When is it alright to accuse someone of copying your doll/someone else's doll?

To answer solitary_mushroom's question -

I think if you really like the way an owner did some feature of their doll, and you ask them if they would mind if your doll's feature was done the same way, and they say it's fine - then it's fine. I do the same thing - I ask the owner if I would like to use part of their doll's faceup as an example to a faceup artist.

In a different vein - one owner of a doll I also own did her girl as goth/vamp with dark red lips and black wig and black clothing. I would love to do a goth/vamp face for my girl some day and she will have red lips and a black wig and black clothes. I don't think that is copying because that's a general "look" seen on ay least 100 dolls on this forum.

I also often ask other owners what wig/eyes they are using because they look good - they are usually eyes I can't afford and wigs that are sold out, but someday I hope to get one of those nice natural looking wigs. When I do, I will not dress my doll exactly like their doll, etc.

Regarding character dolls - if multiple people have dolls of a particular character from an anime, it's not copying. I don't even think it is if they used the same perfect purchased outfit and the same eyes, especially if they are the most easily available, least expensive, or only locally shipped accessories available.

But if a doll is not a specific anime character, not a genre-look like goth/vamp, not the displayed look at the doll seller, but rather a copy of a truly unique dreamed-up character, unique made-up name not used in anime or elsewhere, or a truly unique faceup - then they should have asked the original owner owner. However, I do think the original owner also needs to consider any existing looks/names that may have influenced them, even if subliminally. Has nobody ever down a faceup like that? Or eyes? Or a name? Examine your own influences first.

And re the word "accuse". That's a bit harsh.

Carolyn

 

To me it isn't important if someone copies someone else's doll styling, including my own. Most El's look alike to me in faceup, wig and styling. Unless, someone is trying to sell the doll under the misconception that it is their original idea, it doesn't bother me in the least. I still find it a form of flattery.

 

I'd have to agree with the "multiple odd coincidences" and a high dependence on what those coincidences are.

One of my dolls has a corset piercing- you don't find many dolls with corset piercings, but it's not like I own or invented the idea, so that certainly wouldn't be my first thought if I ran across another one. Another doll with a corset piercing, flower-themed tattoos, and a name taken from a biblical flower? Then I'd start to get suspicious, but the farthest I would probably ever go would be posting a friends locked "Grrr, I am suspicious!" post in my livejournal. Unless there were another pierced Rose that were specifically an extreme Dollzone mod with tattoos in the same places would I actually start thinking it was outright copying. Then I'd start thinking of having a polite little PM chat with the owner.

 

I'm not quite sure on this. On one hand, I can understand someone wanting to keep the uniqueness of their doll, but on the other hand sometimes there is a limited amount of "looks" that people can come up with. I don't think that people should attempt to completely copy another person's doll, but if this happens I don't think that people should make quick accusations. I also don't think that this should ever be done in public because it can damage both people's reputations and hurt them terribly, false or not.

I have personally saw something about a face up that I loved and incorporated it into some of the dolls that I have, but I have never taken a face up and copied it exactly. That's too much. I understand people finding a look that they want for their doll, but I think that people should expect some degree of "uniqueness" for their doll. And should have the right to be able to bring a blatant similarity to that person's attention. However, once again, I don't think that this should ever be done in a public forum. Not only could you be wrong, but it makes you look like a coward and jerk, to do it that way.

 

It annoys me when people accuse others of copying. Unless a doll is truly unique and customized (specific scars, tatoos, unusual colors), many people are likely to prefer the same doll molds, hair color, wigs, etc. For example, I have planned for at least two years to have a all-over freckled, red haired doll (like my sister, when she was young) and I can think of two dolls that have appeared in the last year that have this concept. I still want a doll like this and bought a body and head that will work for me. I only discovered these parts recently, although I have been looking for just the right body and head for a long time. They are different than the other two dolls that I have seen, but even so, I would resent accusations that I copied someone's doll. I am not copying a doll, I am copying a red haired, freckled person. I just think that we all have had a very good idea. I haven't decided if I will post photos of her when I am finished, though, because my doll will not be "first".

 

My thoughts exactly! I really don't care if someone copies me... it's not like it will end the world if there is another doll out there like mine... and my choice in outfits are based on little to no money to spend on them so I would think no one would want to copy that

 

This is a bit of a tangent off, but personally, I never subscribe to the belief that 'imitation is the highest form of flattery'. To me, it's the highest form of not being creative and original. Inspiration might be a form of flattery, but not imitation, in my opinion.

I see copying as having little to do with flattery. This doesn't apply only to dolls. Dolls, outfits, stories, art, whatever. When a person copies, it's not a way to flatter the person who came up with the idea. It's a way to take credit for something that did not originate from them.

