When Is It OK to Accuse a Company of Copying?

I apologize and agree, it was unecessary.

 

This is an interesting topic! By nature I tend to be non-confrontational, so I usually tend to stay out of heated topics or debates, but this one I had some experience in. I posted a thread awhile back that had a male doll line-up, but was mostly in response to the Dollzone/Dollshe thing. I photographed the hands, feet & joints in detail.

When I first purchased my Dollzone Wing I was thrilled with him. I really liked the heft & the poseability of the body, and the large hands.

Then the Dollzone/Dollshe thing came up & I became so uncomfortable with it that I sold my Dollzone body (the new heads are confirmed unique) & my Wing is now on a CP body. And my Hound is just gone ^^;;

I could see both sides & I do consider myself fairly knowledgeable about dolls, plus I had both dolls in hand to do a comparison. However, my findings (TO ME) were inconclusive. The Dollshe/Volks/Unoss/Dollzone joints all looked the same to each other in various degrees.

The opinions in my thread were equally divided - some said they looked exactly alike, some said they were totally different. When it comes to opinions, it is really is subjective.

I think the only way to be conclusive about whether or not a part was copied is to make a cast of it, but I don’t think most doll collectors know how to do this. Posting without proof really hurts reputations - the original poster (especially if they are proven wrong!) and the company - whether they are copying or not.

Bottom line : I really believe that if you have proof, then you should contact the company that you think is being copied & give them your evidence. If it is sufficient, the company will take care of it.

 

Err... Elle? I thought it was Dollshe and Dollmore that were having the issues... Dollzone was being ragged on for other reasons and in relation to other companies... But please don't feel too bad, I often mix the two up in conversation
I have seen both a Wing and a Hound in person, at the same time, and the bodies, proportions and builds are completely different. The only real similarity is the facts that they're both 70cm mature male bodies.

 

I agree, but Dollzone, unlike most other companies, redeemed themselves and realized their mistake. They now make adorable dolls that are entirely their own designs, and they no longer copy. I own a dollzone doll, a Yo-sd sized Doll, and he's UBER cute, and i actually LIKE their dolls now

 

Hi Tro-chan
Dollzone & Dollshe was a topic 08/2006

 

I personally don't believe there's half as much copying going on as some people believe. I think some people have been much too quick to jump the gun on accusations, and it's led to a perception that copying is running rampant throughout the hobby. I've been on this forum for six months, and I've gotten the uncomfortable feeling that anything new or of a certain price bracket is instantly called into question for some reason or another. It isn't reassuring.

That said, I'd want to see solid concrete proof in ANY thread calling attention to 'disturbing similarities' or 'possible copying of XYZ part' or whatever. The title alone in such a thread is an instant accusation (no matter how much the person protests that it isn't), and gives me the impression that the poster has already made their judgement call regarding the topic. Several other posters have already mentioned what constitutes solid proof (side-by-side comparison photos with good lighting and identical angles and so forth, tool marks, et cetera) and I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, I do NOT want to see threads about similarities without that proof. They're unnecessarily inflammatory and off-putting. I personally will be very wary of trusting the judgement of anyone who proves themselves willing to leap to conclusions on issues as serious as accusations of plagiarism. It makes me wonder what else they're willing to leap to conclusions on.

That said, I think people also need to consider the effects these accusations have on those that own dolls from the accused companies. ANY doll, not merely the one in question. It doesn't matter if the allegations are proven to be unfounded; it doesn't matter if the company redeems itself and rebounds from its mistake. The damage is already done, and there are those that will forever look down on said company and the owners of dolls by said company because of it. People ought to consider the full ramifications of their words -- for their own reputations, for the company in question, for the community at large, from a legal standpoint -- before firing potentially dangerous verbal bullets.

 

That's a really good point. When you think of the number of companies and the many variations each company has made, to say copying is running rampant, well, I just don't see that adding up.

As you said, it's most likely all the accusations and attention those get and how long they tend to drag out, that might give some people the perception that it's rampant.

I just don't see it either.

 

There are certainly many good points brought up in this thread. I am new to this whole thing, however, I have seen dezarii's Phantomdoll and the doll is gorgeous. The size is wonderful. In all honesty, I'd happily take it home with me. But I cannot try to buy one despite being tempted. The only reason is that the body is a copy. So, when I hear it is OK to accuse a company of copying I tend to feel that concrete proof is required. I would need to see photographs documenting what exactly is copied, how it was copied and what types of signs confirm it as a copy. This way, I can move on and make an educated decision with regards to my next purchase.

