Why do people charge so much?

I work as a professional artist and I am also strapped for cash, so like most people around here I can see both sides of the question.

Quality outfits made by hand with quality materials are, in fact, going to cost more than something mass-produced made with cheaper materials bought in bulk, just as haute couture clothes cost thousands of dollars as opposed to the ready-to-wear alternatives with much more modest price tags.

No matter how reasonable your prices are, someone's always going to complain that it's "too much" because (a) they're cheap brass thirds and/or (b) they don't see/can't understand/don't care about how much pain, work, effort, planning, blood, toil, tears and sweat went into creating that one article of clothing. Even if we submitted itemized lists showing how much every single bit of trim and thread and material cost, plus the markup for labor (which is almost always less than it should be, since this is a hobby, not a profession), they just wouldn't "get it". (To say nothing of medical expenses. Maybe I should add the cost of getting my finger stitched up post-scissors incident to the price of my handmade yukata...)

 

I think the problem with this theory is that what is difficult and tedious for one person is not as much so for another. One person can make something, very detailed, with little effort, while someone else works intensely hard, and stresses over it. In the end, the person who puts in twice the effort due to skill level slaps a price tag on it that they deem is worth it for their work, but the buyer can go to buy things just as well made from someone who didn't have to slap that type of tag on it. Its not that one is worth it and one isn't..it's that the worth of an item is relative. "Appropriately priced" to one individual is VERY overpriced to another. I really don't think it's fair to say that someone "just doesn't get it" just because they are not willing to pay a marked-up price. Some people DO flat out overcharge, hoping to make a fast dollar. I do face-ups. I know first hand what it takes to do a face-up, both in supplies, time, etc. However, i'm sorry, but 100.00 a face-up is a bit much...I'm just not going to pay that. It isn't meant to demean the artist. Their work might be gorgeous. However, there is such a thing as too much when it comes to a price. Just because we deem that something is worth it to ourselves, does not mean that we can slap a ridiculous price on it for that reason alone. I do face-ups, and i will NEVER raise my prices above 45.00 per face. Right now, i'm at 35.00 That to me, seems ok. (Especially when i see so many pricing theirs at 65 and up)

Think about it...If i make an outfit (Not being the best tailor in the world) it takes me about 10 times as long to make an outfit as some of the better people on here...sure, i can do the same quality...it just takes me 10 times longer, with twice the stress, aggrivation and frustration. So if i slapped a price tag for all the time, labor, stress, frustration, etc on it, the outfit would have to be priced at like 400 dollars. It's just not realisitc. LOL

The things that i take into consideration when doing an outfit to sell is basically components (How many pieces make up the outfit) the amount of supplies uses, then, i guestimate comparitively how much the outfit would go for on a site...what people would be willing to pay. Sometimes, i'm right, sometimes, i'm not. ::shrugs::

For me, as an artist, it is much more important to be known as an artist that is affordable as WELL as talented, as compared to being known as an artist that "just fetches insane prices".

 

Ok, CBAB, that's all well and good. You feel that your work is worth a certain amount based upon your experiences doing the work and the supplies you use. That's fine. That's not the case for every artist, however, and just as you may think that anyone charging over a certain amount for something is being unreasonable, the other person based on the supplies they use, the experience they have and the demands on their time may feel differently.

That's not really for you to judge, just as it's not for anyone else to judge whether or not you should charge what you charge. I feel you are demeaning the artist's right to charge what they deem appropriate simply based on what you personally think is fair. The point is, if people did not feel the work worth the amount charged, no matter the amount, they wouldn't buy it. Period.

Someone asked why certain prices are charged, answers were given. If people don't like an answer or the product, they don't have to buy it. Just because you don't charge $100 for a faceup, doesn't mean that another artist's faceup isn't worth that amount. There are many different factors that go into a faceup that differs between artists and not everyone does faceups the same way with the same amount of detail, supplies or time. It seems strange to blanket-charge a certain amount without taking into account these things.

This is basically skilled labor, different people's skills will go for different amounts.

