Why are so many boy dolls so girly?

I have been looking at the minimee posts lately and it seems to me that lots of people are having manly scuplts made (like Gerald Butler, Leonidas from 300). It seems like if folks aren't happy with girly boys that they are having them custom made.
Denny really does wonderful custom work, if you haven't looked, you should check it out.

 

Sorry, I was trying to be funny and clearly didn't succeed. I'm quite familiar with the subject--all those histories of homosexuality during my coming-out years, don't you know. Can't forget, though, that there was a lengthy debate in Persian culture on the virtues of the "smooth cheek" vs. the "first beard"--did facial hair make a boy unacceptable as a love object, or did the first fuzz make his beauty even more ephemeral and precious (mono no aware, anyone?)

To me, the negative reactions to "girly boys" smack of homophobia, pure and simple. Not that I'm accusing ANYONE on this board of homophobia, by no means! I am speaking of the general public and all of the "nah, that can't be a guy!" reactions dollfans have gotten. Personally, I'm a huge fan of androgyny, but it scares and disturbs a lot of people. I think it comes down to the fear that one will suddenly find oneself attracted to the "wrong" gender and having "wrong" sex (i.e., not heterosexual, male-dominant sex), and that would be...bad...for some reason...ummm...

 

LOL I thought it was an observation drawing a parallel between the standard of beauty in classical antiquity and the standard of beauty in the ABJD community now XD

I don't think it's homophobic to dislike "girly boys" in most cases in this community. As far as I've seen, in both this thread and the similar thread in the Debate Subforum, most people dislike the "girly boy" doll because it's a stereotype. These same people have no problem with a doll couple composed of two men who are not "girly boy" types. Outside of the doll community though, I agree homophobia as a cause isn't a stretch at all.

 

I can certainly agree that I don't think it's homophobia exactly, but I would argue that in addition to the rejection of the trend ACXchan suggests, it's also something like heterosexism, but for gender. because I've noticed that the way people talk about it is a little stronger than the way they talk about other trends that tire people out...such as Els in general, or gothic/punky clothes. maybe that's just because the topic relates to sex & gender, and we're all a little more passionate about those topics, but I think it's also because in addition to resisting the fad people are feeling challenged in a way they don't want to be.


(heterosexism, if you're not sure, is the term coined for the way that even people who nominally have no objection to homosexuality will, for example, tend to assume that everyone is straight, not acknowledge certain things as real issues for society, not educate themselves on topics surrounding gay rights (why do gay people even care whether or not they can be legally married? surely it's enough that they can be common-law in many places?), be strong proponents of "don't ask, don't tell," etc.)

 

undermost salamander: I'm still waiting for more of those masculine amazon women dolls to come along XD

This whole topic inspired me to start a new thread in Dolly Debate @D@

 

I realize that I'm joining this thread a few days late but it is something that I have a rather decided opinion on. I'm fairly new to the whole world of BJDs... I first encountered them when I spent a month visiting Teddy (who started this thread) and fell in love with his dolls. I came home determined to have my own and began to do some research. I looked at all the dolls of every company I could find, and I became very frustrated by the fact that most of the "girls" I liked, turned out to be boys.

In fact, I was surprised that most most of the male dolls were what I would consider "pretty boys" - I have never liked them in real life and I can't say I like them any better as dolls. I am a part of the minority that would like some dolls that look like MEN! Thankfully, there is the Elfdoll Mir, which will hopefully lead the way. Now, if only they will add some flesh and muscle to them, so that so many of them don't look emaciated I will be even happier.

I'm steering clear of all the political aspects this thread, but I do want to say that the multiple and repeated comments that muscles are "feakish" and "gross" are offensive. Yes, you are entitle your opinion, but you don't have to shove it down everyone else's throat. How would you like it if I said your likeing girly-looking boys was pathetic and disgusting? Or How about, if you eat meat you are a mudering, disgusting savage? Get the idea yet?

I for one, happen to like muscular men, and proud of the fact that my husband goes to the gym everyday - it is a healthy activity he enjoys. Just because your taste differs from other people's doesn't mean that you need to publicly denigrate the differences. Ok, I think I've said enough, I won't shove my foot in my mouth any further.