Saying this, however, dezarii's Phantomdoll head is very unique and is not the problem for me. The body is, but I think the sculpt itself is amazing and would definitely buy a head like that to put on another body. I don't think copying part of a doll ruins the originality of the original and unique portions. I also don't feel companies should be boycotted or assumed to be evil incarnate because they make a mistake provided that they correct it and move on the better for it. For instance, I think Dollzone has some beautiful dolls. I will not rule out buying one in the future because they made a mistake. No company is perfect. And neither is any individual. This brings me to my next point.

I really don't like it when people are flamed. If they are wrong and say they are wrong then what is the issue? I don't understand. Forgive and move on. I dont believe that any intelligent individual will doubt a company because of one allegation. In fact, I went to look at the Soom site after reading the thread started by the original poster of the possible Volks copy and plan on adding a Soom doll to my collection - it may even by my next doll instead of a Volks. It depends how jaded I am after Dolpa tomorrow.

On the other hand, I can sympathize with Gayle's perspective. I do not know Gayle, however, I am sensing a lot of defensiveness and I don't blame her. Now, I could totally be seeing this wrongly, and if so, I'm sorry, Gayle. This is what I am sensing: She has a doll she loves and can't truly appreciate and enjoy because people are pointing fingers looking to confirm whether or not it is a copy. Why can't she just enjoy her doll? Why can't the matter be settled by whoever needs to settle the matter and the collectors keep their noses out of it? It is one thing to know the situation - many do and there is a thread on the Dollmore/Dollshe issue - but it is quite another to blatantly go "your doll sucks, because it's a copy" when this is not true. The copier sucks, the doll doesn't and the person who bought it is an innocent victim. And now, the victim suffers because no one will let them enjoy the doll. If someone wants to be left alone... leave them alone.

There is a certain level of respect that is required from all sides. If there are suspicions, PM someone to bounce it off of first just to get things off your chest and discuss the possibilities and what you should do. If there are possible copies, let the owner of that potential copy enjoy the doll. If or when part of that doll is confirmed to be a copy, then is the time to act. Now, however, it is too early to tell in some situations as documented above.

From where I am standing, people seem to be jumping to conclusions on both sides of this issue and looking for a black and white solution, but there are no easy answers here. No one can make an iron-clad rule, unfortunately. It really comes down to trying to see things from other people's perspectives, I think.

But what do I know? I'm new and have a big mouth.

 

Debating does not equal flaming. Putting out opinions or pointing out facts does not equal flaming. 'If they are wrong and say they are wrong' has not occurred. From what I can tell, the reason why this whole debate started is because both sides disagree vehemently and there has been no admittance of 'oops, my bad'. More importantly, this is a debate thread. It's not a demand thread for people to own up to their mistakes. It's a thread that will hopefully put forward more opinions, points and discussions on the topic at hand.

Er. Not sure where you're seeing this but I'm pretty sure there isn't anyone flaming Gayle for owning a Dollmore or a Dollshe.

 

But how often does this actually happen? There has already been one digression in this thread with future digressions being threatened with deletion. I do see your point, and it is certainly a good one, but this is not always true.

No, but there is an insinuation and a general distrust of Dollmore dolls as a direct result of the doll she owns. If someone came and said "Your doll is a copy. Don't post pictures and break apart your doll so the world can confirm it is a copy...blah, blah, blah" well... I'd be likely to decline that as well. I'd just want to enjoy my doll, forum approval or not.

This forum, although a very good one, does tend to be quite harsh where BJD's are concerned. I do understand the allowed doll rules, and I agree with them, but this type of hard line tends to create "purists" of sorts out of members. When this then stretches out to ban copies, it is like a black mark against any member owning them even if it isn't that owner's mistake. This can alienate people and understandly so. It's not the purchaser's fault. It's the company's or more likely the individual artist's doing. Why is the collector made to carry the burden? I do feel that this is a type of flaming, but it isn't as obvious as other kinds.

I do see where you are coming from, though, LKJ. Sorry for not being clearer.