 

You've just explained the reasoning behind skilled labor fetching a higher price tag, whether you realize it or not. All of those things people mention about experience and training? Labor time is where you'll see the primary difference. They will usually work faster, make fewer mistakes that would similarly eat up time, and so on, because of that experience and training.

The amount of work accomplished per hour has a big impact on skilled labor prices when it comes to garments. You may pay person X $25/hour and person Z $5/hour, but if person X can get it done in 3 hours, and person Z does it in 20 hours, even if the materials cost and final result was the same, you're better off with the person who charged $25/hour for skilled labor versus the $5/hour novice.

Think that's an unrealistic time spread? I've seen more extreme in action. My mother, myself, and a costumer I worked for each made similar (basic strapless sheath) dresses at different times. My mother's took over a week. Mine took a day from making the pattern to finished garment. A woman I worked for who had worked as a professional costumer? Had that dress done from a pile of fabric, paper, pins, and thread, from making the pattern to finished, fitted garment, in under an hour -- closer to 20 minutes actually, which stunned even me, but she took about 15 on making sure it fit the customer brilliantly and made her move around a lot to really check it over and make adjustments. (And there were very, very few to make. If I hadn't been sitting there the whole time, I wouldn't have believed it.) Tell me, honestly, that you'd be getting a worse bargain paying her $50/hour than you would paying me $20/hour, or my mother $10/hour, and I'd laugh outright.

 

something said earlier struck a chord:

I posted an outfit for sale and had a buyer. However, the doll was not a Limhwa, and the outfit was fitted FOR a Limhwa. I knew immediately that, while I could very well sell this outfit, when the buyer got it, it wouldn't fit her doll very well. She'd be unhappy, the doll would look awful (if it fit at all), & I would not have a very good rep, nor would I be happy knowing I sold it just to sell it, caveat emptor, altho I could have. So I refused the sale, & told her why.

Custom doll stuff is just that: custom. Sized to a particular doll (most of the time), and worked on with individual attention to quality & detailing that a factory-produced item sold in Walmart or Luts or other places just won't have. It's the difference between a Barbie & a Limhwa.

I've been sewing for 40+ years; that includes actual classes in pattern making as well as execution & couture finishing, not to mention the experience all those years of sewing for myself, or as a costumer, or as a doll costumer, have brought. That's a lot of experience, and training. Actually I don't even bother to figure in my labor: if I did, even Bill Gates couldn't afford my stuff. Fortunately, I don't depend on it for my income. At the moment it's all a labor of love - so I can afford to tell someone they shouldn't buy my outfit, & why. But even without the labor, my things are still expensive, because I use real fabrics (real silks, real linen, good lace, etc.), expensive materials, and then I use my skills: I not only design, cut, & sew, I frequently embroider, re-embroider, bead, or even tat or crochet lace edgings if I don't like what's commercially available. I hand make the shoes to match; ditto any accessories like fans, hats, or lingerie.

You don't get that kind of quality, detail, or skill with the stuff you buy at Walmart, or even someplace like FAO Schwartz. Hence the cost. If it's not worth it to you, then you don't buy it. Some people think it is. Others don't.

 

I'm not sure if this has been said already, as I sort of skimmed through the thread (ten pages is a lot!) so if it has, I'm sorry.

BUT, seakings, I doubt that the clothes you buy for yourself are made for you by a seamstress, am I right? People-sized clothing is cheaper because it is, for the most part, mass produced. I had the sticker-shock too, when I started looking for things for my first boy, but as others have said, doll clothing is priced often-times based on the time and effort people spend making it. If you bought all your own clothing from seamstresses, then you would begin to feel that $40 for a pair of doll-sized jeans is a relative bargain.

It's funny that it took getting into lolita (and buying a lot of hand-made items from various seamstresses, not just from the japanese couture brands) for me, at least, to make that connection.

