When Is It OK to Accuse a Company of Copying?

That's a really good point you just made, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth to it. I've seen several comments on the board about "how there's so much copying going on", but I honestly haven't seen that much that had really good proof attached.

 

I think this is a good point, because a coorelation could be made with how loyal particular collectors are to a particular company. That loyalty can be distorted in some respects with regards to how new(er) companies in the market are perceived.

This is why I personally feel that it really comes down to simply enjoying the dolls for me. Copy or no copy, until it is proven as stated multiple times before, by a legal authority I am not going to believe it. If it doesn't go to a legal authority then I'm not going to base any merit on it either. Why should I? It's not my "job" to "police" the industry. My place is to enjoy the dolls for what they are - an interest. But, as stated before, some people's "interest" often lies with one or a few companies, and this automatically makes the others inferior in their eyes.

I understand that people are more passionate than I am about BJD's, but frankly, swinging false accusations around or publicizing accusations without contacting the organizations or companies involved with concrete proof does not show anything except an unconstrained zeal for being an "expert". Well, hate to break any hearts, but no one on this board is an "expert" on copying unless they have worked in the industry as a legal research analyst on the subject. Even then, it would be a huge area of gray considering all the backroom dealings occurring in many industries in Asia that occur in languages other than English. I mean, how much of the business side of things do we really know? I'm guessing not much.

In the end, I think this board has enough "rules" for the purists out there who need validation for their collections. Let the discussion threads about possible copies continue. I think this debate thread is enough to send the message to those who want to start them - do your homework before you make the allegations. In the end, though, I think the discussion is valid, but acting on that discussion as "proof" for "banning" dolls is not. That's asking for legal action and could have some pretty nasty consequences if the assumptions made are inaccurate.

 

You're right. That's not an idle question. That's a Straw Man argument. It's every bit as absurd as if I were to say that everyone that posts a copying thread is going, "zOMG this doll has two eyes and a nose, just like that other one!!!!1!1one!" The discussion would be a lot easier if it were that black-or-white, but there's a lot more to it than that.

 

This may sound like a simple unbased argument to some out there but I think people state "accusations" like that as a discussion starter about the dolls. I dont think people take it as seriously as "They should sue!" or something. Stating that two dolls look similar souldnt have to be monitored by "criteria."

 

You clearly need to do your research. People crying "COPY!" is taken a lot more serious than you seem to think. Key word in there being COPY. This wasn't someone saying these dolls looked SIMILAR, this was someone saying "omg DollA totally looks like a COPY of DollB."

In this hobby a lot of people feel very strongly about creative theft and copying. Someone has put months/years of their lives into creating these dolls. Many, MANY people in this hobby will not buy from/deal with companies and artists who have been accused of creative theft. Just look at Oceanmoon... if you've even been in this hobby long enough to know who they are.

 

I think that's a little harsh. I'd wager that more than a few people who have been in this hobby for awhile may not be completely familiar with Oceanmoon, or with the details of any one of the many "OMG ZA COPY!!!" threads being discussed here.

That said, Personally, I am intimately familiar with the most recent one, as it centered around my brand new doll and basically ruined my first week or so with her. As it is, she'll always have that "Oh that's the doll everyone thought was a copy!" thing attached to her at meets, etc. As for the serious nature of claims like this, I have to agree that even when they are proven false, the stigma remains. It may just be coincidence, but I can't help but notice that while quite a few people said they wanted to buy a DollSoom Mint when she was first released, since that thread, I haven't seen any others besides my girl on DoA. I do know at least a couple more were ordered before the accusations were made, but I can't help but wonder if just the question being raised stopped some folks from getting her. As has been mentioned, not everyone follows up with every thread they come across. If a thread says "THIS DOLL LOOKS LIKE A COPY!", and then a week later that is proven false, it's a good bet that quite a few people won't ever get around to reading the resolution. It may seem like splitting hairs, but if someone absolutely feels they have reason to believe a new doll is a copy and they feel compelled to share their thoughts, I would rather see it done in a single post in the existing discussion thread, than in a whole new thread devoted entirely to building the case. The certainty with which one states their suspicions also makes a difference to me. There is a big difference between "Gee these two dolls look oddly alike to me, but what do you all think?" and "I am sure that this is a recast and here's why: ... "

 

misa1, I apologize if it seemed harsh. I was just really put off, and irritated with the statement that "none of these accusations are taken seriously" like TT was some sort of authority, when s/he clearly hasn't been a member of this forum long enough to be knowledgable of what's gone on, forget being some sort of expert.