 

What if you copy it and nobody but you and maybe five of your close friends (who don't include the original owner) ever sees the doll? Who cares then?
It really seems like this whole business is about people showing off their dolls in the community and wanting to have something unique to show.
If you don't care about showing your dolls in the community then no problem, you can have what you like, even if it looks a lot like somebody else's.

I guess what I am saying there's a difference between making your doll look a certain way because you, personally, like it, and making your doll look a certain way and expecting/wanting everyone else to like it. It seems like most of these problems with doll uniqueness have to do with people trying to get some sort of public attention rather than just being content to enjoy a doll on their own.

 

I think part of this fourm is to share ideas about how to do dolls. I recently bought my first and I am still contemplating his faceup. I've saved a couple pictures from dolls I have seen here to consider as inspiration. I dont think there is anything wrong with that.

There is a line between obsessing about copying another doll and using some details (hair, faceup, eyes) to make the doll representative of what you think looks best on a given doll.

Just like when people imitate other people there is a creepy way to do it and a muse-like way to go about it.

(IMO)

 

There is at least one face-up I'm dying to attempt myself and I suppose that come under the 'copying' category. But it wil never look exactly like the other doll (If I ever even do it) And I must admit, since Morbidollz is booked solid and I can't afford her anyway, I have tried reapeatedly to give my Heath a gothic face-up. I will say that my skill level certainly stands in the way of my success at 'copying'

 

I dont think it's okay to plagiarise
Then again, i don't find it appropriate someone accuses someone else of copying just because it seems that way.
If people are late to share a hobby and their ideas have already been materialised, who's to say they never had the intentions of bringing a similar thought to reality beforehand ?

There's always been a danger of showcasing your dolls for all to see... and there has also been a danger with hiding them away so that no one sees them. And depending on the quantity of bias going around, you might even be under duress enough to force yourself to believe you really were copying.

If you take an artist's work and replicate it for your own personal use; the least you can do is pay homage to those who influenced you... and if you don't; then maybe they should consider that you may not have been influenced by them or their doll in the first place.
I mean there ARE a whole lot of people with supposed soul mates who share the same of "everything". . .no reason why being similar should be discarded here either.

Personally I wait too long to do anything myself... and when i come back, it's been done over and over again.. so instead of having to pioneer my way around and make a name for myself; i get to wallow in the shadows and pick my most favoured route of method without having to announce anything.
Just another way of thinking i guess. =n.n=

 

This raises an interesting question since some of the doll sculptors and face-up artists are going to be teaching workshops now.

When you take an art class it's usually understood that you're allowed to imitate the teacher's style in the class for purposes of learning. So it's fine if you make something, like a glass bead, that looks like the teacher's bead, although it's unlikely to be as good as the teacher's bead because you're trying to learn. You're not supposed to copy the teacher and then try to sell the copy, because that's frowned upon, but copying and keeping the item for your personal use/enjoyment/learning is fine.

So along the same lines, if a face-up artist teaches a certain style then it's likely we will see more dolls in that style, and maybe some of them will verge close to being "copies" at least of the faceup of the doll.

 

When is it alright to accuse someone? I agree with most people here that public accusations are always in bad taste. Dealing with the matter privately is best. A public confrontation would not be acceptable unless the person were selling that copy-doll as the other doll, or something equivelant. Copied elements will occur no matter what. There aren't enough dolls out there to make ALL dolls COMPLETELY original.

My personal feelings on copying are that for educational purposes, it's okay, and even good. But any deliberate copying beyond that, I don't agree with.
Since I don't post a lot of pictures, and not many people have seen my dolls, I know that when I see one who looks similar to mine, it's coincidence. I actually find it rather amusing then. Kind of like when 2 people who look a lot like eachother meet.
On the other hand, If I see someone do something with their doll that I was planning to do with mine, I feel like I should change my plans, as I don't want anyone, me or them, to feel like I am copying. I really prefer to be original if I can. (which is difficult with natural face-ups on real-world-style dolls) That is only preference though. I don't think I HAVE to.

I could get very uncomfortable if I felt someone had completely copied my dolls appearance AND personality though. (again, not a problem for me, as I haven't shown characters much here yet.) But that would be best settled by diplomaticly discussing it privately with the other person. Chances are, it's an unintentional copy, or someone who hadn't considered that copying could make another person uncomfortable.

 

Honestly, even if someone is deliberately copying your(in general, not aimed at one person) doll, I don't think that it's ever right to call them out -- publicaly or privately. Because ultimately, it shouldn't be that big of an issue. Your doll isn't a mascot used to sell a product, you aren't losing money because of some sort of brand confusion. No one has stolen your doll or made it less enjoyable to own, no one has stolen your camera and rendered you incapable of photographing and showing your doll off.

