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Why are we always trying to accuse copies?

Jun 25, 2011

    1. I find it really interesting that people seem to think that all the research and development companies do has little or nothing to do with the competitors dolls whom they want to emulate. Artists use references all the time, and you would have a very hard time convincing me that doll companies don't study each others dolls. It would in fact, be rather strange not to have an interest in what other doll companies were creating. You are also making assumptions about the practices of Leeke (just because you didn't see other sketches, didn't mean they don't exist) and folks like Daisydays and Peapod (just because you didn't see photos of Soom dolls doesn't mean that they didn't take a good hard look at how they made functional hooves). People need to be realistic here.

      Why wouldn't a company have pics of dolls that inspire them and have concepts that they want to incorporate into their lines? Why do people assume this is such an uncommon and taboo thing?

      This is the point people are trying to make -- it seems overblown and silly to demand all these companies who use heavy inspiration be banned -- unless they're LeekeWorld, that is ;) Puns and Mikhaila share a very similar silouhette (sorry for crappy spelling), but they are hardly identical dolls (I find it amusing how a person will claim they are nearly identical and then rail about how poor Mikhaila looks in comparison to Puns. Make up your mind people, which is it?). The level of similarity between them shows up in examples all across the hobby that people make little to no fuss about. The thing about the small company copying the larger companies was brought up, because people tend to make less of a fuss about it than when it's the other way around. As someone else said, people like to root for the underdog and support the little guy. Of course with bjd companies, most of them are little guys.
       
    2. exactly what I believe too!!
      (super late answer xD sorry)
       
    3. *giggles* This thread has gotten out of hand, I really just wanted to see why everyone gets so defensive on each side like it's actually going to change anything.. :I It's amusing to watch, if not sad that I should of been more specific in my first post and not of let the Leeke DoD get in here because that's still too fresh and people get far too worked up..

      Especially when they start telling someone they're not getting what this thread is about, even though their blissful opinion is their blissful opinion *ahem* ._.
       
    4. That's the difference between debate and discussion threads. People disagreeing with each other isn't getting out of hand nor is it necessarily over defensive, it's the nature of a debate. It gets out of hand when people start flinging personal insults and being really inflammatory. Also, if there's an example of what the thread is about that's pretty recent, then it probably will come up because more people are aware of it than say a relatively minor dust up that happened two or three years ago.
       
    5. LittleNerdyOTAKU? You actually think this thread is out of hand? In debate?:nowords:

      I want to add one more thing. If you are an artist and you feel certain in your gut that someone has copied your work it is painful, believe me. The feeling is like having something precious stolen away from you. I think that in DoD's case people could try to understand that the artists are hurt over what happened. Naturally DoD will be VERY sensitive and defensive about something so personal as their handcrafted dolls. They may even lash out and verbally attack the company who they feel wronged them. Leeke would then naturally become very defensive and...ping pong.

      For the rest of us on the outside I believe it is worth while to closely examine our stance on what we consider to be a copy and then try our best to extend that stance beyond one event and see if it holds. I find this hard even for myself! I don't like what I see in those DoD comparison pictures but I am guessing that old school Volks fans didn't like what they saw when the first LUTS BJDs appeared on the market and so on and so forth. We get into so many shades of gray when we consider BJD evolution and it's worth considering that we might not have a hobby if people never allowed new companies to make BJDs.

      So ask yourselves, where do you REALLY draw the line? I'm still searching for the answer for myself. :doh
       
    6. I actually do remember the accusations towards Impldoll, since in the beginning, I agreed that their sculpts looked too similar to other companies. Nowadays, they are coming out with more unique dolls, and just like I predicted, their unique looking sculpts are just all around better.

      But to the topic more, I think it is interesting that when a new company comes out, their sculpts are always compared and contrasted against other older companies. I don't think this is so much of a bad thing, since we have seen plenty of real copies around. So it is important to be suspicious. But I think people need to also realize they need more concrete proof (such as the picture of Pun's body on Leeke's worktable). And then you have to consider is "inspiration" really the same as recasting? I think everyone will agree that it is not, but everyone might not agree on whether they can support a doll heavily inspired by something else.

