Why are we always trying to accuse copies?

Just a quick question: I'm in the process of sculpting my own doll. I have 1 page of design sketches I did myself and three dolls by other companies shown visibly in my WIP pictures. In how much trouble am I?

 

It depends. If the pictures are of a 'big' company like Soom, Iplehouse or Leekeworld, you'll probably be fine. If the pictures belong to Volks or an individual artist, I'm sharpening the pitchforks now.

 

It look lit's really difficult to tell the difference between influence and copy. =/

 

Lol.

@Muis: Judging this information, I think your doll is a 50% copy, so shame on you. Never mind her cute ears and her adorable tummy. But for your sake, I think I'm in more trouble than you, since I only had one blue-print on my worktable and about 6 reference pictures of different BJD's (not to mention those dolls hiding in my cupboard). I'm a sinner and will burn.

 

What is not in your WIP pictures does not exist. Or else I'd be in more trouble than you due to the massive amount of dolls hiding in my cupboard.
But in all seriousness, as Taco said it before me, when you hit a grey area don't buy the doll if you feel uncomfortable about it and buy the doll if you like it. A lot of people are somewhere between the far ends of the spectrum of "are they right or wrong" and for them it's not clear cut black or white situation.

 

Musje, you will be fine because you are just using the pics to inspire you surely. You don't intend to actually copy them.

Just to clarify, when I create my own dolls and artwork I don't make mood boards, etc, sometimes I don't even make a sketch, why would I? I get to be judge jury and executioner of my own personal work. When you work for a client or in a company which has a production line every minute you spend on a project is billable and you have to account for your time. You also don't just get to design and create what you personally want to. The mood boards and other visual printouts and references are taken out to meetings and discussed by other people and the people who will bankroll the project often have the final say.

In a company like Dollstown which I think just has two guys making sculpts they send out to be cast, I bet they rarely make more than a few sketches and they get to make their own decisions. I don't know how large or small Leeke is, but if the person who actually sculpted Mikhalia had to confer with another few people at that company, then they would have had to provide visual references, sketches or whatever to show the other people what they were going to spend X amount of time sculpting, because, unless they work for free, someone will be paying them for that X Amount of time. Wage slave or freelance, we all have to account for what we do to earn the pay. Hope that makes sense?

 

Call me stupid, but I think that Leeke has about 4 employees (as do most companies have). Doll companies really aren't that big and most of the time I get the idea that they're more like certified hobbyists than million-dollar professionals.

 

If you look at the Dust of Dolls "About Us" on their webpage it says where and how many of each doll they've created and sold- granted they're very limited.

Silk: To run a company like Leeke, create a product and sell it, they are by definition professionals. And I fail to believe that since they've been around for years that they don't know how to run a company like that; what's allowed and what's not in the BJD community, to be more specific.

I think you're right though - the company probably began as "certified hobbyists" but once you reach a certain point where you're selling your products to the masses and you become fairly well known, you're a certified professional and should act accordingly. I like the way vonbonbon put it best: one needs to be accountable for how they earn their pay. No matter how large- or small-scale a company is, it's still comprised of individual people, who know how things are done - recasts and copies, for example- and if one makes a "mistake" (be it legitimately a mistake or on purpose) at least own up to it.

Although, I can't exactly blame Leekeworld for going on the defensive- whether you've done it or not, "Copying" is a startling thing to be accused of.

 

They're a well established abjd company, but that doesn't make them a big company, meaning that they may not run things the same way as a company with far more employees might. This is really true of most abjd companies, not just Leeke. Yes, in order to survive and do well they need to be able to act in a professional capacity in terms of being able to satisfy their customers' needs, but that still doesn't change their basic nature. This is par for the course in this hobby. When people see the word "company" they often envision something much different than what abjd manufacturers are in reality. This is why the claim that the big company was ripping off the little artists doesn't really hold true -- with a very few exceptions, abjd companies are all small companies made up of a few artists.

As I said above, there are certain behaviors that no matter what, a company needs to avoid: recasting, not getting their products out to people, sending out products with quality control issues (an occasional flub up happens, consistent failure on this point is a major problem). They need to be able to fix their mistakes when it comes to items arriving with damage, wrong items sent etc. These are all pretty standard things that most people are going to agree on and things for the most part, companies should be able to do. Sometimes a company will become the victims of their own success, get swamped with orders and have a hard time keeping up -- this is unfortunate, but not uncommon considering the size and nature of abjd makers.

However, if customers aren't going to readily agree that Leeke made an actual mistake in creating Mikhaila, then I'm not sure that it can automatically be put down as poor professional practice or something they should apologize for. Now the way they handled the resulting blow up was not smooth, certainly, and I wish for their sake they would've handled it a bit better. That said, I'm dubious that either way it would have diffused the situation much.

 

I can empathize with the worry.

I plan on (eventually) fussing something together in a modeling program (when I'm not buried up to my eyeballs in job-work). There's a company I have specifically avoided purchasing from, despite liking one of their dolls very much, because of their negative view of that process -- and a lack of any desire to potentially draw their ire despite the fact that my concepts having nothing at all in common with theirs.

