When Is It OK to Accuse a Company of Copying?

This is obviously a very long post, but it is based on research from as many copying issues as I could find on DoA, which are listed below with appropriate thread links and status. These links may be useful to both sides of the debate as examples upon which to base statements and craft arguments, even though I know this isn't a formal debate forum. And as I say below, more links are welcome, these are just what I was able to dig up.

I'd first like to address some points in Lizzard's initial post.

These are the threads that I was able to dig up on DoA in reference to members posting threads about doll-copying, listed in chronological order from oldest to newest:

1. Dollzone vs CP and Volks (heads, bodies, body parts), dating from fall 2006, though the copying began much earlier—I cannot find the original thread (it may have been merged with the debate thread or deleted): http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72982&
Status: Partially resolved; DZ's Lynn was a copy of CP's Woori, SDC Kurenai's hands were copied for sure; other disputes (such as whether or not the Volks SD16 body was copied) remain unsettled.

2. Lolidoll vs CP, dated 06-12-2007: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133455&
Status: Resolved; the dolls are copies.

3. Dollmore (male Model body) vs Dollshe (body), dated 11-21-2006: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100051&
Status: Unresolved; the Dollshe sculptor was said to be pursuing legal action.
Edit: Apparently it was unofficially resolved: http://denofangels.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2229336&postcount=28 and http://denofangels.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2231351&postcount=48

4. Bobobie (Sweet) vs Mythdoll (Wujee), dated 12-20-2006: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105222
Status: Unresolved; the 50 promotional dolls were instantly sold out to one unknown person and all pictures of Sweet were taken down. Sweet was not offered for further sale.

5. Phantomdoll vs Inhyeungsa (body) and CP (hands), dated 01-19-2007: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112082&
Status: Unresolved; they are copies, but it is unknown whom exactly copied the parts. Phantomdoll still seems to be selling Siamese and Korat with these bodies, as the dolls are available here: http://www.phantomdoll.com/main2.html

6. Bobobie (Eric) vs Wishel, dated 02-08-2007: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117322&
Status: Resolved; not a copy: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118202&

7. Jun Planning vs Bluefairy (body), dated 04-28-2007: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134235&
Status: Unresolved; Bluefairy investigation was pending.

8. Soom Teeny Gem vs Volks Yo-SD (body), dated 07-30-2007: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155257
Status: Resolved; not a copy.

Another was Foreverdoll, which copied Volks dolls and was eventually shut down.

Also, when Narindoll first came out, they were accused of copying Unoa Quluts, and were later absolved of suspicion.

For another, I believe that when Luts first opened and CP produced the open-eyed Ari, there was some kind of dispute about Ari being a copy of Volks Nono. Ari's production was subsequently stopped, though I do not know if it was ever proved or disproved that Ari was a copy.

Lastly that I can think of, there used to be a thread when Mythdoll first came out concerned about Mythdoll having copied Dream of Doll's mini body, with comparison pictures, but I cannot find the thread. At any rate, I believe Mythdoll was absolved of any suspicion.

I tried to find as many of the copy-dispute threads as possible and list the ones I couldn't find threads for, but I probably have missed some. If anybody else has more to add, please do.

The statement above appears to be an exaggeration, as far as I can determine. In the past year that I have been able to find, there were 4 threads over a period of some 7 months—over half a year. When you say "there have been an increasing number of threads", I thought I'd find at least a dozen of them or more, in particular some kind of surge of threads within the past year or recent months; but there does not appear to be. There doesn't seem to be that much cause for alarm about a sudden, rampant increase. I think the reason people may think there are a lot of threads is because, when a possibility of copying is raised, it becomes high-profile immediately and receives a lot of attention, and thus it seems like they're happening wildfire all over when they really aren't—on this board. Another reason why people may think there are so very many threads is because they're visiting different forums and communities and may be mixing them up.

I dispute that statement. For the moment, I'm not going to touch on the Narindoll-Unoa or Mythdoll-DoD disputes or the others because I cannot locate the threads.

First of all, nobody is going to accuse or imply an accusation just because they feel like randomly slandering a company. In most of these cases, the worry was initially founded on a photograph.

