Why are we always trying to accuse copies?

For me, this is a perfect illustration of the topic, of how accusations can arise.

I have to say, I look at the Puns/Mikhaila comparison pictures and see different angles to the shoulders and clavicles, different breasts, differences in how the bottom of the torso is formed, differences in the shape of the pelvis, different calves, very different feet, and enormously different heads and faces. I see that they've both got similar silhouettes and that they share a type of hip joint. To me, they are very clearly different dolls with only superficial similarities. Obviously, other people see them differently.

In my relatively short time here, I've seen people accuse a head sculpt of being a copy because they felt it looked similar to another sculpt, where others immediately pointed out the differences. Ditto for a topic on two different anthros, of a single animal type, in which some people felt they were too similar and others disagreed.

People are bound to see things differently, and in a hobby in which people can be very emotionally involved -- and in which there is a genuine presence of bootlegging and illegal copying to be wary of -- it can easily lead to people jumping the gun and spotting problems where they might not exist.

 

^This. Especially if there are fans of either company involved. I have to say though, I don't care about D.D or Leeke. I see the resemblance in both sculpts, but I don't see a direct copy; there are too many differences.
When a company tries something new, there are bound to be others who'll add the same thing in their design. Unoa was the first to produce mature mini's and now look how many there are. And I remember when Soom released their SD-body with lower hipjoint, I thought it was a direct copy of CP Delf, especially because the style was also similar.

I don't have a problem with companies using features someone else 'invented', I do have a problem when the doll is an actual recast. Leeke's doll is not a recast of Pün. They can't be, because the size is too different. (

One question I do have though: when Soom released their monthlies, not long after other companies released similar dolls. Although there was a small outrage in the community, another prominent opinion was: "Wiiiieeeh, cheap monthly dolls!"
Why has the D.D vs. Leeke discussion been going on for so long, when the monthlies vs cheap monthlies one died out relatively quickly? What's the difference?

 

Good point

I personally suspect it has something to do with the perception that 'bigger companies' can take the hit, whereas 'smaller companies' can't. People see the popularity of companies like Soom and Leeke and the range of products that they sell, so the perception is that these companies are very large, with numerous employees, in comparison, people are also aware that there are just two artists at Dust of Dolls and that newer companies comprise of maybe one or two artists too.

It is important to remember that an effective ordering system and slick, polished website does not mean that the company you are ordering from is richer, more powerful or bigger than any other. All BJD companies are by nature small (with the obvious exception of Volks), Soom is not a large company, Leeke is not a large company. There may be more people working there than the two artists at Dust of Dolls in order to have an effective doll production line going, but not a great deal more workers.

The majority of us like to support the underdog, that's the reason why so many people were angry with Leekeworld; there was the impression that because Leekeworld was a bigger company and had more contacts in the BJD world that it was unfair of them to 'copy' a design from a smaller business. However, Leekeworld was doing something that all artist have done from the dawn of time - see something they liked and adapted it themselves. Most doll companies do this, take a look at what everyone else is working on and try it for themselves - the double-joint revolution began this way with a couple of artists trying it and then others giving it a go. It's not strictly copying, but neither is it entirely original, but no BJD has been entirely original for a significant amount of time now - there was a type of BJD around in Roman times, and there are only so many ways a doll can be jointed and put together

The other side of this coin is how people are willing to support smaller, newer companies' versions of stylised dolls originally produced by a 'bigger company'; Impldoll frequently designs and produces fantasy dolls, naturally in response to the demand generated by the first generation of fantasy dolls created by Soom. It's an excellent business model, they know there is a demand for this type of doll and their creations have not (to my knowledge) overlapped with or stepped on the toes of the dolls created by Soom. However, it is still copying of a sort, isn't it? Without Soom first paving the way, there would be no demand for fantasy dolls and other companies would be unlikely to trailblaze in the same way Soom did.

If Leekeworld can be hung out to dry over doing something artists have always done - admire and adapt - why are Impldoll not facing the same disapproval? Or even ResinSoul because of their hooved dolls?