 

I don't think a lot of people realize how much work goes into something that you have to make or paint. I am a face up Artist. I do it because of my passion and not the money, I charge $100.00 a face up which may seem like a lot of money to some....BUT the $100.00 in most cases is not worth my time and effort. Here are just a few things that are involved in one face up:

-Self Pimping, painting your own dolls, dressing them up, taking pics with new camera and cheesy set ups, picking the pics, setting them up in Photoshop and then uploading them to your server and then posting the pics in various places.

-Making arrangements with said customer where and when to send head, questions being asked and answered.

-Receiving head and printing out face up form and letting customer know head arrived.

-Time for said face up according to specs. Mix palette, airbrush head and hope you do not make a mistake, sometimes I do layers of colors and will make a small mistake on last layer of color then have to start over again which means filling up the AB after cleaning each time again and hope you do not make another mistake. Sometimes you may even have to re-spray MSC.

-Wait to dry, spray and then start painting and hope you do not make a mistake, depending on mistake you may have to wipe head clean and start all over again. Spray MSC.

-Wait to dry and then add gloss and lashes and hope you do not make any mistakes, so many times you can make the tiniest mistake that will lead to removing the whole face and starting from scratch yet again.

-Add eyes, wig, clothes, put on body, set up studio, take pics and hope these come out, take pics for customer to see and hope they like it, if they want even a small thing changed, you may have to start over again.

I used to do this method only I would send pics of the base face up before I painted but most people really could not tell because it was so plain so I stopped doing this, plus it ruined my creative flow, once I started I wanted to keep going and not wait for the customer to approve of it.

Then you have to do the whole setting up Photoshop/upload pics thing again.

-Invoice the customer after you gather all of the info: paypal id, email addie, insurance or not, your services and the shipping calculations.

-Mailing out, package head carefully, print out shipping label and try to get to the PO (International) or send out from work.

Does this sound like $100.00 is making a profit? I don't think so not to mention the emotional stress that goes along with it.

I personally do my commissions differently now that is much better for me but the above I did for a year or so.

I make way more money painting a doll how I see fit and selling them on eBay then I do for commissions.

Just my silly 2 cents for what is is worth

 

Wow....just wow. It amazes me how many people want to jump on you should you disagree. The snide remarks, and nasty jabs are just a tad immature.

The bottom line of this whole thing is that where do you draw the line between justifiable mark-up and insanely overpricing?

I will simply say that Price things what you will. It doesn't necessarily mean you are getting paid for what YOU deam to be your precious time. It's just not the way this industry works, unless you are a crazily well-known seamstress or face-up artist. Sorry

Let me just address this.....how is your 'printed label' less stressful than my handwritten one? And please, please let me know where the stress is, because if you are stressing, i suggest you choose another job that you enjoy. I'm sorry that you feel people must pay you for stressing yourself out. I also email people to let them know pricing when they quote me. I have a site, AND i sell here. Sounds like u are hyping some stuff up to justify your sales. I do this because i love to do it. Kudos to you for doing it because it's a job. but don't expect people to lay down the cash just because you feel that you overexert yourself by printing a label, or wrapping up a head to ship it. Also, i did state earlier that there is a difference in people putting work up on Ebay and the BIDDERS jacking up the price, than there is someone just stating "oh, my work is worth three hundred dollars, please pay me now".

From the time someone PMs me about commissions, i reply, they send the head and pay me via paypal, i paint the head, wrap it, and send it home. it's as simple as that. It's not stressful, it's not a job...and i most certainly would not expect someone to pay me for 'stressing' myself out. Dont' get me wrong, you seem nice, and devoted to your work....but I really am not getting where you feel the one hundred dollars would be justifiable. ::shrugs::

 

I don't see any snideness or nasty jabs at all, but then I'm relatively new here and have no idea if there's some kind of history that is sailing right over my head.

Bottom line for me: I've supported myself in the arts in various mediums over the years. It isn't easy, it isn't "fun", and loving it doesn't make it any less stressful than any other work in the end.