In the Phantomdoll case, the person actually had both dolls on hand and sent the disputed hand off to somebody who had the original CP hand to compare it with. Despite the hard evidence/proof (as it seems definitions vary from people to people), little has been accomplished and the doll's status seems to go generally unremarked upon.

In the case of Bobobie vs Wishel, the accuser, Wishel itself, did have reason besides photographs to think that Wishel had been copied—a person who had been working for Wishel previously left and joined the Bobobie company. Does this condone an outright accusation? No. We do not know under what circumstances said person left, nor is it any of our business. But it is a fact that I do not often hear mentioned when people talk about this case, which I think should lend more slightly more credibility to Wishel since they were not basing their claims solely on photos alone. If somebody leaves a company, joins another, and then said other company starts producing a doll that looks, in photographs, similar to the one from the original company, I think there is more basis for suspicion than on seeing a photo alone. Afterwards, Wishel apologized for its outright accusations.

In the case of Jun Planning vs Bluefairy, the owner of both dolls deemed in her opinion that they were not copies, but when others sent photos to Bluefairy they seemed concerned that the dolls may have been copies. The issue is unresolved, as far as I know.

In the Soom vs Volks case, the concern was from a person (me :P) with a Yo in-hand, looking at the photos of the Teeny and also based on given official doll measurements for the Teeny which appeared to be exactly the same as the Yo. Later the Teeny measurements were taken again and turned out different from the official measurements. When the Teeny was later taken to a meet-up where there was also a Yo, it was determined not to be a copy.

In these 4 cases this year, the Soom/Volks case was based on a person with a doll comparing it to photographs and also measurements, and the post is stated as an opinion and suspicion, not as outright accusation. Of all these 4 particular cases, it doesn't have the thinnest evidence. There were photos and measurements, whereas in Bobobie vs Wishel it was purely photos and also the circumstantial suspicion of a former employee leaving one company and joining another that then produced the disputed doll.

Basically, all of the listed copy-concerned threads are "founded". Whether or not they were well-founded or ill-founded is a matter of opinion. But they are not "unfounded".

Regardless of my opinion whether or not such criteria should be established in the first place (which point I address further down, I'm just addressing things in the order they were written in the original post), I do not think this should be one of them, because the company is basing its opinion on photos too. This would mean it is allowable for somebody who works at a company to make a judgment that a person on this board cannot, based on the same presented evidence. DoA has never been a board dictated by the will and say-so of BJD companies, and I hope that won't ever happen.

And take the Bobobie vs Wishel case—Wishel was the company making the accusation, and the doll turned out to not be a copy. No, a company's say-so should not be one of the criteria for starting such a thread. I know it was just a suggestion on Lizzard's part, but I thought I'd address that here anyway.

 

Part two! Moving on to the actual questions...

I think it is appropriate to publicly voice suspicions as long as there is enough evidence OR actual proof, both of which usually takes the form of comparison photographs. The criteria for photos as evidence could be a whole debate on its own, of how many, the pros and cons, taken under what conditions, who took the photos, etc., so I won't get into that here.

I do not believe that people should be required to do an in-person comparison before posting a thread about personal suspicion. It would naturally be very welcome if they were able to and is likely the best route to go about such things, but if circumstances prevent such a comparison, then as long as the matter is raised politely in the appropriate forum, and stated as opinion and not proof, I do not see why there should be problems as long as everyone remains polite. It will be easier for everyone to see if there is a problem, others will be able to help with their own pictures or by pointing out differences or similarities, and see things more quickly brought to resolution.

I think it would be helpful to have suggested guidelines, but establishing "hard criteria" that must be followed before a post is allowed to be made is a bit much and could discourage people from voicing concerns (unless the criteria were made more on the general side). Suggestions could include: photographs from different angles, close-ups of unique or unusual jointing or sculpted characteristics/quirks, photos or clay imprints of the interior of the dolls if there are defining or unique marks inside, measurements, and other such things.

I think that nobody should be allowed to make a thread definitively stating "This doll is a copy of this doll" without proof. I do think people should be allowed to make a thread stating, "This is my opinion that this doll looks like it could be a copy of this doll" as long as there is evidence to support this statement.

The following addresses the concern that posting any type of suspicion/opinion/accusation of copying permanently harms a company's reputation.