A person's conscience is more malleable than we like to think. Clearly there are levels of copying that people are more comfortable with than others. Big company copies little company = outrage, business theft... Little company copies big company = hooray, cheap doll!!!111!1

 

It's not just the Mikhaila/Dust of Dolls 'scandal'. There are still people bringing up the fact that Dollzone recast a doll even though they now have their own sculpts. I see so many instances of 'inspiration' around the place, companies borrowing popular ideas from other companies. Yes, it's tough that two student artists had a company offer a similar designed body, but the reality is that at present, pear shaped bodies are popping up all over the place, it appears to be the new trend. Doll Chateau, Kaye Wiggs, Twigling all have pear shaped dolls, not to mention others. I think people will find that experimenting with body shapes is likely to be the next trend. Fantasy seems to have burnt out a little and companies are always on the lookout for something new. Doll Chateau's popularity is likely to inspire more imitators. Who knows what will follow after that? I'm sure some of the companies following the trend will get accused of copying as well. As mentioned before, there are only so many ways to reinvent the wheel. Similar joints, similar shapes etc. It all seems to happen regularly.

 

Hobbysue, I agree with you. It's less about copying and more about following trends, I believe. The tall, thin Doll Chateau look isn't unique to Doll Chateau, it's just that they are popular at the moment, other companies have been there before like Dollshe, Shinydoll and Rosette Doll. Doll Chateau has incorporated those thin styles with the wide-hipped look to create something that is new and also similar at the same time.

It still doesn't explain why some companies are pillioried for following a trend and others are not. The wide hips and inverted hip/thigh joint is quite popular among French sculptors - Leeke may have been next to D.D at the LDoll Festival, but Puns would not have been the only doll they observed with that style of body or style of jointing. If it is acceptable to trend in France, why is it not acceptable to trend elsewhere in the BJD hobby?

Since the majority of BJDs are modeled after human shapes, and there are finite human shapes available, it just goes to show that there are also finite ways of sculpting a doll.

(I'm also typing without my glasses, I apologise for any terrible spelling )

 

My opinion on the whole 'copying' thing (not to be confused with recasts) - show me one doll, just one made in the last year that wasn't influenced by another doll in some way.

In terms of the Dust of Dolls Puns - prove to me that this is a 100% unique first edition never-before-seen doll with absolutely zero influences from anywhere else in the BJD hobby. Once I see either of those things I'll jump right on the bandwagon :P

In the meantime, I'll continue to covet lovely Mikhaila

 

Yes, there seems to be a lot of selective amnesia when it comes to these issues. I think you hit the nail on the head earlier with the perception of a large company vs a couple of artists, which of course isn't quite the case, but I've heard numerous comments along the lines of how awful it was that big companies can get away with ripping off small artists. Perhaps a lack of understanding about what abjd companies are really like is fueling some of this along with not knowing some of the history behind certain abjd (and in this case also art doll) trends.

What really bothers me about the whole thing is that the sense of proportion to the whole issue has gotten really skewed -- it's one thing for a person to decide that two dolls are a little too similar for their own comfort level and quietly refrain from buying, but it's another when people start treating the Leeke/Dust of Dolls business on the same level as actual recasts. And people can cite evidence that Leeke was at the same doll show, and was taking pics of Puns etc etc, but they have to realize on some level (or at least they should realize) that companies are studying each others dolls all the time -- it's like if they aren't told about it directly, then it either doesn't matter or didn't happen which is naive at best and hypocritical at worst.

Yes, I've been thinking the same thing about body shapes -- it's kind of the next abjd frontier to explore, and there certainly seems to be a lot of interest in different body shapes among hobbyists too.

 

The Leeke thing steps over the line for me on many levels - the deliberateness of the taking of pictures, th ephotoshopping, the lying, and just way too much similarity in general - the art doll body is much, much closer to the Puns body than any other pear-shaped bodies are to each other. I don't think it will really damage Dust of Dolls, the original was an exquisite doll with that indefinable living quality that gets called "magic" and the Leeke doll is a bland child-porn face slapped hastily onto a womanly MSD doll, there's absolutely no comparison in artistry and very probably no overlap in the market. But it must be incredibly infuriating to see someone "heavily inspired" by your work that then denies and denies and denies it, or comes up with silly childish counter-accusations ("Puns has Unoa's legs!")