      Ironically, like Impldoll, I found the thing that I liked the most about Mikhaila was her head sculpt, which was a bit more unique. Though, I did really like the body. I think that, as I have said in the past about Impldoll, if instead of companies "copying" each other, but doing more "unique" things, they would end up doing better. Leeke could have easily used the Pun idea and went with it, and probably would have came up with something even better than the Art body.
       
    7. Silk and Taco:
      I misspoke, I apologize. I did not mean "recast" by its definition. I meant it in the sense that they took SO MUCH "inspiration" from the Puns that Leekeworld may have recast it, aside from the side difference. They had very few differences between the two companies, in my opinion. But that doesn't mean I didn't read the information. I'm still relatively new to the hobby and I misspoke is all. I hate using the same words over and over and was looking for a decent way to explain it without being repetitive. I pulled up "recast" and it was incorrect.
      Thank you for pointing out my mistake. ^^

      Those two paragraphs wouldn't happen to be related, would they? *glances at who's on layaway for you* I'm not saying Leekeworld is a vile-rotten company for it or anything. Leekeworld has some amazing dolls and products! I just gave my opinion on the Mikhaila incident, from what I know. I wasn't there, and I'm not part of either of the companies, so I can't really know for sure what did or did not happen.
      I didn't mean to offend or anything if there are certain loyalties there, and I apologize if I did. (Though, judging from what you said about the difference between discussions-versus-debates, I don't believe you were making it personal. Still, I'm sorry if I offended, as it was not my intent.)

      I agree with you, Taco, about not buying a doll if one is uncomfortable with the doll possibly being "too similar", And I think you're completely correct, which I believe I made the point as well, that artists are constantly drawing inspiration from other artists. They have a strong influence on each other. But where's the line of an influence that's too strong?
      And I think that's what BJD hobbyists get up-in-arms about, to get back on topic; their perception of whether or not one doll has enough difference from another company's sculpt. In the end it's a matter of personal choices whether or not to buy a doll that may or may not be "copied", from another doll. And unless it's 100% obvious that the two are exactly alike, that's all it is, personal choice.

      Isenn: First, I just want to comment on what you said about an artist knowing in their gut, and the personal feelings. I feel a lot of empathy for artists who do have their work copied/recast. It's like their baby is being taken away from them, in a sense.

      And I'm still looking for that line also. There's just so many shades of gray. I like your evolution point, also. That's something to definitely consider: where the hobby would be without the influence of other companies and the like.
       
    8. Well where you draw the line depends on what you deem a copy. If you want to be strictly pedantic, no centaur is original. Somewhere back in ancient greek times, someone came up with the idea of combining a horse and a person and people have been ripping off their idea for centuries. The poor bloke (or gal) has never been credited either as far as I am aware. So technically, Souldoll (who I believe was first), Soom and DaisyDayes are all copyists. From memory though, the first Centaur I ever saw in this hobby was the Domadoll centaur which preceded Souldoll by a couple of years. In terms of body type, Iplehouse was the first to release a truly muscular male body, then Soom released their own version with Idealian. Should all Idealians be banned. There was a bit of fuss when they were first shown because of the similarity. It could be why the Idealians were pulled from the market for 6 months. As mentioned, there are a lot of issues of inspiration around. Leekeworld were merely the first to be caught with photos as proof. I find it hard to believe that other artists didn't use companies as inspiration. One reason I named DaisyDayes was because when I first saw her hooves, I'm fairly certain that she acknowledged Soom was her inspiration. No-one blinked. Soom didn't make Pukifee sized dolls, or Littlefee sized dolls/hooves so no-one cared. Angelheim as applauded too because Soom hadn't gotten around to making MSD sized dolls then.

      As for the pain an artist experiences when they realise their work has been copied - it's tough but you either get over it or you don't. Yeah, really. Part of life is learning to overcome hurdles. There are loads of people who have come up with a brilliant design only to see it copied and even bettered. Just do some research on Edison and the light bulb - he was not the inventor. Either you feel that you're a one design wonder or believe that you have the ability to offer more than one design. Personally, I tend to wonder whether part of the furor over the Leeke/Puns issue is not so much the copying as that Puns was retailed as a specialty high end unique doll and having Leeke offer a pear shaped MSD at a lower price was deemed to make people's expensive doll less unique. There was a similar outcry when Soom started to re-release some of their older MDs. Either way, Dust of Dolls has to decide how they want to handle the issue. They can feel bruised and hurt or come out fighting. They could always offer Puns through Jpopdolls in limited batches and compete with Leekeworld that way. Artists sculpts are usually worth more, but a lot of people prefer company manufactured dolls. The reality is that Mikhaila was released, was a very successful doll for Leekeworld and apparently more in the range are planned. So the chances are that the copying issue will be raised time and time again.