I have heard frequent accusations of overpricing on my (for people) jewelry, and in every single case, it was because people were comparing my work to something they'd find in Claire's or WalMart. Then again, WalMart and Claire's tend not to carry pieces that include single beads that cost -me- $60 wholesale, but that's not going to make a difference to someone who just thinks every necklace they like should be $25 or less and how dare I charge more than that. Usually, this is the same people who are wearing $65 Ralph Lauren earrings made of plastic and plated metal and screaming about the price of my sterling silver and freshwater pearl earrings at $25-$50. (Other jewelry vendors usually scream at me for exactly the opposite reason -- that for the work involved, my pieces are too cheaply priced.)

 

that wasn't directed at you (The nastiness commment, but in the thread before hand...sorry) I understand what you mean. I just think that there are people who justifiably price themselves high, because the things they make are insanely high-quality. Then there are people who put little work in their things, and expect to sell for top dollar. Just go look at Ebay, if you don't believe me. I saw a lolita style dress that looked like it could have been made in an few hours, and they had a 250 price tag on it...and then they were complaining on another forum that their stuff never gets bids, and everyone in the community is just cheap.

I had an outfit that didn't sell....i priced it at 100.00...it took forever to make, and in the end, no one wanted it. No big, just how the game works...but i pulled it, and i am now keeping it.

 

There are people who will price with whatever they can get away with, but that exists in every industry. If people are willing to pay it... well, I don't know what to say there. I have seen horrors enough on eBay to know the general idea.

This thread is doing pretty well to remind me why this is going to be the one hobby that never turns into a job of any kind -- these kinds of debates, specifically, are difficult because there are so many variables to consider. (Please, please, please, anyone and everyone reading this, remind me of that if ever I try to sell anything that isn't 'oh this is a wig I bought that didn't work for my collection', I beg of you all.)

I have less an issue with people who are making things charging whatever they like -- even if their prices are at the higher end of the scale -- than I do with people who speculate on the popularity of limited items or one of a kind creations purely for the purpose of selling them on later at high markup. Good work or bad, my taste or not, whether I'd pay that price or not, I see it this way: they have done some work other than pressing the 'buy me now' button at an opportune time and then created an auction listing.

We really are used to mass production prices and imports far more than we realize, along with discount stores and seasonal merchandise. And by that, I include things like 'all sandals will be sold at at least 50% off come September, so we know we can get them cheap later'. That kind of seasonal trend pricing isn't quite as common for something like this. *glances back at pile of shoes in the hallway, coughs quietly, stares innocently at the ceiling* Not that I know anything about that kind of shopping habit, nooooo...

 

I am not jumping on anyone, I did not even read this whole thread, sorry if you think I am jumping on you. I also do not think I used any snide remarks or any nasty jabs.

As far as the printed labels, I do them at work and sometimes the printer may not work or other mishaps which I do not want to go into details about. I don't do handwritten ones cos then that means I have to go to the PO and mail it out and with me working 10 days it's a little hard to get there.

I also am not hyping anything up to justify my sales, I have no problem selling my stuff, I think you misunderstood everything in my post. I DO NOT do this because it is a job, I am very passionate about painting dolls and anyone that knows me knows this. Wow. And I also don't expect people to "lay down" cash because I over exert myself, I do many favors for people and do not even charge them for it at all. You took everything I said and are misconstruing it, wow. Also what is stressful for me may not be to you, I do all of this on my own time when I get home from work and the weekends.

So you think I do not deserve $100.00 for my work, ok, that is your opinion but I disagree with you. I have done many freebies in the past because of my passion for the hobby.

BAH! I should have never posted here in this forum, I am no good at defending myself

 

Frankly you just described how you responded to people disagreeing with you, not how they treated you.

I couldn't agree more Syrinxfox. You can't put a table of fees on someone's craft, they charge what they feel their service is worth. Do paintings all cost the same? Is it the same price to have someone come to your home an paint a mural from one artist to the next? Of course not. You aren't just paying for a person's time and supplies with a "tip" on top, you are paying for what they feel their skill, talent and creativity are worth. No one should be so presumptuous to assume they know what an artist should charge for their work or what is acceptable. That is their choice, their business. It's pretty simple, if you don't feel that it is, don't buy from them. If they are talented, they won't have a problem selling their craft to those that find that value in it.