I'd actually have more respect if they had just said, "Yeah, we thought it was really cool, we tried to make it bigger, we think we have the 5% or whatever difference needed to be legal" rather than claiming spontaneous originality.

Fantasy trends were a part of this hobby long before Soom monthlies. There was a plethora of elves and vampires and elf-vampires and little horns, and the themes are generally culturally available and in the same heap, so to speak, so I don't see the hooved dolls as being the same degree of direct inspired. Certainly they don't give me the impression Leeke do that it was another case of Barbie, of Mattel taking Lilli to their factories and openly saying "Can we make this cheaper?" Or sculptors sitting around with pictures of Puns trying to make her on a bigger scale.

(But, are people seriously trying to claim there was no abuse of ResinSoul or ImplDoll for "copying"? How short some memories are!)

In general, I'd like more pear-shaped dolls, as it is the most seductive and beautiful of shapes in real women, but Mikhaela steps over the line for me.

Not going to debate this particular one any longer, but for people who insist Leeke didn't deliberately copy and that it's a hobby norm, I have this lovely bridge I'm trying to get rid of. But really, I guess, it's that we draw our lines at different places. I can't change where anyone draws theirs, but I'm not going to pretend my line isn't there, either.

 

See that's all well and good, but why aren't you complaining that other companies aren't citing their sources either? Because, well, they don't, and there are plenty of very close similarities out there between other dolls. I can't say how they would handle being called out on it -- maybe they would have a similar response to Leeke's, maybe they would do it differently. But, you can't claim that it doesn't happen.

Fantasy trends yes, but not in the way that Soom went about it with elaborate fantasy parts. Before there were plenty of elves and vampires, but little in the way of actual fantasy optional parts -- that's one of the reasons they were so exciting to so many people.

There was -- I clearly remember it, but it was very short lived and quickly shot down by most people. Believe me, there has been plenty of silliness over complaints of copying/the perception of too much similarity. Quite frankly some people's reactions to Puns/Mikhaila are starting to reach that point to me.

You're missing the point. You'll find very few people indeed that will claim that Leeke was not heavily inspired by Puns. It's simply that they did what lots of other companies do in seeing something they like and adapting it to suit their own line. Do you really think that companies don't study each others dolls? Just because they didn't get called out on it, doesn't mean that it doesn't blatantly happen. And that's my beef -- I don't care if someone, like yourself, chooses to not buy the doll because the similarities make them feel uncomfortable about it. It's the depth of the reaction that seems blown out of proportion considering the actual nature of the offense as well as how quick the many of the same people are to turn a blind eye and rationalize away the same type of things that happen with other companies.

If I were to hold myself to your standards and be consistent I would need to ditch my Dikadoll jointed hands, my Soom Gem boy body, perhaps my old KDF Ani boy, because he does have a similar body type to Volks MSD boys and so on and so on. That's what's bugging me about this, there's too much

 

Heh! I'd say, in my ever-so-humble opinion, that 90% (conservative) of bjd on the market now are altered recasts. I don't expect people to agree with me, but that's what I see with my own eyes. I try *really* hard to only buy bjd these days that are 100% original. Which means I don't buy very much. Sometimes I don't see it in photos, or order too quickly, but holding the sculpt in my hands it'll suddenly become obvious to me: "Oh my gosh, that's an altered Volks Kasumi!!" D-; etc...

Your safest bet, if it matters to you, is to buy from small-time artists, but I am not sure of all of them, and there has been at least one notorious obvious recaster/alterer. Some I definitely see another doll's hands, feet or a mishmash of parts in.

I think it's some combination of profiteering, laziness, and the pressure to conform to certain aesthetic standards that does it, but mostly the first two.

Raven

 

Hobbysue - Unfortunately, Dollzone did start out their business on the wrong foot with a recast. I actually believe that it is the DZ lovers as well as the haters who keep the topic of their validity alive. It's safe to say that DOA will never reach a consensus and I sincerely hope you are not troubled by that. We have a lot of opinions on this board!