I'd rather never see or handle one of their dolls in person until I have mine in hand to avoid any potential issues, and have refrained from buying from them in spite of some really great sale prices that would have made the doll I like a much easier purchase.

 

That's not what what I meant at all. I was replying to Vonbonbon who made it sound we're dealing with giant coorporations. Just because you are a hobbyist, doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing or can't be professional in your dealings with your customers. You will have show salesmanship if you want to sell anything.
But, because I believe many of the people making dolls still have to have a job on the side, I DO think it is a fair assumption to make that these dollmakers create because they enjoy the hobby, not because they want to make millions. As such, I have a hard time believing their usual days involve countless meetings where they show the future of the company to their workdrones. It's not that kind of business.

@surreality: I wouldn't be too worried. When you've made your own doll you can always proof it's an original by showing WIP pictures or keeping a blog where you keep updates on the process.
If you want to buy the doll, please buy the doll. Don't let a bunch of triggerhappy people keep you from doing what you want to do. After all, you have a high chance that the doll you're going to make will look nothing like anything you own.

 

Taco: But being part of the hobby- period- one still knows the "rules" so to speak. I know what a small business consists of- I'm part of a family business. I don't imagine BJD companies are any different.

And how is turning around and accusing Dust of Dolls of the same "crime" any different? Leeke said they didn't do anything wrong, okay, fine, but then they turn around and accuse the company accusing them of the same thing? That's just a little fishy to me. THey made it seem like Mikahlia and Puns are COMPLETELY different. They're not. Leeke didn't even admit to the influence, which is clearly there. And that's the problem. If they'd said something about that, then I would gladly accept that and leave it alone. That would have been taking responsibility to me.

Silk: Ah, I see my mistake. I didn't realize that was what you were responding to and I guess I interpreted it differently then what you had intended. But the selling wasn't the issue, and I wasn't concerned at all with the inentions of selling- be it they want to make money or they just enjoy it. If the product is sold, it is a profession. I never said- nor thought- that they were these HUGE corperations that set out to make millions and sell tons of products, like Ford or a company of equal measure. No, they certainly are not that. They are professionals by definition, however.

And as part of the hobby, you have to have an idea of how things work. Even the newbies in the forums know that there's a difference between inspiration and down-right copying. Leekeworld was aware of the Puns before they put Mikhalia into production. Leekeword surely knew that would look suspicious, and they should have addressed it when they were accused.

Taupe, the basis for the puns, was allegedly begun in 2007; Mikhalia was allegedly begun in 2008. This could have been addressed when the whole thing blew up. I realize that when an artist is creating a doll, they're probably not constantly running searches to see if anything of the sort already exists. I'm only thinking of once this all came out- once this whole debacle began, they could have said something. No, Taco, it wouldn't have totally diffused the situation, as people will think what they want sometimes even despite the facts, but it may have helped.

 

Some things aren't as clear cut, though. Like the basis of this whole debate -- how much inspiration is too much? There is no hard and fast hobby rule except don't recast.

I never said they handled the resulting blowup well, as you may recall. However, handled well or not, that doesn't address the question of how much inspiration one should and can use. Those are two different things.

If this is such a clear cut issue that even newbies know what's right, then why didn't the majority of the forum boycott Leeke? Why was Mikhaila not banned here? Why is there so much debate over this issue? Because it's not black and white. Recasting is black and white, inspiration is not.

It would have helped satisfy some people -- there are some that I remember saying that their main issue with this whole thing, wasn't that Mikhaila was heavily influenced by Puns, but that Leeke handled things badly. However, there are a lot of people upset because they feel that Mikhaila looks to much like Puns and wanted Leeke to not release her. I'm not so sure Leeke being upfront would've helped those feelings. Look, I'm not saying that Leeke did a stellar job in handling the resulting controversy, and I never did -- it's just not at the heart of the whole issue for me personally. However, that doesn't mean that the Mikhaila/Puns inspiration issue is any more black and white, or that some people aren't tending to exaggerate on some of the issues here, or that Leeke has been unprofessional in other ways, or that abjd companies on the whole aren't a bit different from many of the companies that you and I are probably used to dealing with.

 

I don't worry too much as I have step by step pictures that will avoid any (modified) recast accusations and I'm not eyeballing other people's work to mimic their work. I do however, look at how other people have done certain things so I don't have reinvent the wheel.
Take this hand for example. It's in the first sculpting stages, but it is posed similarly like the left hand of Fairyland's FeePle65 Chloe (I own one). I happen to like that pose and you can't copyright a pose of a hand that milions of people can make with their own hands. Still there will be people who will claim this is in the grey area.
Despite of that, I'm not going to avoid making things I like, because someone else has already made it or used it before me.

 

In my country you're only a professional when the products you sell give you a certain amount of profit a year. If the costs are high enough, you wouldn't have to pay taxes and if you don't have to pay that, you're considered a hobbyist according to the laws of my country. Have to admit that I didn't keep in mind that other countries might have different ideas on the matter.