I feel the same way about art theives (assuming they don't make money off the art.) Yeah, so someone has stolen your art. But guess what -- that's because they can't create art on their own. So when push comes to shove, you'll be able to produce and original work and pursue a legitimate career. The thief? All they get is some extra attention on the internet. So fine, I don't care if people steal art or concepts. Because ultimately, the original creator is better off and shouldn't give the thief a second thought.

Really, in the end, all a copied doll gets is extra attention on the internet. Nothing truly substantial has been taken form you.

 

On the more extreme end of the spectrum, if you don't prove it or call each other out on it because one publicly appeared to do it first, you end up with miserable people (or spiteful!) who don't know whether their prized dolls are being thieved to fuel someone else's imagination... for all they know the thief might even be receiving more credit in the world because they simply got heard first. Then you get spiteful people who confide in others... who all rally up and indirectly gang the sore loner for supposed thieving when they may not have even done it in the first place ;<

Then again though it seems logical no one should be crying over it, it is still understandably, a big issue for a lot of people. a lot of people want credit and want to be known for things they've done. It's normal, right?
People's mentality drop. Of course, nothing physically gets taken; but a shift in your psychological mindset doesn't need anything to be physically taken away to begin with.

______________________
Somewhat not related to the above*
Since a lot of the art industry comes from another artist's previous influence... even if you come up with it by yourself, you end up having to research heavily on it as a student *anyway* just to see if someone did it ... or someone with similar work prior. I remember developing my entire folio back to front (as many do) because you're simply not *supposed* to have just come up with something.
So just because someone has already 'published' something before a person, doesn't mean that's where it stops. How does anything come out of that. There is a fine line between copying it and turning into something better. But where are you supposed to draw the line anyway.

As it stands, we have minimee dolls being sculpted that "copy" a celebrity, since they are in the public eye, you might say these celebrities have given an indirect "okay" to being "copied" already because of so what and such forth reason xx yy zz... and of course you can choose to call something different or something similar and draw your own ethical line, but.. yea... that's all it is. I guess it depends how many people you can get to agree with you to draw the line so to speak.

 

I guess you are right, but it is more understandable to me when it's an artist with a whole body of work and someone is copying them. For an artist it's a professional reputation and possibly a source of income that is being hijacked. Whereas if it's just a matter of being known in some doll community for one or two of your hobby dolls (i.e. you're not a professional artist trying to sell your dolls or art services and you're not entering some contest for a prize for "most unique custom doll", so there's no money or big public reputation at stake) it seems like a relatively small thing for someone to get excited about. Dolls for me are fun, they're not some big part of my creative identity that I need to have public attention for, so it's hard for me to get excited about any issue that mainly turns on who gets public attention.

 

Well you never really know :p
If a lot of people learnt the techniques of those who have had the luck of trial and error work out for them in both clothing, esthetics and whatnot- who is anyone to say they wouldn't be earning money for it now? >;O

The Doll community can work up a reputation for you; this forum alone is HUGE. What starts off as a hobby can always always have the potential to turn more "serious"... most just aren't lucky enough or don't have enough support to hit it off ;D

 

That may be the goal or even an unexpected benefit for some people. For me personally, I am not interested in having my hobbies "turn serious". I have a career for that. For me, hobbies are for fun, not for recognition, and this is my hobby, not my career, and I don't want it to be a career in any way.

So I don't care if anyone ever sees my dolls or not, or if 15 people make a doll just like mine. It won't disturb the feeling I have for my very own doll. I've told this to sellers a few times when they said "I'm selling this doll but I'll likely customize another one, perhaps in a different resin shell, that looks like this doll, will that bother you?" and I answer that it won't bother me in the slightest if they made another one, or ten.

If anyone else really is more career-minded and perhaps does have dreams of becoming some sort of respected doll designer, I'd say that talent will out in the end. If someone else steals your ideas, just come up with new ones faster than they can steal. You're creative enough to do that, the other person obviously isn't.

 

Well, all im saying is it could be a factor to why *other* people are uneasy about being *copied*. Those who obviously dont, may not be so compelled to empathise since it doesn't affect them so.

Then again, when a person *asks* for permission, that turns things altogether as well.

 

If we're talking about someone being career-minded and having dreams of being a respected doll designer, then your statement doesn't really jive with reality. If you created something, you're going to feel pissed if someone steals it, especially if the creation is going to be part of your career. It's easy to say you're creative enough, just create more, but what you've created has been produced with your very own hard work and ideas. Of course it's annoying and not that easy to shrug off. Whether or not they'll pull through in the end with their business, it's still a blow to the person who created it if someone steals their ideas.

If you work hard, earn money and then someone steals the money, I imagine you're going to feel somewhat miffed. The first thought for most people is not usually 'Oh, I can just earn more money.' It's usually more along the lines of 'That's not fair!'

Don't forget that when it comes to artists, sculptors, etc, it's always a bit more personal for them.