If a doll is an actual recast it does not belong on the DOA boards because that is just wrong. If instead we are talking about doll similarities and inspiration we are speaking in shades of gray. I think people should decide for themselves if they think a doll is too close for comfort to the design of a doll from another company. I also think that if people want to discuss their more controversial opinions about a doll on DOA they should as long as they keep it civil and try to be consistent about where they draw the line between a copy and an inspiration. In the end it is impossible for anyone to be 100 percent original.

 

I'm an idiot who can't work forums. Derp.

 

Derp number two guys. Sorry.

 

Lol, did you even read the thread?

 

I'm going to be brave and take part in the heated Dust of Dolls/Leeke debate.

Is it perfectly fine for me to take pictures of dolls like Soom Ario and Argil, start sculpting a larger version with a thicker neck and different head, and then sell it in a different resin color as an inspired but not copied doll? Because, to me and a lot of other people, this is essentially what Leeke did. They were not merely inspired to create a pear shaped doll. They took Puns' body, made it bigger, and put Mikhaila's head on it. There is solid proof in the photographs left on Leeke's worktable. I would just like everyone to take a look at this as additional proof Leeke isn't so honest: http://www.flickr.com/photos/an-ovalaire/5550992763/in/photostream/

There is nothing wrong with taking a broad, general idea and making it your own. I have seen two entirely different approaches to mermaid tails for dolls (Planetdoll Aqua and Peapod Doll mermaid tails). I have seen two entirely different approaches to bunny/rabbit dolls. I have seen many entirely different opened mouth dolls. I have seen many entirely different approaches to elf ear dolls. These are all broad ideas that can be fine tuned into different creations. Of course it is hard to find an original idea that can "patented" per se. It would be ridiculous to say that only one company can produce a doll with horns. It's okay for others because their horns can never be exactly like another company's unless they copy. When your doll looks exactly like another sans the face, it stops looking like inspiration and starts looking like flat out copying. You can follow a trend without copying.

Influenced idea =/= Copied idea is the last thing I would like to point out regarding the Dust of Dolls/Leeke drama. Once one is set in one's beliefs, it is like convincing a horse to drink to get one to change. Because such a gray area exists in these matters, it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. We all have different ideas of what is merely influenced and what is copied. I've stated my opinion and explained why I feel this way. If you agree, cool. If not, you have a right to an opinion just like me.

Returning to the original thread's debatable question: As caring consumers, we do not want our money to be spent on cheap copies. We would rather support the original and get higher quality. Chances are, the original is usually better in quality than the copy. Would you be happy to find out you just spent $1000 for a doll you thought was a Volks but was really a cheaper doll modified to look so? This community would rather have the real deal. Because of this, we are ever on the lookout to protect ourselves and hardworking sculptors from being cheated. I agree that newbies will try to earn kudos for "being among the firsts to notice a copy." It is also the case that a sculptor switches companies like how some sculptors from Custom House/Aidolls left to sculpt for RosenLied Doll. People may get carried away in their accusations, but I for one am glad others care enough to be on the lookout. ​

 

Yes, but if you're going to complain about people who see an idea, take notice or even photos, then make their own version of it, why wasn't DaisyDayes (sp?) not booted off DoA for making tiny Soomlike hooves for pukifees etc. What about Angelheim for the same reason. There are a number of dolls that look Volkish to me, and are so heavily 'inspired', yet flourish. There have been instances where smaller artists have been openly lauded for making smaller/different sized versions of items for dolls that would not have been able to have those parts otherwise. How many got torched for imitating/copying company sculpts? Why are people so keen to accuse some companies/people of copying but say it is fine for others to do so. If you're going to have a ban and say that you can't use inspiration, then have a blanket ban. Don't just say that it is fine for some but not others. The hip joints on both Mikhaila and Puns while unusual, have been used before. They are NOT exclusive to Puns. Yes, Leekeworld did use the body as inspiration and perhaps too heavily, but there are numerous other instances where something similar has happened and without any fuss whatsoever. This hobby is rampant with 'inspiration' dolls and items. It has been for a long time. As mentioned by ravendolls, if you are trying to buy a completely original piece, then your doll collection is likely to be extremely small.