      I know that the title of the thread is "why are we always trying to accuse copies?" but when you look at all the examples of blatantly 'inspired' dolls, then the question is "why aren't we always accusing companies of copying".
       
    9. Actually, the first centaur BJD I can think of was the Kktomu (or however you spell it) by the extremely talented Domadoll. I don't seem to remember anyone saying anything when Souldoll released Chiron, everyone was just glad to have a hooved larger doll and not just a tiny. (Domadoll also was experimenting with a more pear shaped body/plumper body with Okja way before Puns/Mikhaila as well.)

      Honestly, I don't think artists are always hurt when others are inspired by their work, I think a lot has to do with crediting. While not quite the same thing, I've been to a Haru Comic City where Kouga Yun (creator of Loveless) had a table directly next to a circle selling Loveless doujinshi. I'm not sure she was flattered but she also obviously wasn't hurt by this.

      For me personally, I would have been happier if Leeke admitted Puns was one of their inspirations, however I doubt she was their only inspiration and to me the dolls are different enough that I would never consider Mikhaila a recast. This is not Forever Dolls.
       
    10. Actually, no they weren't directly related -- the second paragraph was a general statement that applies to any sort of situation of this nature. People tend to get very attached to their dolls and have a lot of respect for the companies that make them and that tends to bring more emotion into these sorts of issues.

      It wasn't meant to be personal, but when someone says 'recast' it means a very specific thing and it's a biiiig accusation to bring against a company. Now it's clear that it was just a mistaken word choice, but at the time it did imply that you were not aware of the information out there as a 40cm doll cannot be a recast of a 23 (I think?)cm doll. You could have said the same thing about a doll I didn't own, and I would've responded similarly, because while it's important to be on the look out for actual recasts, there have been periods where people have tended to really jump the gun when it came to pointing fingers and believe me, it got old fast. There is so much info out there on Puns/Mikhaila there is no reason for someone to really honestly believe Mikhaila is a true recast.

      Yes I do own a Mikhaila (that's the girl in my icon) and have another on layaway, but I was well aware of the Puns/Mikhaila issue when I made the decision to order Cinnamon. I had no previous experience with the company -- I hadn't bought a doll from them before, and even the wigs I have had come from a US dealer -- and I had to think over the situation very hard. In the end while I had sympathy for the fact that the Dust of Dolls' artists felt hurt by what happened, I also felt that Leeke hadn't done anything really wrong (except perhaps handling the resulting blow up clumsily). For myself, I need to see that companies are putting their own stamp on their dolls and that they are not truly identical. It would take a lot for a non-recast doll to really get me that upset, since when you have a doll that is *not* an actual recast, they will tend to vary from the original inspiration. However, true bootlegs are absolutely not okay in any way shape or form.

      That's going to vary from person to person, and it's ok that it does as long as people are consistent about it which tends to be my main complaint, and one that is rarely really addressed in a satisfactory way. I *personally* see enough differences in the sculpt that even putting the size difference aside, Mikhaila and Puns are not identical. Mikhaila really is in Leeke's sculpting style which is more typical of the abjds in this hobby, while the Puns is more remeniscent of an artist doll. So while they share a very very similar body shape, the details are quite different. I can see why people can have an immediate strong reaction, because while you see a lot of certain body types repeated throughout bjd land, this exploring more extreme shapes is a pretty new thing, so it stands out a lot when two dolls come onto the market that share that trait. However, just because these dolls stand out from the crowd, doesn't mean that Leeke went somewhere that other companies don't go on a fairly regular basis.
       
