When Is It OK to Accuse a Company of Copying?

For the issue of the Soom/YoSD, I do think that the situation could have been handled better - if there were plans to meet and compare in person, it might have been prudent to wait to post suspicions on DoA until after there was a side-by-side comparison. But belaboring the issue is getting little tedious (from both sides).

I guess my feeling with regard to posting about copying is very simple - I have no problem with people voicing concerns if they have strongly believe that a company might be copying another company's sculpt. However, I expect for people to be able to show why they believe this using as much actual photographic proof as possible... and if there is not substantial proof, they need to wait and research until there is. I also dislike (and distrust) suspicions being presented as facts. It also makes it very easy to dismiss the whole thing if one of the crucial "facts" doesn't jive.

I feel that the Happydoll/Phantomdoll thread was highly appropriate. I think the documentation is exemplary, and the depth and breath of the evidence definitely warranted making it public knowledge.

The evidence presented in the Dollmore/Dollshe issue is just as in-depth and did not lack any of the information that people have had on their "wish lists." And more, actually, as there were actually photos with part-swapping. I feel that it was appropriate to have posted on DoA. The claim of copying was not initiated by a DoA member, but Mr. Dollshe himself on a Korean site. The translations of the proceedings, as well as photos, were informative and rather comprehensive. The fact that our Korean members (awesomely) translated statements by both sides made it a valuable resource. I think that from what was presented, most thinking individuals could probably come up with their own opinion.

People have been using this case as an example of how accusations have more weight than resolutions. There IS no official resolution at this point. Neither company has given any public statements, updates, or additional information. The only one who seems to know anything about it is Gayle, who is getting her information solely from from a friend on the Dollmore side. The thread was locked with the note that it would be unlocked if anyone had any new information; I would like to point out that no one has asked the moderators to unlock it to add new information. Dollmore, Dollshe, and Gayle herself have opted NOT to update that thread. The information has been whipped out in this thread as though we ought to know this, but somehow overlooked it in our persecution fervor... when in reality, how could any of us have known?

I personally take copying very seriously and I would not want to own a copied doll or a doll with copied components. But I don't know everything about every company, so I do appreciate a heads-up to possible problems. I am intelligent enough to make my own decisions based on the information that is presented. But if someone comes in waving around unsubstantiated suspicions, I will dismiss them as being a twit.

 

I want to give a little info about Korean BJD.

The Korean doll companies are part of the Korean BJD Manufacturer's association. This is a private organization which serves in many ways.. taking up copying issues, excessive manufacturing delays, etc. It's all done behind the scenes with no public information, but their mission is to keep originality in the work and help keep quality high. In Asia, peer pressure is a very significant force to deal with. Companies who have copied other artists' work can find themselves shut out of doll shows and events. When I lived in Japan there was a saying that went, "The nail that sticks up will be hammered down." I'd say this also happens in Korea as well.

I know the Dollmore/Dollshe situation was a big deal in Korea but it's all been taken out of discussion since there are legal proceedings.

I'm sure the Korean artists are heartened to know that those of us in the international community are supporting originality. But I don't think they expect us to be activists.

It's also important for us to know that there are ferocious rivalries between several of the Asian countries... including Japan, Korea and China. Photos can be faked, and some people will do anything to stir up a conflict and arouse nationalistic pride. As outsiders, we have to take a deep breath and proceed carefully and respectfully.

Catrina

Edit: Here is a photo of the members of the KBDMA, Korean BJD Manufacturer's Association.
The president-elect of this group is the president of Luts, and he has a 2 year term.

It's nice to see a group like this, backing originality and quality. Hurray for KBDMA.

 

Something to add to the suspicion issue: If suspicion were enough to make a case, anyone who was a suspect in a criminal case would automatically be behind bars. And while police will release "main suspects" on the news, they don't go haphazardly releasing every person's name who is associated with the case. Why? Because it's irresponsible. So why should we release every suspicion? That's why there should be guidelines. I doubt anyone here is saying that threads regarding copying should be banned but that there needs to be something in place to protect EVERYONE involved and a nice compromise between "not allowed" and "everyone throw your suspicions in the pile" is requiring a certain amount of evidence to be in place before the thread is posted.

I don't think we can ask the mods to approve or deny something before posting because that would imply they agree with the poster. However allowing them the right to delete a thread that contains only suspicion without enough evidence seems to be a good compromise to me.

On another note, it's certainly possible to gain evidence without posting a "OMG COPY" thread. Ask people for comparison pictures and measurements in a thread. You don't have to say why, many people will gladly oblige. Ask for different poses and angles. Plenty of people ask for comparison pictures like that for completely different reasons. So it can't be argued that a copying post is just to get more information. There are plenty of other ways to do that without causing and uproar.

 

1) At what point do you think it is appropriate to publicly voice suspicions that a company is copying another?

Maybe there haven't been an astounding amount of 'copy' threads, given the higher percentage of new dolls that come out each month, but I have been a little irritated at the "that doll looks an awful lot like (insert name here)" posts that seem to pop up in a lot of new doll threads, but that is mostly because I look at the picture and I don't think that X doll looks like Y doll.

There are some legitimate warnings out there, and I wouldn't want to buy a 'recast' doll, or a doll that has been slightly reworked and recast, because I believe it is disrespectful to the original artists (if you want to start a doll company, sculpt your own doll from scratch), so I do think that there is a place for these kinds of threads.

I also, however, wish that people would keep in mind that there are going to be similarities between dolls, and to try to get some evidence before making accusations (Mythdoll Leroi Angel comes to mind... he was being accused of recasting a DoD body, but he himself posted side by side pictures of both bodies on his site, and it was obvious that it was an original sculpt. The only evidence behind that accusation was "I think it looks like..." ).

