not exactly comfortable with a "clone" of your doll being offered up as someone else's exclusive creation. You can hope that said individual has the common decency to apologize and alter their doll's appearance and character sufficiently to make it their own. If all else fails, you can at least take some scant comfort that you were sufficiently cool for someone to want to emulate you. No, that last option isn't satisfactory, but sometimes it's all you can get. Most important of all, you can't let imitators spoil the experience for you. You thought of it first. The phrase "often imitated but never duplicated" comes to mind. Sometimes that's all you can get. It's not fair, but that's how it is.

 

After some consideration, I think that my perspective on this is affected by a few things:
1) I've never had the experience of someone outright copying my doll
2) I design knitting patterns, so I'm used to encouraging people to copy things I've made
3) I'm interested in BJD's from a more "fashion doll" perspective, so I'm thinking my dolls' looks will, perhaps, be less 'unique' than some of the sci-fi/ steampunk/ fantasy/ etc. -inspired dolls I've seen on here.
4) My doll stories are (so far) so mundane as to pretty much only include nationality/country of origin, name, current occupation, & a brief idea of how they 'know' each-other.
5) Even when I do like someone else's doll/idea quite a lot, I can see several changes I can/would want to make that would make it not-really-identical.

That said, it seems like the business of ripping off another person's doll to the 'T' seems like an issue of something like "professional courtesy" or mutual respect between artists, or something along those lines. The thing is, though, (as I mentioned before) not everyone thinks about BJD's quite that way, so they may genuinely not see an issue w/ "photocopying" someone's doll in that way.

In the end, I think that if I saw someone copying one of my dolls in a way that was uncomfortably identical for me, I'd probably PM them & say something like, "I like your style! I saw your doll, she looks a lot like mine, have you seen her?" and maybe from there actually ask where they got the source material/inspiration for their style. Depending on how that went, I'd likely ask them to make some changes, or at least make sure to credit my doll as the inspiration.

 

1) Consider yourself lucky.
2) I don't think giving out usable patterns constitutes as letting people copy so much as letting people use a resource

Of course there's always degree of unoriginality and typicality, so yes, we're bound to see a great number of red haired, blue eyed dolls wearing steampunk and those are the kind of similarities I personally just shrug off. It comes down to the smaller details, the bigger picture. Seeing a doll wearing the same necklace isn't something to punch someone through the internet over for example, so things like similar taste in clothing style and that being the only similarity, I wouldn't be up in arms about.

Of course there were always be people that thinks that it's okay to bite off people's work. Until you tell them otherwise. Think of plagiarizing in unversity. You can ask them the same questions you initially asked in this thread and see how that goes.

Though again, that isn't the question of this thread.

In the end though, you would call someone out on a doll that's uncomfortably similar to yours? Suddenly you agree?

 

Well, I'm quite 100% in agreement with Trill here. I put a hell of a lot of time, love, and effort into my characters, and I'm fairly sure nobody is going to 'coincidentally' come up with the same backstories and cookups as me. They're really personal, and while I understand that we each have a limited pool to draw items from for wigs, eyes, etc.... A vast majority of the same things in combination makes for a fishy fishy suspicion. If someone trods on my stories though, I'm likely to kick some butt. Honestly, even if only the physical appearance of the doll was the same, I'd be pretty wary. It's definitely NOT okay with me.

It'd probably be a fruitless endeavor though, to approach them, as people who stoop to such levels are likely not to give a damn.

It hurts though, it really does. Maybe people who aren't artists or don't invest such feelings into their dolls won't understand. But it stings like a papercut. Painful, even if the offense isn't measureably huge by law or other sanctioned methods.

That's why I never really post any of my personal works like that online. I have to know people before I tell them anything of my characters. An approval of sorts >u>;;;

 

DT: Well, this is obviously a complex issue, no? Like I said, the concepts for my dolls (to date) aren't super-unique, so if someone copied one of them, I wouldn't feel so much like someone was ripping off something I'd put my & soul into.

However, I think that if I did have a doll w/a very specialised backstory, mods, very unique faceup, & literally OOAK costume, then I saw something uncomfortably similar, then yeah I'd probably (gently) let that person know that I noticed & at least request credit as my doll being the "inspiration doll".

Ultimately, though, I can't say how it would affect me if this happened. On the one hand, like I said, I can understand how some people view this as a major faux pas. On the other hand, I'm still coming at the hobby from a very "fashion doll" perspective, & I don't know how much I'd worry about it. But, to each their own.

I think the main thing is to remember that if you see someone who has done this, then remember that they might not have the same perspective on the situation as you do, & that you'll get further if your initial contact on it doesn't seem like an aggressive attack/accusation, though that might be how you feel.