 

I am total against recasts and bootlegs. However, when it comes to that sort of situations -- when some artist use others' work as a reference and modify it, I don't really think that matters. If it turns out to be a failure, than no one would really want to buy it anyway. But somehow it can actually turns out better ! I really think that just depend on personal taste. A doll is different from another even if they only have a thicker cheek or a wider eyes than the original. And if that doll looks better than the original, then this is a good job, and the artists do have put in lots of thoughts in it to make it look different. Like real people, dolls do look similar, but not the same !

Opening/ closing eyes/mouth is different cases though -- that doesn't change the look, just a different expression.

 

Recasts aside, being that those are usually more obvious, people, not just in the doll hobby, have a tendency to always feel shocked when one company is influenced by another and do something similar. But that's how it always it is and will be. When you put your art out there, you put yourself in full view of inspiring someone else, whether it be obvious or understated. With Volks being inspired by antique ball-jointed dolls, no other company would be around if they didn't work off what they created. Every BJD company was inspired and worked off each other until we have the BJDs we have now. Whether it be double-joints, single-joints, hooves, or, yes, even wide-hipped dolls.

I will admit truthfully that, when Mikhalia was released and I found out about the Dust of Dolls thing, I immediately had the gut reaction of "this is a copy! I hate Leeke!" etc etc. Then I stopped to REALLY think about it. In the end, the only thing I didn't like was Leeke's reaction to the whole thing. But, in the end, I realized that they may have copied a style but they tried to add their own touch to it and, regardless of whether that added touch was successful, every company has done that at some point and if I fault Leeke I will have to go out of my way to fault every company. In the end, I feel being cautious isn't a bad thing. But, I also feel like we can all make our own decisions and, if a doll doesn't sit right with you, don't buy it. For some reason, I think that's the most sensible way to go.

 

OK, so just to clarify, yes big multinational companies work in that way but from my personal experience so do companies of just 5 people. If the sculptor wasn't the person at Leeke who makes all the business decisions then they would have had to present their ideas in a visual form to the person who does... unless that person is a mind reader. I don't understand why everyone is getting bent about that simple fact?

I would have thought that Leeke would have been careful to have all their development proof to hand in this case for two reasons:

First, they saw Puns last Autumn at the French show, they were at the next table to Dust of Dolls and Lilycat. DOD and Lilycat have both said that and Leeke have not denied it. As they asked permission to take pictures of both of the french artists dolls, we know that they were very much aware of the sculpt. If we take their word for it that they were already working on Mikhalia, then they were taking pictures to compare with their own project and check that things were not too similar, that would explain the photos of just DOD and Lilycats dolls on the work table next to the working sculpt of Mikhalia. I can see that is a possibility.... but what I don't understand is the way they reacted because of reason two: This isn't the first time Leeke have been accused of copying the work of another artist is it?

I don't remember the facts and I'm happy to be corrected but didn't they previously get into trouble over a doll called Milk? If this is correct, wouldn't you think they would have been very careful not to get into a similar situation with Puns/Mikhalia? If they are a very small company then the decision maker would have been at the French show and could have talked to the french artists about the problem of similarities between their doll and one they had in production. Having been cast as the villains once before you would expect them to be a lot more careful and to have handled the resulting bun fight in a more considered way surely?

I won't change anyone's opinion that Leeke crossed the "inspiration" line with Mikhalia anymore than you will change my mind that they ripped off puns. When all is said and done I guess it comes down to gut feeling. I don't blame people for buying Mikhalia, or for having the opposite opinion to mine (why would I?) but this thread is supposed to be about why we accuse people of copying, I've explained why I think we do. Because in my own personal experience it happens more than you would credit, and it's the bane of my working life, and in my opinion it's the enemy of creativity and something I am glad people look out for. Even the wrong accusations that fly around, in the end they are valid if it keeps those that blatantly copy on their toes, and no, I'm not even thinking of Leeke now.

 

I didn't think of cultural differences when it came to the meaning either. xwx;; I suppose that DOES make all the difference.


Taco: I know you didn't say they handled it well; and I was agreeing with you. However, I was also giving mu opinion. I'm not boycotting Leeke, and I don't agree with them. I just wish they'd admit that Dust of Dolls had something to do with it. That's one of my very few concerns with this whole issue. This debate showed me a few things, and I've been reconsidering my point-of-view on the subject. Leekeworld isn't the super-awful people I initially thought, but I still think they're in the wrong, and I explained what makes me think so, I believe. Not sure how accurately I did so, but I think you get the point well enough that I don't have to do so again.

No, this topic isn't black and white, that's quite clear. But certain cases are, and also, in certain cases, there's something clearly off. In my opinion, Leeke VS. Mikahlia is one of those case. I know not everyone agrees, and I know a lot don't think Leeke did anything wrong. That's okay. they're entitled to side however they wish.

That's exactly why it wouldn't have satisfied everyone. But it's too late to deal with whether or not to release her. It's done and gone. As we have agreed, it's a matter of perspective on what-and-if anything was "done wrong" to begin with. I think for the most part, you and I agree on boundaries and it's about perspective, though we differ on this particular case. Yes?