 

I waited until I was home from work to answer this. As one who browses DoA during breaks at work, the copying threads make me the most uncomfortable of any content on this board because any response I would make from a work computer, or even reading them from a work computer, could create a problem for my employer, which is an international company with many clients overseas. There is no way I could know all the businesses we are involved in or the companies being represented. The vast bulk of the content on DoA is not a problem, especially because of the restrictions on questionable sexual content, but I feel the copying threads create a bit of a legal gray area, especially since people from so many countries visit this board and the doll companies are located in so many countries also.
Even assuming the board mods are very smart and prudent and have access to excellent legal counsel at all times, someone made the point that companies and people who feel themselves under fire might resort to legal action. Plus, the international law/ jurisdictional aspects of any such action would be complex even for a legal expert. I wouldn't want to get myself or my employer tangled up in any of that, however inadvertently or as an innocent bystander. I don't think this is a concern that can be easily dismissed and it seems like accusations of copying could be handled in a better or perhaps less public way than a discussion thread.

 

Ah, alright. I thought you were referring to the Soom and Volks matter since you referred to that in the same paragraph. The one digression had little to do with the topic at hand though. It seemed more like a random lost of temper and people calling it out. However, the rest of the thread debating of how the matters concerning possible or not so possible piracy should be handled has been done without any flaming so far as I can see.

Oh, okay. I know there are Dollmore owners who felt the pressure at one point which is one of the reasons why I lean so heavily on using caution before posting threads on copying. I thought that you were talking about gayle being discriminated on this thread. Another misunderstanding, my bad. ^_^;

I do agree that these days, we've become more eager to jump on dolls that 'seem' copied. Whether or not the companies' reputations are damaged (though I believe that to some extent, they are), I do feel that the owners of the dolls tend to bear the brunt of these threads instead, directly or indirectly.

 

I'd have to agree...

There is so much that happens around us that we have suspision of, yet we do nothing about it.

These are dolls folks, if it is for some reasson eatting away at you that you feel another company has copied your favorite doll, shouldn't you notify the company.

A collectors site, in my opinion, is hardly the place for it. Perhpas some of us have too much time on our hands.

If you, as a consumer are concerned voice it to the companies. Posting it in any public forum, especially one in typed format, with-out substancial proof IS slander.

As far as I knew, the vast majority of those on this site are only collectors and in no way associated with the actual producers; leave any discussion to those it truly effects.

Other wise it just seemes to be a waste of time and space, and alot of needless drama.

P.S. If there is not a patent on specific design points of the dolls, it's not copying.

 

Let's start with...

*rolls eyes*

1. Uh duh you need a patent...reread that one.

2. Like I said, if you feel that a company is copying and you have to do something about it write to those people who are invested in the company, and I'm not talking about buying the product...

3. If you think because you buy a companies products you are in some way assosicated with the company tell that to the people who actually work there.

4. That's the thing, if you are not a member of any of the affected comapnies, all the "proof" you may think you have, is nothing but some random person's opinions.

5. If the company does NOT have a patent on design, then yes dear, any company may, in fact, copy it.

 

well well well..here's another can of worms

"When is it OK to accuse a company of copying"

IMHO - when there is incontrovertable proof and legal advise has been taken. I don't think it is for us to accuse anyone but i suppose that if an individual suspects that a doll has been copied they can always contact the company and inform them of the 'copyist' and let them take care of it.
I would have thought that to be certain of a copy you would have to have them side by side in front of you before you could check all the tiny details, relying on images from websites etc does'nt quite work and even if you are 100% certain that a doll has been copied it's not for you or me or anyone to accuse a company publicly.....let the companies involved thrash it out - legally!

We do have to be somewhat careful of what we write here on DoA even with the disclaimers in place. It's just not worth risking DoA's reputation is it?

I used to waffle on about this and that not caring really what i said just spewing out the first opinion that sprung to mind but having been proved wrong in the past i think i have learned my lesson and don't advocate writing anything about companies reputatations, business practices etc if i don't truly know the truth!

Let the big boys sort it out - they can look after their own interests

Gossip can be bad for your health

 

Uh, duh, that is not the case in terms of the rules of DoA. If a doll is proven to be a recast copy, it is not permitted on our privately-run forum.

Whether or not a company can legally get away with copying in terms of international law is different from whether a doll that has been proven to be a copy to the *mods'* satisfaction will be allowed on DoA or banned.