    11. This is just a total side note: while it couldn't be done by just making a mold from it, unfortunately, it could be done if someone really felt like pouring the cash into it. There are some casting materials that expand in size over time, though I don't know for certain if they do so evenly enough for small pieces to still match up. If they felt like pouring a LOT of cash into the effort, they could have something digitally scanned and 3d-printed at a larger size. These are very unreliable and/or highly expensive options, though -- to the extent that in the latter case, it would often be less costly to just hire/commission a legitimate sculptor to make something to spec and avoid the impropriety in one shot. Given that 'legit' would be cheaper, more reliable, and without ethical and legal issues, the actual path of least resistance here is the good one, for a change. ;)
       
    12. I think you have to take into consideration that there will always be people who will scream "IT'S A COPY! BURN/BAN THEM!", but I'd like to believe that the majority of people in this community consist of level headed people who can look at evidence of a potential copy without only seeing what they want to see.
      Although loud people are more visible, it does not mean that everybody will always see copies left and right.
       
    13. That's what Hobbysue said ;) The centaur, Kkotmu, by Domadoll came before any centaurs by DaisyDayes, Souldoll and Soom.

      I find the dolls being produced by Domadoll to be some of the most charming and unique available and I absolutely love the Okja body. It just goes to show that while there will be companies like Domadoll who pioneer a trend, there will always be companies who would prefer to follow trends rather than lead with their own. There's less financial risk that way, whereas a one-person company run by an artist has the freedom to experiment and go with where their instincts are leading them.
       
    14. That sounds kind of tricky. Especially physically. :sweat

      Is the community really ALWAYS trying to accuse companies of copying? In light of the number of releases from all the BJD companies now out there, I would say it's been fairly sporadic in the three years I've been in the hobby.

      As has been pointed out, there are only so many plausible ways to represent the human form, so it's easy to spot similarities. My LUTS Abadon and Volks Williams look somewhat alike to me because they both have a similarly dour cast to their features. I don't think this has anything to do with copying or inspiration, it's just that there are only so many ways to make a face look dour.

      And while I personally have no dog in the Dust of Dolls versus Leekeworld fight, I don't think anyone here knows exactly what either company's intentions or even design processes were. I mean, it's pretty safe to say they wanted to make and sell BJDs, but beyond that it's all speculation. Even a photograph on a workbench doesn't conclusively prove anything. I once had a judge explain it to me this way: Say you walk into the kitchen and find little Billy in front of an empty pie plate licking a gooey fork. It seems pretty clear he ate the pie, but it's actually entirely possible someone else ate the pie and all little Billy did was come in after and lick the dirty fork left behind. Having a picture on a workbench does not prove that Leekeworld's staff looked at it, rolled up their sleeves, and said, "Hey, let's make that exact doll only bigger! That'll be easier than coming up with our own ideas!" My personal speculation is that BJD companies look at reference pictures, keep an eye on what other companies are doing, and probably even handle other companies' dolls to see how they work. I don't expect to change the speculations and opinions of others.

      That said, this is a hobby with a certain amount of financial risk and a lot of emotional involvement. Being tricked into buying a recast has to be a horrible experience. I don't blame people for being on the lookout for copies. I do wonder if any of it comes from a place of proving your own expertise or special knowledge over others (frankly there were some, "Well, I can see they're identical/completely different because I am more x, y, or z than other people" comments in the Dust of Dolls versus Leekeworld thread). Or some people feel a connection with the companies they buy from, and want to defend them from those who might be, to their mind, stealing their beloved company's intellectual property.
       
    15. Taco, while this isn't a personal attack on you of any sort, as a professional product designer, frequently working on toy accounts, I find your defence of Leeke in this particular case quite blinkered. Yes, companies do look at their competitors product, yes they frequently react to innovations by their competitors and want to put their version on the market as quick as possible. So, yes, it makes sense that Leeke would have pics of Dust Of Dolls Puns around when they worked on their own pear shaped sculpt. That is standard practice....

      Where Leeke seem to have gone beyond what is accepted practice is that they ONLY had pictures of Puns. Where are the mood boards showing not just puns but all sorts of other influences? Where are the design sheets showing a clear progression of ideas and working drawings that lead up to early versions of Mikhalia? The fact that Leeke have not produced any of these very neccessary concept scamps and mood boards and just hastily photoshopped out the picture of puns on the work table next to their sculpt after it had already been seen by many, many people, kind of leads the majority of us to one conclusion.

      I have asked a number of other designers about this case and everyone reaches the same conclusion because we have all had clients just like Leeke appear to be. They see something a competitor has done and decide to forgo that time consuming and expensive process of actually developing something influenced by that novelty and just want a straight copy which they can then tweak to avoid being sued. They then manage to convince themselves that there is nothing wrong with this and that they are just providing the consumer with what they demand.