The main concern seems to be that unproved accusations deal damage to a company's reputation. This is possible, and has happened (to my knowledge) in the Narindoll vs Unoa, Dollzone vs CP/Volks, Bobobie vs Wishel, and Mythdoll vs DoD cases—though I haven't seen any references to Mythdoll vs DoD in a long time, probably because the thread cannot be found and Mythdoll no longer seems to be in production.

While not an excuse to condone the damage, it remains a fact that companies do recover from such "damage". Narindoll prospers today; Dollzone certainly has a very large legion of vehement supporters; Bobobie continues to expand and gain agents in different countries; Mythdoll is no longer in production but after the initial accusations, it gained many new supporters. It is also interesting to note that in the aforementioned cases, they were all new companies when the suspicions and accusations of copying came out. They had no backing of credibility or history.

I'd also say that in Dollmore vs Dollshe, there was some damage dealt—but at the same time, it oftentimes seems to me that such issues get swept under the carpet as much as thrown around, if that makes any sense. The thread detailing the dispute was locked until further news, which so far hasn't come; but despite the initially high-profile case, it seems Dollmore flourishes anyway, and certainly their Model boy has many fans—and many of the new fans are completely unaware of the dispute. So maybe there wasn't that much "damage". Possibly this is also because they were already an established company, and people are more likely to defend a company they know has been good in the past than they are ready to defend a new company sprung out of nowhere that they know nothing about.

There's another consideration that should be taken into account: each and every BJD company gains more fans everyday; and not every BJD fan in the world comes to DoA, reads every thread on DoA everyday, and even if they did, I say this again: How many of them are going to just glance at a post suspicious of copying and make an instant and permanent judgment against a company? I consider it unreasonable to believe that one post every several months raising the possibility of copying and showing evidence is going to destroy or even harm a company's reputation—particularly if a company is found innocent.

If a company is innocent, people will know. Those people who never check back? There are just as many and more who will see the thread for the first time after it's been resolved, and read it if they're curious, and know the company is innocent. And many of those people who walk away thinking the company is guilty without bothering to check for updates or proof will eventually find out the company was innocent after all, either by reading another thread that mentions the resolution, or saying in a thread, "But isn't that the company that copied?" and then having people tell them, "No, they didn't, look at this thread."


People should have proof when actively accusing a company of copying. People should provide evidence and their points of concern if they think a company may be copying.

As long as everyone remains calm and polite, there's no reason a thread asking for other's opinions on whether or not an issue may be at hand should degenerate into either people screaming that the doll is for certain-sure a copy, or people screaming that the doll definitely isn't.

 

That's a lot of words, shizalent. @_@ I didn't manage to read all of it so if I've made a mistake, feel free to correct me.

First, let me summarize the occurrence of 'copy' threads for those who were as confused as I was initially. Nov 06, Dec 06, Jan 07, Feb 07, Apr 07, Jun 07 and July 07. Insert Mythdoll vs DoD somewhere in there. Dollzone and CP/Volks happened earlier than fall 06. CP first opened in...2004 I think so their first problem would have happened then. I'm not sure when exactly Narindoll was established but it says the artist first completed his own style of BJD in 2001 so I'll just assume it's a long time ago.

From what I can interpret, majority of these threads (7 of them) were started in the past 8-9 months. A few of them occurred within a month or weeks of each other. Prior to Nov 06, there were much fewer threads and I think probably spaced months apart. If you chart a graph, you would probably see an increase. 'Increasing number of threads in the past year' does not mean that there has to be over a dozen threads in the span of seven months. It means that there are more threads in the past few months compared to the months and years before that. As shown by your links, I would say yes, there has been an increase. No, I don't think that there has been an exaggeration.

I'm not quite sure what you're disputing with 'Suspicions proved unfounded' by mentioning those four particular cases. Was the Jun Planning one considered baseless or not? Does an employee changing jobs equal good evidence of piracy? What about the other cases like the Dollzone debate where in the course of one thread, many many people stepped forward to say they copied some other doll from some other company with little evidence? And I got quite lost at the well-founded and ill-founded part of your post as well.

But, now I move on to the more important points. However, someone has already said it better than I can so...

QFE!!

Also, it was mentioned previously that the companies don't seem to suffer from the damage to their reputation. I wouldn't know how true that is since I have no access to company records, but I think we forget that sometimes, even the doll owners' reputations are damaged from accusations. Some people profess such hatred for Dollzone especially after the last round of allegations and Bobobie's distributor still receives negativity for distributing the dolls.