As far as I know, neither Luts nor Volks has been able to get an injunction against Lolidoll (because China has such different copyright and patent laws), but they're still banned, because they're obviously recasts of existing molds.

When it comes to the 'Frankendolly' debate (whether or not *parts* of a doll are copied), things get muddier, and there aren't any clear answers at this time (we take it on a case-by-case basis) -- but we definitely do reserve the right to set the rules for our own forum, and copied dolls are not welcome here.

-- A

 

Like many others have said, before these threads are posted, there should be "substantial evidence."

I agree that instead of immediately banning a company, a copy thread allows others to review the theory, debate, and encourage discussion. It lets others know of a possible danger, and for them to make their own opinions. Simply posting one of these threads does not automatically convince people, especially when they have no merit.

However, I do agree, when these accusations are based on nothing, are posted in fits of irrational accusatory rants, they're simply a waste of time, and can, truly, be harmful - to the company and its customers. What's the point in devoting your time and obsessing over the most inconsequential detail to make ridiculous, and, sometimes, downright far-fetched accusations? Even if disproved, potential buyers may be frightened off simply by all the negative feedback that company wrongly withstood.

An excess amount of these types of threads makes it harder to root out the ones that actually may be based on truth. So, the real danger may have been spotted, but once it becomes buried in a slew of similar threads, how can any truth be found?

Yes, I believe that these threads should continue, but with careful reviewing. Perhaps each of the threads submitted to Dolly Debate should be reviewed and approved by Mods first, like in the Artist's Dolls section. (As I have not tried submitting a thread to Dolly Debate, I apologize if this is already done.)

 

I think he meant that it's really not up to the members of a BJD forum to accuse a company of anything. As he stated, this is just slander, and can get you in a heap of trouble if thrown at the wrong person/company. If anything, the members who are concerned should be spending their energy notifying the company, just in case no one has, instead of wasting the energy typing it on a forum where nothing can be done about it.

And yet we can still do NOTHING but notify the company of our opinions and see if they too feel the dolls are being copied. As MichaelMichael said, on a doll forum, it is strictly an opinion. NOT a fact. A fact is information achieved through careful investigation by a professional attorney, or investigator, not a collector.

Actually, In defense of MichaelMichael, what you are saying is, in fact, incorrect. For things you have recorded, or written, or art on canvas, you only need a copyright. However, if your art piece/object of invention takes 3 dimensional form, you need a PATENT as well as a copyright. Copyrights only protect names and words used in your creation's title, and body. A patent is needed for objects. I took this directly from my old class texts on Copyright law. (Had to take two semesters of it, when schooling for computer animation at the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale.....positively the most BORING class known to man)
So, if your work is written/recorded or canvas art, then it can be protected by copyright. However, Patents are needed for objects of invention or 3d format. This includes dolls, toys, tools, cars, doors, furniture, etc. (i'm sure you get my drift)

A good example of this is the Barbie doll. The color "Barbie pink" is a protected color through copyright and trademark. Ironically enough, the name "Barbie" and "Ken" and all other names in her world cannot be protected, as they are human names, and everyone has the right to use them. They are only protected in reference to a doll. However, for Mattel's beloved doll to be completely protected, the doll's mold, looks and likeness had to be protected by a patent. The colors are only protected by copyright and trademark. And yes, believe it or not, "Barbie Pink" is a protected color that Mattel created LMAO (Still trying to figure that one out....it cost me ten points on a test when i answered incorrectly that a color cannot be protected) The band "Aqua" lost their lawsuit to Mattel not for using the name "Barbie" in their hit song "Barbie girl", but for utilizing the exact shade of "barbie pink" that was on their famous playline of dolls' boxes.....they had to pay heft fines and royalties for that song.

Another little tidbit on the end note.....Copyrights and such only protect in reference to something that can be percieved as a competitor. In other words, if i bought a blue car, and called it my "Dollfie", i could not be sued, as it is in no way, shape or form a competition of any company using Dollfie as a copyright protected product. My sale of my car called a "Dollfie" would not interfere with a companies sale of their dolls called "Dollfie". haha just thought that was a cool fun fact Now once i airbrushed photos of "dollfies" on the side of my car and sold it as my "Dollfie car", i could be in serious trouble.

 

Dolls would be covered by both copyright and patent law. While patents must be filed and registered, copyrights are protected upon creation.