 

I'm agreeing with surreality about not seeing the snide comments or nasty jabs, either.

However, I DO see self-defensiveness against commentary that has been made about "insane" and "ridiculous" pricing and allusions being made that there are artists here on this board who are known for "fetching insanely high prices" without having the talent to back it up.

The topic question was, if I am not mistaken, "Why do people charge so much?" in terms of doll-related commissionable goods and services for sale on this board.

People have been, if I am also not mistaken, addressing possibilities in why people are pricing their goods and services the way they are with the people who are offering their goods and services stepping up to the plate and answering the questions themselves.

One's not required to agree with what's being said (obviously not, and this is a debate after all), but after one insinuates that people are charging ridiculous amounts of money and that people are known for "fetching insanely high prices" with questionable talent to back it up...

A bit of defensiveness is, in my mind, to be expected, especially when the people who are acting defensive have very openly explained and laid out just why they charge what they charge.

In the end, no one told anyone that they HAVE to purchase from XYZ person, right?

And no one's forcing anyone else at gunpoint to get a faceup from SDink or from whomever else, right?

They have their notions on what's 'worth it' and you have yours.

And they just happen to be different.

To shift the topic a bit -

It's interesting that in conversations such as these, there are talks about people overcharging for their goods and services... but there is rarely talk about people who sell themselves and their services short.

In some ways, I wonder if it's not just an issue of people 'charging so much' but also an issue of people 'not charging enough and selling themselves short' or, an issue of 'people will to work for less money'.

Referring back to my earlier post where I mentioned encountering this same question in my career, I mentioned that people are asking 'Why are you charging so much when I can get ABC to do it for cheaper?' The issue, in some of those cases, wasn't that -I- was charging too much - the amount I was charging was that of the current industry-level rate and a little less in fact - but the fact that the OTHER people were selling themselves short or were willing to do the same things for less money, which was giving other people a skewed vision on what the going industry rate was.

 

Can I just frame this and put it somewhere nice for quoting whenever this subject comes up? It is very true, every word of it. It is absolutely a very overlooked discussion point.

 

I find it quite amazing that you find no stress in trying to do something exactly how somebody else wants things done.

In regards to SDink, I find it quite astounding the quality of work that's done, and just how many people were on her waiting list just for a slim chance to get a faceup done. And that was at $100/faceup! WOW - that tells me that's some amazing work! And to have had the opportunity to work with her, I can tell you that she will do her BEST to make her customers happy.

Honestly, I pay top dollar to not only have the work done to my standard, but to have the customer service I expect. And sometimes, that means paying more for their time. When I commission something, I expect that person to put a lot of work into whatever it is I've commissioned. I've done faceups myself, and I sew my own clothing; I know how difficult it can be to do it for myself - there's a reason I don't offer my services on a commission basis! I couldn't do it - waaaaay too stressful.

However, making clothes that I like to make, when I want to make them - way less stressful and a ton of fun. I can then sell those items at a price that seems fair for the amount of work & detail goes into each individual piece. One-of-a-kind items, obviously, will sell for a little bit more (regardless of who is making them) than items that are produced several times over.

I also agree with Iikaya. Very well put!

Just my 2 cents worth on the topic today ^_^

 

There is always the question as what is too much. When i started my company making hats, we decided what was right for our own product. There are others out there that sell similar hats, but they are not made the same way, so we had to take that into consideration. At conventions we usually hear people comment on how another dealer is selling hats cheeper and they will buy from them. Thats ok, we know that not everyone can afford or want to spend that much on it, but there are still alot of people who do see the diffference and are willing to pay.

I also teach Fashion Design and Merchanding and price points is one of the major topics that is discussed. Lower quality equals cheeper prices, more will be sold and good money will be made. Higher quality equals higher prices, less will be sold but you will still make money. Most major design houses have multiple price points and design levels to try to reach all types of consumers.