It's not only the companies that suffer from these threads. So do the doll owners and the community. Which is why I would err to the side of caution when it comes to posting threads that might imply piracy.

 

I find that usually we lack the evidence, the hard evidence when someone calls out *OMG COPY!* Frankly, no one here is a design investigator and clearly some people are acting out with too much emotion on the subject when we should remain cold and analytical. Witchhunt comes to mind with some strangely strong reaction to certain companies but this isn't the point here.

If someone thinks a doll is a copy they should first contact the mods, then the company that's being copied. And then URGE THEM to do the investigation and the company themselves SHOULD make a post that there's another company that they suspect is copying them (after they hopefully checked the info) I think if the company being copied is the one doing to accusation it seems more legit than having people run around crying wolf for them.

It seems to me that usually companies are afraid to accuse another of copying because after all they are reproducing a human body and unless they are doing dolls with 3 arms and one leg then pretty much every similar doll bodies will look alike.

Also when people call out COPY! They don't think a second about the poor person who just bought a doll from a company that is legit and who bought the doll because they loved it. When people come around and start the accusation and the OMG BBQ copy suxxors start, do they ever think of the poor person's feeling? no... mostly from what I can see they don't. They are vindicative and downright rude. Sometimes it would be wise to see what it would be like for us if we made an honest buying then someone out of the blue cries out COPY!

I'm not saying that copies shouldn't be reported, far from it. But I would like to see more proof like side by side comparaisons before emotions get in the way of logic. We love our dolls true, but do we really need all this drama?

Everyone suffers in this situation, the companies involves, the people buying the dolls and other dolls collectors who might have been interested in the sculpt and who are now afraid to buy because they are afraid they will get bad response to a doll they like.

Could we just let the companies do the accusations here? It's their bread and butter, if they feel it's a issue, they'll voice it. If they don't well maybe they think there's not enough proof... If you feel so strongly about a dollbeing a copy of another,inform the company that's being copied and see what their answer is. wouldn't that be more fair?

 

It is definitely something to consider. As with most rules and guidelines of the forum, I imagine it would go unread.

I am always vaguely distressed when situations make it necessary for us to create new rules.

After issues with a certain individual, DoA's ToS underwent a major renewal - and the new version basically says that members are legally responsible for what they write; the forum/moderation really can't be sued unless the offending material is an official forum post by the administration. The meaning of this is twofold:

1. If you want to make a potentially libelous statement, the liability for that falls back on you. Please consider this before just firing off accusations.

2. The Moderation does not make official statements or major decisions regarding bans, copies, Marketplace ethics of specific individuals, etc., lightly.

To be honest, I wouldn't trust a lawyer to tell me if something was copied, only if it was legal to do so in the country where it was done. Even if a lawyer told me that certain dolls were legal to be sold, I would never believe that they were "original."

That, and by the time these legal cases are decided, who knows how many people may have bought the copied dolls? Lolidoll has been selling for over a year.

Most outsiders can't tell the difference between boys and girls unless they're naked, so I would actually prefer to hear the opinions of people who are not only familiar with dolls, but the dolls in question. If I ever purchased a doll and had doubts, I would take it to my dollyfriends or DoA rather than a lawyer.

I dislike seeing divisions in the doll community at all.

I do find, though, that people tend to damage their own reputations rather than having others do it for them in these discussions. The person who is overeager to spot a copy loses a lot of credibility (and usually gets a fair number of people angry with them).... and the people who argue that "it's just a doll/hand/head/whatever, and it's cheaper so I don't care" lose respect for coming off as flippant or cheap.

I know that in each copying thread, I've added a few people to my list of "people not to deal with"... having nothing to do with the dolls or copying itself.

 

Yes, that's what I said (I bolded the phrase from my original statement above). I also emphasized that that sentiment was my gut reaction, and went on to say that my *thoughtful* response had to be that in some cases it is not only proper, but downright helpful, for people to be alerted to a potential case of copying.