      DOD are just 2 students, they don't have the time and can't afford to produce Puns on the scale that Leeke can produce their version. Leeke realised there was a demand that DOD were not in a position to fill immediately and so jumped in feet first. That is how this appears and it happens a lot in business, not just with BJDs and it's sad and depresssing.

      I am glad that, despsite some wild goose chases, BJD lovers and the members of DOA in particular, keep a very wary eye out for this kind of laziness because in the end it is us, the doll lovers, who will lose out. Companies will copy each other to the extent that no-one will even try to create anything original anymore, what will be the point?
       
    16. Why are we always trying to accuse copies?

      I think its trying to keep the bjd free of lots of the same, also giving credit where credit is due for the hard work effort and design gone into making that wow factor of the doll.

      it would be unfair for an artist to take another artist work and say its their own so its the same here

      i think its sad when you think dust of dolls put in all that hard work designing the body and being students could not afford to go into mass production leeke world if they loved their design so much could have given dust of dolls the backing to put their designs into production worked with dust of dolls on the project and on future projects. The same applies with all companies who do the same i think its such as shame. thats just my veiw. i have nothing against each company but would love to see the bigger companies work with the new designers that they admire and like the designs of.

      for example
      Bigg comapany could have approached small company and offered to produce their product in return also allowing big company to design with them together that if small company agreed and wanted to! im sure they could have reached an agreement. lots of companies now have sister companies but this could be part of big company but on its own kind of way!

      it to me would have been a really lovely thing for a big company to have given a small starting out artist team a chance and a big company could have them designing more in the future keeping alive the new designs

      thats just what i think - it would be lovely to see and could give us lots more designs in the future!
       
    17. No, I’m not. I just don’t agree with you.

      Celestilia, Vonbonbon and adhara made thesalient points far better than I could. In short, when I look at comparable cases, what Leekeworld did is the equivalent of what Lady Saiyuki did, not Impldoll, and is on that side of my personal line. It’s kind of startlingly similar, in fact, what with the doctored photos and all. And of course LS too has people who claim she did nothing questionable, and are entitled to express their opinion.

      I am mildly bemused by the “Just don’t buy it! But don’t discuss it if you haven’t!” defensive non-argument we’re repeatedly seeing here, because in what universe does not wanting to buy something mean you can only express purely positive opinions about it? I suppose people shouldn’t have taken amusement in following the stories of notroious plagiarism/"inspiration" cases like Kaavya Viswanathan and Suzanne Collins Helen Darville-Dimidenko , or looking at copying in comic books, weighing the evidence and discussing their conclusions, they should have just studiously avoided them. But - the debates were fascinating!

      So, to return to the original question - I guess that gives another reason for “spot the copy” that isn’t talked about often – spotting copies can be involve the same tempting combination of analytical and trainwreck pleasure that various w*nk and drama forums feed off . And yeah, I do enjoy reading both sides and the arguments on both sides and going “Ooh, maybe… maybe not… maybe… oh, yeah” (or "no, I don't think so") and talking it over with similarly interested friends. In the LW/DOD thing I was eventually convinced by the side that in my opinion overwhelmingly made better points, presented more convincing evidence and supported their arguments better, and still do, i.e. the Dust of Dolls side.

      And I enjoyed it all. I was never invested in it, but admittedly fascinated. I think sometimes we don’t fully acknowledge this aspect of copying dramas, perhaps because it doesn’t seem quite nice to admit to pleasure, however intellectual, in drama.

      The two are hardly mutually exclusive, or Oscars guests would carry Primark handbags to the after parties. Aside from that, I think both bodies are beautiful. But I think Puns' little face has the elusive magical quality that raises it to the level of art, while Mikhaela’s face is pretty generic – it looks like a standard childlike bland-pretty bjd face, which to be fair can be said of the vast majority of bjds. It’s not at all a bad face, although I personally dislike it on such a womanly body, but I wouldn’t consider it artistically in the same league as Puns. Mind you, I’m sure the people who claim to like Mikhaela's face better are telling the personal truth. In taste, mileages always vary.
       