 

I think it all depends on how people scream "COPY!" too If someone asks politely "Hey, this body reminds me of so and so, what do you guys think?" then they're asking an innocent question to make themselves informed buyers. If we have a thread going "OMG I FOUND A COPY BAN THEEEEEEM!", then others will just be in arms shouting "Why do people accuse ALL companies of copying" when really, they've missed the question/point. So I don't think we should be shooting down all people who asks about copied dolls. We should gently shoot down the people who jump the gun

I like being informed about my purchases, so I'm happy about this community being vigilant but respectful too

This! Instead of sitting down and saying "Hey, I really like this idea, let's make our own version with our own particular style/flavour", they just printed off Pun's body pictures, sat down and started making it.

And that's the difference (for me) to other companies that do similar ideas (like Daisydays Hooves, Peapod Doll, Impldoll etc). They took the basic idea, and made their own version of it. Take the hooves for example. X company might have seen Y's hooves selling pretty well, so they wanna jump in on the cash wagon. So they start looking for inspiration, idk, maybe google horse hooves, cloven hooves, different hoof species etc. Then maybe once they have their research, they sit down with the google images, sketch out a few ideas, and then start making from these sketches.
There were absolutely no sketches on Leeke's worktable. There were no concept designs or ideas on that table. Just Dust of Dolls' and Lillycat's pictures. If they really did work out all the ideas through sketchwork and concepts, then why are DoD's and Lillycat's pictures on the table, and not said sketches and concepts?

I'm not against inspiration in general. But it's how Leeke reacted which makes me 'against' them.

Hobbysue; I'm not bashing you (I apologise if it sounds like it D: ) but if DaisyDayes should be banned from making Puki sized 'Soom' hooves, shouldn't Soom be banned because they copied Chiron Centaur from Souldoll? Or both Souldoll and Soom should be banned because they copied DaisyDayes' centaur? (I have no idea which came first out of Chiron v DaisyDayes...) I think it's because I'm confused as to why you mention a one person company copying a bigger company but not the other way round. Bridges go both ways and all that jazz.

Joking slightly: if all 'copying' companies should be banned, we'd have a very small On Topic list

Lol, at least she put a well thought answer instead of a one liner?

 

I'm with you on this one.

I am not sold on the idea that 90%+ of dolls out there are actual recasts, though. That percentage being inspired by something else either inside the hobby or strongly enough by something outside the hobby that someone familiar with the source would recognize the inspiration immediately? Very likely.

 

Completely agreeing with Hobbysue's last post. The entire history of this hobby is one of heavy inspiration and I honestly think that it isn't a bad thing. If we weren't allowed to use ideas of others EVER, then not only would we have a much smaller doll collection to choose from, but 90% of the books, tv-shows, movies etc would have to be banned as well.

Name one doll company who has been completely original from the start. I don't think you'll find any. CCC's cute dolls were inspired by artwork outside this hobby, D.D used a common French doll bodytype, all BJD companies were inspired by Voks and Volks itself took its idea from antique ball jointed dolls. There are several companies selling jointed hands, the double-jointed body has become the new standard, mature mini's, slender 70 cm dolls, butch 70 cm dolls, elves, vampires, centaurs... at one point they all were an original idea.

Though I do think it is important to keep an eye out for actual recasts, I think it would be a shame if this hobby becomes too rigid in its ideas of copying. "Did you see that right toe nail of doll A? That's CLEARLY a copy of Super Awesome doll B's left pinky nail!!" That doesn't sound like a community I want to be part of.

 

And to just take it a step further, even within that there's only going to be a finite number of human shapes, and facial arrangements that are going to be perceived as attractive and desirable, among a large enough group of people to make something worth doing/profitable.

And sometimes companies don't want to take a risk until they know they can make back their money if they do. And sometimes that means waiting until someone else does it first to see how it goes.