And, if a company is going to release a doll without releasing a clothing/shoe line along with it, they are going to have to stick with sizing already established by other companies (if you want your doll to be able to wear Dollheart clothing and shoes, you are going to have to sculpt the measurements accordingly.)

I agree with this statement by Armeleia:
"If it were up to me, though, I would rather know something might be a copy before I buy it. Legal proceedings take so long and may never be resolved... and don't really determine if something is a copy anyway. Just whose lawyer is better or who had the money to keep fighting. I can look at photos and make my own judgements... and I would hope that people wouldn't just go "OMG! COPY!!" just because someone else suggested the possibility."

And legal proceedings between two different countries...forget it!

2) Do you feel that DoA should establish hard criteria for the posting of "copying" threads? **

I would hate to add more rules and regulations to the board, and I don't think it would be necessary if people would just think for a bit and try to get some evidence before flinging piracy accusations, which most of those threads have.

 

Honestly? The thing I'd be MOST afraid of would be a company sueing DOA for slander for not being more heavy-handed when it comes to these copying threads.

At the very least, having both dolls on hand for side-by-side comparison photos should be REQUIRED. Before posting ANY alligation. Period.

I would personally also like to insist on a minumum of 5 different angles in 2 different lightings, pics at least 600x800, where the doll is at least 70% of the photo, to ensure enough detail and quality for people to judge.

 

I think DoA has a disclaimer with regard to not being responsible for what people post here, but that doesn't mean a company couldn't cause a legal headache anyway.

The person making the unfounded accusations would be the one for them to go after.

 

Well copieing to means "carbon copy" cant tell the difference in any light or shade copy....and i feel people or companies accused of this that are subsequently proved to have NOT copied should have some way of sueing for slander and liable because as you say its damageing to their reputation which is what the BJD world is founded on.

 

I think about it like one might think about poker in the old American west... you can accuse someone of cheating, but you better be damn sure, or there's going to be a barfight. Someone might even get shot. You know... with imaginary doll internet bullets... =_=

 

Zoi No miko said
"Honestly? The thing I'd be MOST afraid of would be a company sueing DOA for slander for not being more heavy-handed when it comes to these copying threads."

Oh fer Chis sakes, grow up.
It's not DoA's responsiblilty to police, nor support anyone's personal opinions.
The board has been very careful, to always take a position which keeps it safe from libel.


DoA's mods are a smart bunch. The PTB are quite sure they haven't crossed a legal line before they post.

Nuf said...

 

She wasn't hysterical or being childish, that comment is completely unnecessary. She was voicing a concern for the board and it's mods. That's it.

 

In order to be found liable for copyright infringement it does NOT need to be a carbon copy at all. In fact, you can significantly change something by making various additions and still be found liable.

 

I think quite a few people should grow up, frankly.

Just because DOA has said that they are not responsible for user generated content will not stop some people for threatning to sue the forum or even try I'm sure. Just like any other user, I doubt you know everything that goes on behind the scenes.

Back on topic now, I think that if someone suspects that a doll is copied that they post a request in the Photo Request Subforum for pictures of those dolls side by side (assuming they don't have both dolls themselves) and go from there.

Without having both dolls in hand, no one can make any sort of accurate comparison or claim of recasting.

 

I feel it would be more prudent to instead look at the content of people's posts instead of treating them as if they were five for having an opinion/concern/question.

It was already explained quite nicely that DoA has rules and has made precautions to make sure the board itself is safe from anything nasty and legal that may come it's way.

Treating another member as if they were acting like a twelve year old simply because they were in themselves not fully aware of this, is; in my opinion, childish in and of itself.


Back on topic;

As I've stated before, my largest concern when it comes to the copy threads is that there are some people who do not feel there is something wrong with accusing a person/company of something so serious as plagerism on what they deem to simply be a hunch.

I would like to say that people think things out before they post suspicions or make light of these facts, but in some cases they just don't and I find that incredibly unfair not only to the companies they target, but also the ones they attempt to protect.

 

Grow up? If growing up entails being snappy, presumptuous and spelling poorly as you've just exhibited... I fully encourage Zoi to stay young.

Just because Zoi was unaware of the DoA disclaimer does not make her childish Gayle, though your own remarks make me call your maturity into question at this point.

 

Fair enough.

 

Interesting edit.

 

Please drop the personal sniping folks. Gayle, your comment to Zoi was extremely unnecessary.

Let's us get back on topic now. Any further OT bickering will be deleted.

 

When to accuse a company of copying....just my IMHO, never. Unless you have concrete proof, and not just your assumptions, speculations, or suspicions.

I understand the need for vigilance for copied/recast dolls, but some people take it too far sometimes.

Like e-mailing companies to ask them for pics of their doll sculpting process, to prove that they actually sculpted the doll, and not merely recasted it. If I was the company in question, I'd be DEEPLY offended. Wouldn't you? If you are a faceupper/seamstress/sculptor, and someone out of the blue just outright ask you for pics of you doing your work to prove that you actually did the work...isn't that a tad rude to you?

Reading all of those threads about alleged copies, I found a disturbing pattern.

The company in question is always presumed guilty, unless proven otherwise.

 

I really hate the fact that there is so much copying going on in the BJD world.

However, it does get just as old hearing every new company get accused of copying just because there are similarities.....

A tidbit of news...NONE of the bjd companies out there are incredibly original. They all feed on each other. One releases a particular size doll, and then not 6 monthes later another company is now doing the same thing. It goes back and fourth. Yes, i know we are talking about blatent copying, but i just think it's getting a tad out of hand with the accusations that are now flying all over about any new company that dares to exist.