The real point behind my post is equivalent to your reminder about liability for libel. I believe my words were something to the effect that we need to be cautious before leaping into the fray with accusations

 

Shizalent said
"3. Dollmore (male Model body) vs Dollshe (body), dated 11-21-2006: http://denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100051&
Status: Unresolved; the Dollshe sculptor was said to be pursuing legal action."

Innacurate. It has been resolved, to a degree. Both companies agreed to call in outside engineers to examine both bodies, and they determined that Dollmore was NOT creating a copy.These findings held up in court. In other words, Dollmore has won the first round of lawsuit.

This basically is in a "stand-off" at the moment. Dollshe is afraid of being sued for libel, and Dollmore wants a public apology from Dollshe. No other legal proceedings are occurring at present, hence, my statement that it is a "stand-off".

As to how I know these things, as the whole story evolved last December, I was very, very close to Hyon Burke, the US Dollmore representative, who basically gave me a blow-by-blow description of everything as it was unfolding. There has been no news on this stuff since February/March, so I am assuming it is still in this stand-off mode.

As to the question the OP posted. I think the Dollmore/ Dollshe example is precisely why we need some rules and/or criteria for discussing these issues. It is far too easy, based on SOME similarities, for everyone to get up in arms and start accusing others of copying. I think the accusations flung at Dollmore during that whole fiasco were deplorable, and as the original legal proceedings have now determined, unfounded.

Meanwhile, there is no doubt that Dollmore's reputaion has taken a hit, AS has Dollshe's, as I know people who will not buy from either of those companies due to the allegations that were made.

 

Hello, all. I've read the previous posts with great interest. There are definitely cultural differences between DOA and the Korean online doll communities and I'd just like to mention some things.

All copying accusations in the Korean doll communities are banned/not allowed. This is simply because unlike here at DOA, there are many dollmakers/creators/companies that are part of the community and consequently, copying threads turn out to be huuuuuge slugfests and the members get divided into "sides" and the forums become battlefields. It's never ending.
Without a specific 'no copying threads allowed' rule in place, you really can't tell people to stop fighting online. "Freedom of speech" and all that. The alternative is for people to voice their concern to the company/companies involved, and let them resolve the problems by themselves.
Threads such as 'company so-and-so and company whatchamacallit are in a legal debate so beware' may be allowed, but accusations/opinions regarding copying are not. (The companie's real names are NEVER disclosed, literally 'so-and-so' is used, with deduction left up to the reader.)
Copying accusations re: handmade doll clothing shops, faceups, etc are also discouraged. Everything is to be done via email/homepage bbs boards/PMs.
This is mostly for forum maintenance rather than anything else.
In the case of a doll company/creator/maker that is proven to be fraudulous/criminal/guilty, that member is automatically banned from the community and the knowledge is mostly announced in a subtle-yet-everyone-knows manner. And they are immediately put on the "blacklist", which is public.

IF such threads are allowed here at DOA, how would you stop the he said, she said arguments should the accusors and accused start to battle here? And what is the point of members, who do not represent the companies themselves, arguing over who is wrong or who is right? Who is to conclude the disagreement?

I've been in this hobby long enough to know how passionate we can become about this - it's more than a hobby, really - but it's like accusing a clothing brand for copying another clothing brand. I personally think this should be left to the people directly involved.

 

I will personally apologise for the inconsistency in this particular situation; originally, we had contacted all three companies and had been waiting for responses from them. While we were waiting, other issues came up and the issue of the copied body was mislaid.

There was also the consideration that it might have somehow been a collaboration between Phantomdoll and Inheyungsa of Happydoll. I don't believe it was, but we were unable to get a response from to confirm either way.

The mods are bringing it back to discussion, and will be dealing with it as promptly as possible.

I'm not sure of the status of the BF potential copy - that doll may have been ruled "off-topic" rather than recast. I'll look into it and let you know.

 

This is exactly why I think there need to be limits on copying threads. I haven't been following the Dollshe/Dollmore conflict closely, but I was aware of the accusations. This, however, is the first I've heard of any kind of resolution (I know, technically, not everything has been resolved, but it's settled the questions of whether or not the Model boys are a copy). Accusations seem to have much longer legs than retractions.