 

Gosh- unless someone had taken a backstory and an appearance in combination word for word and colour for colour, I couldn't ever accuse someone of copying my doll! I mean, my gang is very normal looking (they're supposed to be school kids) so I don't know that someone wouldn't coincidentally just have the same look for the same sculpt. But I have to say, even if I didn't actually accuse someone who's doll looked suspiciously like mine, I'd still be generally pissed (privately of course, and neither the other owner nor anyone else would ever know.) because we all I think, like to believe that our special little resin boy or girl is unique. However, I might be utterly discomfited, but I still wouldn't be able to accuse someone of something like that unless there was absolute obvious and irrefutable proof. Anything less is highly intangible, and like to be a coincidence, or just plain hurtful for the owner(s) in question.

 

I haven't read all of the posts yet, so if this has been brought up before, I'm sorry for the repeat. I am a long time artist, and when I was at university, I took several classes in art oriented business, which included copyrights in the artistic world, so I do have some understanding about it. My take on it is this:
First of all, NO ONE has a copyright on a doll except the sculptor or the company that created the doll/mould. Therefore, no one who purchases that particular doll sculpt has any exclusivity to it. The same goes for a character profile based on an anime character or what not. That profile belongs to the person who wrote the charater/drew the character, etc, and even then, unless it is copyrighted, anyone else can legally copy it! A modded doll is still a copyrighted scuplt or mould from who ever created it in the first place. Period. (Actually, modding a copyrighted doll, is illegal, but that's a whole other discussion! ) Getting upset or offended by someone else copying your doll is a waste of energy and time that could be spent on enjoying you doll and hobby. Let BJDs be a positive thing in your life. If it becomes a source of stress or negative feelings, etc, than it is no longer a good thing; time to back down. A hobby is meant to be a positive influence on ourselves. If it is otherwise, maybe it's time to rethink it out. In the art world, style and technique, etc, is mostly repeated. I can look at most art, and give you a good guess at who has influenced that artist. The past influences the future, and this is very evident in the arts. We all build on one anothers's ideas. If someone copies my doll, style , or whatever, I don't waste my time or energy on it. Imatation really is a form of flattery; otherwise, why would that person put so much effort into it? They probably want to have some of that beauty/creativity in their life too. Why not let them enjoy it? If this is offensive, don't post your pictures! Don't we post our dolls to share our ideas and enjoyment with others? If not, than why does DOA even Exist? We need to relax a bit!

 

... I'm sorry that's completely incorrect. http://www.whatiscopyright.org/

 

You should look up copyrights for artwork, like sculpture and painting. It's not the same.

 

That's a rather acute stance you have there, coinnle, and while I respect it, I must also respectfully disagree. It sounds like you've never had your work stolen before, to which I wish it never happens. It's a horrible thing.

Art-Oriented business or not. Business is business, and I don't see any successful corporation out there that wouldn't try their damndest to protect what is theirs, if you want to talk in the professional sense. Would Apple let anyone else near their designs if they could help it? No. They only give up when they can't do anything about it. Besides, professional artists will cite their influences. They do. I am under the impression that a person copying/stealing a character in its entirety is not admitting to the act, correct? Also, in the wider scheme of things, successful businesses try to sell themselves by making their products unique, no?

I willfully do not understand you. If you are an artist, would you let someone copy exactly your greatest masterpiece without a fight? Influence is one thing. Duplicate is another.

More directly, if I suddenly dropped something I loved with all my soul just because of some other person's actions, I wouldn't love it very much at all. I also believe that since these dolls and characters are my OWN fabrications, why the hell should I give up the fight to have them rightfully known as my own, in the case of a copycat? Why would I let the copycat stand in my place, without any fight at all? I've worked years on my creations. If I could stand by and do nothing, watching in a daze with no fire. Would those years have meant anything to me at all?

 

Actually, it is. The basis of that linked page was taken from the Berne Convention, which protects literary AND artistic property. The page covers a broad subject, but it does not exclude artistic works.

And anyway, doll copyright is kind of a hazy subject. Owner dolls are essentially derivative works of the doll company's original work. Considering the nature of the hobby, I think it's safe to assume that doll companies are aware of what their products are being used for, they're created and sold for their customizability, right? I think we're not doing anything to harm the company's copyright by customizing or modding, as the dolls are sold for this purpose, this purpose is universally understood throughout the hobby, and the companies are the ones making the profit, not us.

I believe it's right to say that there are rights owed to both the company for their creation as well as to the owner for their derivative work. Derivative works can be copyrighted so long as they have an originality of their own.