    18. Well, I don't agree with you on that one. 'Cause, as far as I remember, Lady Sayuki actually DID make a recast of a doll and tried to cover that little fact up by slapping some clay over it. You can say a lot about Leeke - and the way they responded to the accusations wasn't helping me to respect them - but they did sculpt their Mikhaela. The idea might not have been their own, but at least they did put effort into the sculpting proces.
      For me that is different then just making a recast, 'cause no matter how good a sculptor you are, there will always be differences in your work and the work you used as (heavy) inspiration.

      If some company copied a game I created, by using all the original features including art-style, but rebuild it themselves from scratch, I'd be hurt sure. But if they simply took my game, gave it a new title and claimed it was their creation, I would rip them a new one.
       
    19. I just want to point out that they were the only pictures we saw. Which is a bit different. For all we know they could have had dozens of more pictures laying across the table, that just never made it into the photo's we saw. In fact looking at the pictures of the bit of desk/workspace we can see they had quite a lot of things laying on that table, so who knows what else was there. And as I'm pretty sure someone else is going to think and or say. Why didn't they just show us those pictures then, because they were already being accused of copying, so why would they then incriminate (most likely their thinking) them selves further by showing us more of what "inspired" them. Also leeke did make a photo progression story on their site about how they came up with the idea for Mikhaila. Whether or not you believe them or feel they came up with that after the fact is up to each individual person.

      Also not all artists work the same. Yes, we all use and get inspiration from everywhere, each other, and what not. The only picture I have of the doll I'm trying to make (@_@ speaking of which something I need to work on) is the blueprint for what I want it to look like and a drawing my sister made years ago that I'm basing the doll on. Everything else is just me kind of having a general idea of the look I'm going for. I haven't really looked at anything else other then various types of joints to get an idea of what I'd want mine to look like. And anatomy drawings from a book I bought years ago just so I put everything in the right place. No Picaso dolls for me. xD I don't have a mood board, I may or may not have pictures of my progression, mostly because I'm new at this and not sure if I even want to share it, and I'm lazy. :sweat But perhaps I should collect all that stuff, just to be on the safe side in case someone accuses me of copying, other then my sister. :lol:Especially considering I'm making a doll with wide hips something I've been wanting to do and after the Leeke/D.D thing something inside me just said go for. So I guess you can say they were kind of my inspiration to or at least my propellant. But in the end I didn't really do that much research when it came to the actually look of the doll. I just jumped in feet first because I wanted to try my hand at doing something. But that's just how I've been working, which may not be like how someone else works. Some people may have loads and loads of stuff sitting around to help them figure things out. I don't. We're all a bit different that way.
       
    20. People do tend to jump the gun with the accusations of recasting, yes. And the Puns-Mikhaila case is one where there is enough information to determine it wasn't a recast, but make up ones own mine about whether it is or is not a case if excess "influence" ... unless one uses improper diction, which we've established. The only reason I made the connection between the two points at all was the "Ummm, no" you used. That and you accused me of not reading because I made a mistake over one word, which I did not appreciate. Of all the accusations one could possibly make about me, not reading is certainly not one of them. (Lol) I found the Puns-Mikhaila case rather intriguing, what with the severe contradictions between each side's stance and Leeke's poorly-handled "comeback" so to speak ("clumsy" indeed), though I know it's not the only one of its sort by any stretch of the imagination, it's the one that I became aware of most easily. primarily through seeing a boycott on Leeke, which I think is rather ridiculous, to be perfectly honest.

      Agreed.
      And while experimenting with different shaped bodies may be relatively new, it's hard to deny the similarities between the two are far closer than the differences are different, especially if you ignore the size difference. And that's my stance on the topic, but it isn't the point of the thread. After all, the first post says that that isn't what this thread was about. I used it as an example, but it isn't the focus here.

      And as I had said as well, it does differ person to person whether or not they consider something "influence" or "copy". Where the line is drawn is an individual thing. People can buy what they want from whom they want.

      Now to get back on topic, the reason people make such a big deal about these things is, as I can see it, related to what Isenn said about the artist's feelings, maybe not so directly related, but it definitely related back to the artists and their perception of whether or not their work was stolen. And the BJD community makes it known when they find something suspect. It's about getting it out there, so that others can make informed decisions. Granted, some people take it a bit far and throw out accusations like throwing candy off a parade float.