It's like Pandora's Box. Opening it is easy, but good luck undoing what's been done. What's the result of the Dollshe/Dollmore situation? Well, a legal standoff for starters. The bigger outcome-- and the more troubling one-- is the number of Dollmore doll owners that have been trampled on during all this. I know someone that had a Dollmore doll, and they ended up giving it away because of all the drama stemming from the copying accusations. Not even one of the Model dolls-- just a Dollmore doll. People so vilified the entire company, though, that there was a lot of pressure to get rid of anything Dollmore. Has anyone come out and issued some kind of apology for their behavior? Any retractions? Even a quick "my bad, sorry I made you feel like mud for owning a Dollmore doll"? I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

The Jun Planning dolls were never banned to begin with. You'll notice they are not listed in the thread stating which companies are banned due to copying issues.

 

I have to disagree with the "let the companies/lawyers hammer it out" sentiment. Copyright/patent disputes between two domestic companies generally take years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to settle. Throw in the fact that the accused copycat is often operating in a different country, and you've got a whole new set of international vs. domestic law issues to deal with. This would be a hurdle for even the most well-financed, multinational corporation. It's unreasonable to expect that a small, artist-run doll company could resort to legal recourse under such circumstances.

As such, I believe it is the responsibility of the community to alert each other to possible copying issues. I'm not saying we should be running around rampant making baseless accusations, but we should be looking out for each other--as well as the companies whose products we love

 

One thing that I think people forget is how big of an influence DOA has in the bjd world. Any newcomers get automatically directed here to get more information. Because of this, the posters here need to realize that what they post has consequences. Just because you're on an internet forum doesn't mean you're not responsible for your actions. Those who post here, I believe, have a responsibility to the community because they are a part of something so influential. By posting their suspicions, they're opening the aforementioned pandora's box to the entire world. I think it's something people need to remember. Just because you're online doesn't mean your words wont hurt someone or come back to bite you.

Would you be willing to stand up in a room full of doll owners, company representatives, and sculptors who can see your face and make these claims? If not, you also probably shouldn't be posting it, either.

 

Gayle, my response is the same as Wotan's--that's the first I've heard about there being a legal standoff between Dollshe and Dollmore. Was there another thread somewhere or an official statement or something that had this information that I could link to, or shall I just link to your post?

LKJ, yeah, that was a lot of words, but I tried to explain what I was thinking thoroughly. And viewed in the light that you and []bLizzard[/b] put it, it does sound like an increase--though still not within the past year alone. (Also, I just thought of a new copy-case, when DoD first came out I believe there were people who said they were copies of MSDs, but my memory of that case is the faintest of all.)

I acknowledge that there has been an increase overall, but I still hold that the initial post makes it seem like there's been an alarming jump. In the long-term over-the-years view, there has been an increase, but then again, I think that's only natural considering the number of new companies that appear and the incidences of copying. 3 of the 8 numbered cases were confirmed-for-certain-sure copying (Dollzone, Lolidoll, Phantomdoll); 3 of them were unresolved (Dollshe, Bobobie vs Mythdoll, Jun Planning). So there were 6 out of 8 cases that were based on a real problem.

(Just to note, I do know that the Jun Planning dolls are not banned, and that the owner of both dolls said that she didn't think they were copies. However, I included the case in the list above because the suspicion was raised in the thread, Bluefairy was contacted, and seemed concerned.)

Does that mean the other 2 were useless damaging threads? Not necessarily. Yes, I know that Bobobie does still suffer from some stigma even though it still has and gains fans, but I would also like to point out that while they were absolved of suspicion in the Eric/Wishel case, the Sweet/Wujee case is still unresolved--and things lying around unresolved like that tend to muddy waters long after they would normally have been clear.

Lizzard, it seems to me that the point we must disagree on is exactly how "damaging" it is to a company to post a suspicious thread with evidence (as opposed to a statement thread with proof). I believe that if a suspicious thread is appropriately written and posted, there will be no real damage as long as the results come soon after and absolve suspicions.

I don't believe in cutting down innocents, as you phrase it, in an attempt to catch every possibly guilty party. But I don't believe that raising questions and stating an opinion is cutting down innocents, either. , I mean, if every opinion everyone stated was a blade, everyone, companies and all, would be mown down flatter than a fresh-cut lawn in no time flat.