And I just want to point out that is untrue -- under the Berne Convention, a piece of work is copyrighted the moment it is put down in a tangible form. Registering that copyright is taking an extra step, but even if you don't do that, once an original idea is put down into writing or drawing or what have you, it is copyright to you no matter what.

Alllll that said, I think that it's perfectly within a person's rights to confront a person for copying their doll if that doll represents the owner's original character. Characters are original creative work no matter their form, whether they be written, drawn, or put into three-dimensional form.

 

I'm not going to get bent out of shape over similarity in appearance, as there can be a lot of unintentional similarities. However, if the appearance was the same and the story was the same, I like many others, would be really upset about it. When you put a lot of effort, time, and creativity into something, you don't want someone else stealing it and taking the credit. Even though there is no money involved in this scenario, it's still not okay. That's never happened to me, but if it did I wouldn't make a public fuss about it, but I would PM the person and ask what the heck was going on. The development of characters is my main creative outlet within the hobby, and I wouldn't take kindly to someone trodding all over that. Being inspired by someone else's work is one thing -- nothing exists in a vacuum, and we get inspiration from the things around us both consciously and unconsciously, but to out and out steal someone else's work is not acceptable.

And the characters that doll owners come up with belong to them -- what we're talking about here is pretty much stealing a character design. The base for the 3D representation of the character is the copyrighted work of the company that made it, but the character design and profile is the doll's owner. The world of bjds is a bit different, because they are made by a company and then finished by the owners. Faceup artists and modders are artists in their own rights as well -- their canvases just happen to be dolls.

BJDs are made to be customized. That's why they're sold naked, bald, and faceups cost extra -- it's not illegal to do this. It's what the companies actually intended, and also why many of them sell customizing supplies along with their dolls.

BJDs are very positive, but that doesn't mean that everyone in the community is likewise. I'm not one to go looking for trouble, or freak out over every little similarity, but there is a line. BJDs are a major creative outlet for many owners. They put lots of work into their dolls, and that should be respected.

Techniques are repeated, and as I said, we are naturally inspired by others, however, completely plagerizing someone's piece is not acceptable behavior. Having someone be inspired by your work is very flattering, having someone steal it, is not. That's disrespectful. They can have lots of beauty and creativity in their own lives--I would encourage anybody to strive for that, but they need to do it without ripping off other people's work.

 

I think you all missed my entire point; Of course copyrights on the dolls are very much in tact. My whole point is that the companies have all the copyrights, so anyone getting upset about a doll being copied is pretty much a mute point. Unless we created the doll ourselves entirely, we don't have the rights to it anyways. it's for our own private use, and not to put it put as an original I am actually a proffessional artist, a graphic artist, and I'm married to a professional sculptor. I've not had my art work stolen or copied because I'm very careful, and my art work is completely my own style, even though you may be able to see hints of past artists that influence my work. I would never put out a BJD doll as "my own". Authors don't base their characters off of someone elses concept, unless that clearly state it somewhere in the book, via footnotes, etc. The doll companies are aware that their dolls are being altered, but it is technically an infringement, but the companies aren't going to waste their time and resources to pursue it, unless someone goes public with it as their own creation. A copyright can be done the "poor man's way" by photographing it, and mailing it to yourself in a sealed envelope. That would be legal proof according to the date on the postage mark in a court. If, for example how ever, someone took a Disney character, altered it a bit, and put it out as their own , I promise that Disney would be all over it as soon as they found out. Copying it on preschool signs and such are actually in the same catgoty. Try it, if you feel brave. I'm not trying to cause upset; I just wanted to point out, that it isn't worhth all that trouble to get so worked up abut it, because we are all copying or changing someone else's design concept in the first place, so none of us are actually being original. Lets just relax about it, and have fun, instead of getting so worked up.

 

coinnle, I'm sorry I didn't finish my original response to you before you posted -- I got interrupted by a phone call (I take to long to write these things, I swear).

I think you're focusing very strongly on the physical doll itself, and not taking into account the character aspect of the issue. In fact, many people have taken fairly relaxed view to similarities in appearance (which are bound to happen anyway), but get upset when the character itself is stolen. The character does not belong to the doll company--it belongs to it's creator. The doll just happens to be that character's 3D representation. Also the companies are not going to 'waste their time to pursue it' (it being modding), because they made the dolls with the express purpose that they be altered by their owners.

 

The doll companies don't have the copyrights on our characters we portray on their dolls. Of course we don't claim the dolls as our own, I'm pretty sure anyone would be called out on that if they did.

The point being: if you drew a character on a canvas, does that mean the company that made the canvas has copyright to your character? It's the same thing.