I hope this helps

 

People will always see it justifiable to charge the "market bearing price." That's the way it is in every industry. No matter how good one particular work is, if no one is willing to pay the asking price -whether by matter of luck or circumstance -then the price will go down. As long as there are people willing to pay the asking price, the person asking will raise the price constantly until demand drops forcing them to decrease the price again or they'll come to a point where they are getting enough demand for a particular price to maximize they're profits.

There is no doubt in my mind though that some offer their time and work as a hobby and some purely for profit. As long as people are still responding to the prices being asked it's working out for the parties involved. If you don't like the prices, don't pay it and look for goods and services elsewhere. There might come a day when the majority agrees with you and the respective persons providing goods and/or service are forced to drop their prices -until enough people start paying those prices for them to justify raising them again. *LOL*

 

Not necessarily. I have a few jewelry pieces that used expensive materials -- we're talking $350+ in materials alone, no labor, no markup, no wholesale pricing in the final piece, no nothin' -- that I kept rather than reduce the price on. Naturally, since I'm attached to them now, and people ask how much they were, I could have sold them a dozen times over... of course.

"How much do I need to sell this" is a factor to work in to the equation, too.

 

To me, the sure sign that someone is overcharging is if nobody is willing to pay for what they sell. I think that if people are still buying, and it's an optional item (as dolls, faceups, fancy clothes, etc are- I'm not talking food and gasoline here), then there are obviously people willing to pay the price, and therefore the price is reasonable to at least some people. Simple as that. : )

As for pricing a faceup or other custom work high, keep in mind that people who charge higher prices may have more expensive equipment that they need to pay off. An airbrush can cost hundreds of dollars, and that money needs to be made back. How about a repirator mask and filters if you're doing a lot of faceups and don't want to inhale MSC and paint fumes? Or painting classes they've taken and paid money for so that they can do better faceups?

And, on top of that, if the person is doing it as a job they have to make a fair wage or it isn't worth it. If they can make $8 an hour working somewhere, why sell their faceup work for $2 an hour? Sure for some people it's just a hobby and they don't need to make money back from it, but for a lot of people, they need to make something or it isn't worth it. I know a few artists who don't actually make a fair wage for the prices they sell at, but they're usually either young with very few expenses, retired and doing it more for fun, or they are supported by someone who makes enough money that it's ok if they don't make much at all(a spouse or parent or whoever). And to top it off, everyone's time isn't worth the same amount. If I were to have surgery I'd rather have it done by someone earning $75 an hour to make up for all the extensive years of education and training they've gone through (not to mention malpractice insurance) than someone earning $7.50 who could probably quit and make more money getting a job as a manager at a KFC, and who isn't properly insured in case anything goes wrong. A doctor's time is worth more than a fast food worker's. Similarly I think a trained and skilled artist's time is worth more than a hobbyist's who is only so-so. If I have the money, I'd rather have something great than something just okay, and I'd be willing to spend more to get it since, to me, it's worth more.

And, although you might be annoyed, when it's a service you're buying, pricing it high can also be a way of making sure the seller isn't overloaded. If a faceup is going for $100, they will probably get half the customers they would if it sold for $50, and they are less likely to be overloaded. If it's a choice between high prices but not limiting the number of customers, and low prices but limiting the number of customers, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think either one is fair for the artist to choose, really.

Anyway, I'm not ashamed to admit, I've bought a $100 faceup. It was the premium faceup offered by the company, and though I thought at first "how absurd, who would pay that much?!" I realized when they posted the general and premium faceup samples that I thought the premium faceup really looked so much better that it was worth it to me! But for other people it wasn't worth it and they bought the cheaper one. There will always be people who are just starting out who offer free or cheap faceups and people who are experienced and skilled who offer expensive ones, and a whole range inbetween. So it's up the the buyer to choose what they want. CBAB, you've already said you would rather do the faceup yourself than pay for an expensive faceup and that's fine for you. If I could do a beautiful faceup myself then I probably would. Then again, as an artist I can still respect the work of others, and know everything that goes into it, and want to pay a high price for that reason as well. Its my choice whether I want to spend the price of supplies and do it myself, or $35, or $100, and you have the same choice. Nobody is making you buy a $100 faceup.