I guess we have to disagree here too. I, personally, would like to know if my doll is a copy, or suspected of being a copy--and I also know that many other people do not feel this way. Therefore I don't stay silent--if I have a suspicion, I'm going to try to do some footwork to see if my suspicions are correct or false. If you are referring to the Teeny/Yo case, I did do footwork by PMing an owner, getting more nude photos and measurements, and then posting an opinion. Yes, I was saying what I wanted, which means that I was saying my opinion and asking for others thoughts and, if they had it, more photos or evidence, pro or con. I find it astounding that there are people who think that nobody should be allowed to state an opinion, even when it is based on evidence, and I suppose that's another point there we must disagree on: I think photos can be a basis for suspicion and therefore can be presented as evidence, and that measurements too can fulfill this role.

Also, I'm not so sure about voicing no suspicion on the board and instead reporting the suspicions to the companies. Legal proceedings can take a great deal of time and the companies probably wouldn't be posting public notices about which exact companies they are dealing with, and so in the meantime nobody might know what's going on--or people might know and then tales will spread like wildfire about there being a legal case against said company, which I think is more permanently damaging to a company than one thread on DoA containing an opinion.

I think that if suspicions can be soothed on a web forum in an orderly fashion, that's far preferable and more reassuring than setting one company against another and waiting for them to deal with it. After all, the companies are under no obligation to tell you their findings, which could take considerably more time than just posting on a forum.

 

So shoot first ask questions later is a responsible way to behave?

I think it's absolutely reasonable for a person to have some facts not speculation before making accusations. We expect that out of people in our Feedback area, there is no reason to treat companies any differently.

Just to make that clear, speculation isn't good enough here for posting bad feedback with regard to our Buyers and Sellers, why should companies get less consideration?

A person does a community absolutely no good or service by speculating, it's self-indulgent and irresponsible.

 

It's been stated a few times and people seem to be ignoring this point:

It doesn't just damage the company's reputation, it damages the accuser's reputation as well. When people jump the gun and cry "copy" without proof, they lose credibility. Period. It almost doesn't matter what the outcome of the situation is because there is no proof at first, but the outcry has begun.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how optimistic we want to be about the community as a whole, all it takes is ONE person to cry "copy" for others to blindly follow. Those people then tell other people that X is a copy of Y. They never look back at the outcome. Soon you have a whole faction of people against the company that created X because someone somewhere accused them of copying the company that created Y.

Look how many people are still uppity over the Dollmore Dollshe thing? It's been proven that Dollmore was not creating a copy, but how many people have actually followed it enough to care? Clearly not many if there's still a misconception and people are still saying it's unresolved. And how many people are still going to be prejudiced against Dollmore because of this?

So what about the credibility of Dollmore? Of the people who accused Dollmore? Of the people who blindly followed the accusation and told their friends, etc? It's not just in this situation, but others.

In the most recent debacle, do you really think everyone's okay with how things went? The doll was proven not to be a copy, which is good and all, but what about the accuser's reputation? I'll tell you right now, I won't be trusting Shiz's judgement at all anymore. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. The accusation was made without real evidence. It was made because Shiz was personally suspicious of the Teeny Gem (as stated in that first post). Shiz turned personal suspicions into a false accusation of copying. The post may not have said "I think this is a copy" but it was worded in such a way that anyone could see that's what was happening.

This needs to be prevented. This personal suspicions = pretty sure it's a copy with no evidence thing needs to stop. It's one thing to have substantial evidence, but just looking at someone else's pictures is not substantial. It's all speculation. It ruins the reputations of some people, and it ruins the enjoyment of dolls for other people.

 

Who would run blindly into a courtroom throwing accusations at someone with no evidence but simply speculation? You'd get laughed out of the courtroom. How is this any different? You expect the forum to make judgments on companies but you expect it done with no proof of anything. Accusations should never be flippant and spontaneous.

Make sure you HAVE evidence before blindly accusing anyone of anything. Real evidence. Speculation is not evidence. Speculation hurts more than just those being speculated against. How Dezarii did it was how it should probably be done. Side-by-side comparisons in good lighting, but only AFTER it's seriously thought upon what the impact to the community could be, what other reasons for the similarities there could have been.. etc.

Yes, it's been said before but it apparently bears repeating since it doesn't seem to sink in how dangerous speculation can be "just because they are dolls". These are real businesses, real livelihoods and real money that gets caught up in the mix.

Take some responsibility for your words.