 

When is it OK to Accuse a Company of Copying?
When it comes to Molds-
When you have hard evidence. I'm talking DollA next to DollB and it's a clear clear match that they are copies w/or w/out minor changes. Minor changes being DollA is almost identical to DollB except one corner of the mouth is turned down. But everything else down to the insides are the same. If I have doubts about it then it's not a copy until the company comes forward and points some fingers.

When it comes to personal Dolls-
When people confuse your doll for mine. If I have one person that fine but after the sixth pm I'll raise an eyebrow. If I find everything is the same but in different color scheme, down to the back story..... I'm going to find out what's going on.

 

Your use of quotes around the word 'accusations' makes me inclined to believe that you either think we're overstating the situation or that you haven't read the various threads that have been devoted to the topic. (I believe someone linked to a few earlier in this thread.) People may not outright say "they should sue", but they don't need to. The moment someone says they think ABC company's doll is 'uncomfortably similar to' XYZ's company's doll the damage is done, both to the company's reputation and the spirits of those who had purchased the doll being questioned, or had been planning to. (Mind you, this is merely my own interpretation of your phrasing.)

A discussion starter about the dolls would be something to the effect of 'look, here's XYZ new doll, what do you think'. What we're talking about is people coming right out and saying 'here's XYZ doll and it looks a LOT like ABC doll, I think they're copying what do you think'. That is NOT a discussion starter. That's potential libel. There is something of a difference between the two.

I'm of the opinion that any discussion/speculation about the veracity of these claims should take place behind the scenes until there is cold, hard, solid evidence that infringements are taking place. The effects of unfounded accusations reach much too far for them to be flung about with impunity.

 

Sorry to bump in. I just saw the name Oceanmoon...

I know this is not a place for accusing/arguing them, but since I am a fan of their work I just can't help asking: How much is needed for them to prove that they are not?

They posted an article on their website and I heard(poked around Korean net enough) to see there were personal problems going on just to destroy their business by a fellow doll creator who they believed as a friend.

Sorry if I made anyone feel offended, but even here in DOA I saw some threads about this. But from the owners who own Oceanmoon stuff - some don't care, some swear that they are not. They even post their work-in-progress photos I know they are doing it because they are concious about those. How can someone show their honesty better than this?

I don't know if Oceanmoon creators have access to see all these but I really wish they don't. There accusations are false and they'd be really hurt and lose their motivation if they see them. Personally since I know who is the other doll creator who tried to destroy Oceanmoon I'd LOVE to see that one gets some justice. That company is quite famous here, but also has some problems among DOA users...

Sorry for being so long.

 

Gene, no one was accusing Oceanmoon of copying. It was exactly the opposite in fact. I was simply making the point of how false/groundless accusations can damage a company greatly.

 

If you go back and re-read what sleep_pattern said, you'll see that Oceanmoon was being referred to here as an example of how a good company can be hurt by careless claims of copying. Her statement was in defense of companies like Oceanmoon, as well as the others affected by copying allegations. Although, in it's own way, your response almost proves what many of us in this thread are saying about copying allegations. There are so many threads, and so many individual posts, on DoA, that people don't always read thoroughly. Name of a Company + COPYING = This company is being accused of copying. You can come right out and say: "Company X has been proven innocent of copying", but the only thing people will interpret is the company name and that they were implicated in a copying accusation.

 

I think it's okay to state your opinion on whether or not you think they are copying to an extent. I think you should have substantial evidence before you accuse someone of copying.

 

Outside of just casually stating an opinion I don't know why anybody would even bother.
Is it really nessesary?
I guess I'm wondering what would accusing a company of copying achieve.

 

It would stop a lot of other people from buying their products--most people here don't want bootleg dolls, and wrecking the reputation of a company is a good way to kill a large volume of their business. It also has the by product of creating a lot of drama on the forum and is hard on owners who own dolls of accused companies.