 

gilshallos...--applaude--.xD

Hee hee! awesome..xD --still giggling--

I like a bit of muscle on men..xD But I don't mind pretty boys either...and I part of an even SMALLER minority who like both?

But really == Most of the "Manly" body types DO look scary...

I'm trying to find a good one so that I can make it cosplay Tidus from Final Fantasy X (oooh yeah man..xD)

OH! ACXchan;; What kind is your doll? In your avatar...TKO VOlks? (judging by your sig..xD)

 

I like me some manly men too. The "girly" boys look too much like they are trying to acheive femininity better than girls. It's almost like girly men are saying they can be better women than, well, women Such a bizzare phenomenon.

I know this hobby caters to the crazed yaoi fangirl, but I am glad to see there are more masculine sculpts out there for us anomalies ^_^

 

Gilshallos: to clarify the "gross" muscle comment, i'd like to point out the differences in my opinion. Nicely developed muscles from doing sports, like well build arms, leg, and torso muscles are ok. (unless steroids are involved XD) However, it seems like there are people who think muslces automatically means bodybuilder, sterioids, and so on. Living humans who manage to look as muscular as the effing incredible hulk? ew. thats unnatural, i think. thats...as bad for boys as anorexic models and barbies are for girls.
...and stating my opinion isnt shoving it down anyones throat....>>;;

However, comparing that to " How would you like it if I said your likeing girly-looking boys was pathetic and disgusting? " ...now that? THat'd be offensive. Actually. significantly moreso than the comment that girls liking girlyboys are probably in the closet, because theres nothing to back it up. Of course, it might also be because you stated it as a fact, not an opinion...(and i just wok up so my mind is horribly overannalytical)


When it comes down to it, i think the dolls are influenced by anime and pop culture so much taht it only makes sense for them to be this way. (and i'm using only wha ti know here, so please feel free to add or correct anything) For those of us into anime or japanese music, how many times have we had friends or parents or anyone mention "wow, she's really pretty" only to break the ice and tell them its a guy? I think its sort of an acquired skill to be able to tell them apart sometimes XD
But when you really think about it, how many of the uber popular characters are well build it anime? And popular music stars? I mean, you can't possibly tell me that a Gackt figurine is going to look like the hulk. Heck, he's more likely to cause anorexia for the young and impressionable ^^;

 

I find girly-men incredibly attractive. Yet I can accept that most men aren't like that. In dolls, I like girly boys. I want something pretty or cute. I'm not fond of overly masculine. Having said that, I like IH muscle body and the Model Doll Kyle Reese. My boys are both fairly masculine in personality, they just don't look it. I can also distinctly tell that they are 'male' although that might be because I know they have a bit between their legs.

I don't find muscles disgusting, I just don't find them attractive *shrug* I'm assuming there are others like me.

 

Torren, you are entitled to your opinions on the esthetics of muscle. That is not the issue. What I am objecting to, and what you seem to have completely missed the entire point is, when you are writing about it, make it *your* opinion, rather than trying to force your view on others. That is how the various "muscles are gross" comments came across, and that is what was so offensive. Try saying something like "I think that nicely developed muscles from doing sports, like well build arms, leg, and torso muscles are ok." That is one opinion, yours. There are a great many people who think that Arnold Schwarzenegger from is Mr. Universe and Mr. Olympia days had the perfect body. It is just a difference in opinion of what is beautiful. Anyway, I see that you injecting the personal at the end of the paragraph. I did plan this to be a flame war and I realize I came off a trifle confrontational, but I would like to think that people will at least think before writing ill of others. Now that we are completely off-topic...

As for dolls being based on anime (I can't answer to any Asian pop music since I'm not familar with it at all). What I find rather fascinating is that so many of the male anime charaters that I can think of are a lot more muscular (although it is lean muscle) than their clothed figures would suggest, such as: Benitora in Samurai Deeper Kyo, and Goku, Gojyo, Hakkai, Sanzo, from Sayuki, and various characters in Bleach to name just a few. So I find it kind of odd that that the doll makers don't make at least some dolls more muscular like a number of the anime characters are drawn.

Oh, Torren, you mention it being an acquired skill to tell male and female dolls apart? It isn't just dolls - it can be a problem for humans too. I could tell some amusing stories from when I was a teenager but I believe sharing personal stories are frowned upon...

 

True. It's not just dolls that are gender-bending. There ARE some people out there who cannot tell the difference between males and females...in a human sense..xD

It's pretty funny actually..xD

 

There are dolls with the physique of the people you mentioned. I mean, these characters aren’t overly muscular. (Not that there is anything wrong with it, could you imagine seeing a Super Seiya-jin 3 Vegita doll!!! @_@ HAH!) My doll looks like that, his natural face almost looks out of place because of his muscular body!

And, I agree with Torren with thinking that telling if’s a girl or a boy has become an acquired skill—and a fun sport! I am heavily into the J-rock and had my room filled with these handsome musicians. They were on my notebooks and cds and I relished in the fact that when the “manly men” at school saw these beauties I could snicker to myself and say.. “Um.. dude, they’re guys!” and watch as they back away in horror! I by no means mean that I can always tell what gender someone/thing is but, I’ve been right 90% of the times.

Watching anime I have been used to the girly boy-ness and honestly it doesn’t phase me. I think it’s mean to tell anyone they are wrong, because that is their opinion and you can never know how you will affect them, but that is a different topic!!

And the people from Saiyuki.. from what I remember, are “pretty boys” in the definition I give the term!

 

Gilshallos: o.0; I was pretty sure i said in all of my posts that it was my opinion....i'm truly sorry if i didnt, especially since thatw as one of the things i pointed out after x.x;;; oops ^^;; And thinking back, i'm pretty sure i was rather confrontational too.

I know there are some anime characters (usually shounen anime, i believe) who are more well built. Im not familiar with Samurai deeper kyo, but saiyuki, i know taht well (=D) Looking back they arent the uber twiggy guys a lot of anime has, but they arent uber muscular either. they sort of remind me of the CP senior delf bodies, only with a six pack instead of a twelve XD

As for the acquired skill, its dolls, anime characters, jrock/asian music stars, and real people XD My mom and i actually had an argument over whether this one kid was a guy or girl. i swore it was a girl. I was quite embarressed when i found out he was a guy later on XD

 

I am going to have to put myself in with the group who likes the more muscular body types. I don't own a doll yet, but I find myself more drawn to bodies like the Senior Delf and Hound. I figure if the girls are going to have "mature" versions, the guys should too. For my taste, though, I think there's plenty body-wise to pick from.

The face ups, though. That's a different story. American (straight) men do not wear makeup. I know from taking a Theatrical makeup class in school that is is very difficult to make someone up without making them look made up. Having a good "clean" look is like the holy grail of doing theatrical stage makeup, esp with men.

I can see the same problem with the faceups. You have to put something on them but how far is too far? When does it stop being clean and start being feminine?
Even if the manly structure is there, too much eyeliner makes a man look (to Western eyes) feminine.


and BTW Gilshallos, I think it's very rude to type in "how would you like it if I said ..." as a means of giving yourself permission to say something really nasty. I think it's equally as rude to then act indignant when people respond to your having said something genuinely nasty.

 

The whole pretty boy thing is probably because the majority of collectors are girls. I dont know about other girls but I'd rather have a pretty boy then a masculine sculpt. And I've seen a lot of women and girls here on DOA that lean more towards the Pretty Boys too. (Some of us just have a weird fixation with pretty gay boys like my sister O_O)
Again it all depends on the person. Toushiro is CONSTANTLY being mistaken for a girl even in his grungy jeans and t-shirt look...and his hair isnt even long. (Its puffy though XD) Though now that I have a girl more people seem to realize that our Resin family consists of 2 boys and a girl...Probably due to the fact that Itsume has a bust XD

 

This is just a theory, but could it be because in Asia ( where the dolls are coming from, predominantly Korea and Japan mind you) there has always been a facination with androgenous males? I mean, think of the traditional theater arts in those countries. When they were the predominent attraction the men who played women were WORSHIPPED by women and men alike. Also think of the whole J-rock genere in japan. Girls faint at the site of someone like Mana and he always looks like a " girl" or genderless. So maybe thats why?

 

Think New York Dolls/the Sweet, only with Japanese lads.