Why do people charge so much?

I attend school with a lot of artists who are selling their work on a regular basis, some because they have to make money and some because they really want to make saleable work, so I hear a lot of this "pricing" discussion, especially between the newer artists and a few who are pretty established, do a lot of art shows and sell a good deal of work. I think it's emotional, too. If an artist prices something they made and someone else comes along and says "oh, too high" it's easy for that artist to feel that people don't understand what goes into making the piece or that they're saying it's not quality enough work to be worth that. On the other hand, I think a lot of artists also think "gee I priced too low" when something sells right away, and in some cases they did price too low but in other cases it shows that they set the price right where their target market could afford - i.e. if your audience is young people and students then you have to set the price where those people can afford it, if you charge more it will sit on the shelf. Or else that artist was just having a lucky day.

I can see why so many artists let galleries and so forth help them with pricing decisions, because it's very hard to decide "how much" when you're emotionally as well as physically/time wise involved with creating a piece.

The doll hobby is a little odd in that it draws people of all ages and many income levels. There will always be a group that thinks the price is way too high on something, and another group ready to step right up to the plate and throw down money. This gives birth to the approximately ten thousand money and price discussions we have on this board.

 

My guess is that for some faceup artists it is a hobby, so they dont mind charging less, since they get to paint a dolls for the fun of it. But for some it is a means of support. For these artists, they have to charge more or do something else with their time, so they can pay their bills. Now I would rather pay for a more expensive faceup so they can continue to do it, rather then have them waste their talent and work at something less fulfilling for them.

But I do hate that we seem to enjoy making our "golden geese" feel guilty about charging what they have to, to continue what they are doing for us. Or on how they pic their customers. Everytime I see one of these arguments come up, it makes me want to cringe. Over time this is what drives people away from selling their creations in this hobby- all the wank.

A hundred for an excellent faceup- that is so reasonable, a typical faceup must take more then 4 hours to do, I paid my house painter 19 an hour 7 years ago. And though that is a skill, it is not nearly the level of skill as a faceup artist.

This hobby is about playing with dolls, it is supposed to be fun- if you cant afford an expensive faceup- their are plenty of very good hobbiests that will give you a very good break on pricing. And they should be appreciated for it as well.

 

See, my feeling is that artists shouldn't be so sensitive and defensive. If someone does not want to pay the price for a 100-dollar faceup, it's the same as if they chose to buy a cheap Fdoll body instead of a more expensive Volks or Luts body. In some cases the person would rather have the expensive thing, but can't afford it; in some cases the person thinks the expensive thing is too much and would rather have the more economically priced option; and in some cases the person actually likes the cheap option better for reasons apart from the price. Volks doesn't run home and cry every time somebody buys an Fdoll body instead. They know their product is good and that there are more than enough people lined up to buy it already.

When I see an artist getting defensive about their work, it makes me far less likely to commission them or buy their work, even if I like it, because they seem temperamental to me, and I'd rather not take the risk of having to deal with that. Furthermore, artists and people in the doll hobby everywhere need to understand that not everybody is going to like everything and you have to just be willing to say "well, that's tough cookies" and not expect people to coddle you or be extra nice for fear you'll stop selling your work due to wank. I'm way more of a business person in that respect, at the end of the day if you have plenty of customers already then there's no point starting arguments and trying to defend yourself against naysayers because it's simply unimportant.

 

Well said, bunnydots. I feel the same way. A faceup can be simultaneously worth $100 and not worth it to an individual. I've been fortunate enough to work with more than one excellent faceup artist, none of whom I've paid more than $50 each for and most all of which have ended up exactly as I wanted them.

For me personally it's about aesthetics. Personally I prefer the Fantasy Doll bodies over LUTS bodies-- I love the posing on them, I love how much lighter the resin is (and so do my arms when it comes time to carry them about to meetups and the like) and I love the design to them. The torso bend and the way the sculpt looks are big pluses to me. But I also understand that a lot of people would perfer the LUTS bodies for the very reasons I prefer Fantasy Doll-- some people don't like the torso bend, prefer the heavier resin casts, and some people are pickier with resin matches than I am and want to have a body cast at the same time as their head to ensure a perfect match. All perfectly valid reasons.

If, as an artist, you find that people are willing to spend upwards of $50-100 for your work, congratulations. You're obviously talented and have customer service skills to where people think your work is valuable. But this doesn't mean everyone does. Some people will balk at the price, and that's to be expected. I do agree that people can be a bit rude about it, though. It's one thing to find a price personally unreasonable, it's quite another to throw a big hissy fit over it either as the artist or potential commissioner.

 

For me, if people like my stuff they will buy it (going back to my pots/ceramics). If they don't want to pay it or think I am expensive (and I've had people come to me, up to my face and tell me they can get mugs at the dollar store for $2 while mine are $28) they can go... well, buy someplace else.

I offer a service and a value add. People will either want that or not. What I do is very specific (historical pottery, which no, the dollar tree down the street doesn't have, thank you very much, m'Lord Robin Hood). So, that said, my next door neighbor IS perfectly happy with his $1 coffee mug. It serves his purpose. But for someone in the clubs and historical reinactors, my stuff is essential.

I know that's sort of a weird example, but I thing that fits too with what a few of you were saying. Some people are perfectly happy with $25 face ups, or even NO face ups at all (I've seen that too) while others like the looks of Pookie, Dark Castle or many of the super dooper expensive Japanese or Korean artists. To each their own.

I don't think there is a black and white, "fair price" or "over price" in this discussion. If someone is willing to pay that, why judge the artist or the client? Both parties are happy, why bring drama into it?

 

It's not unimportant. I think a lot of artists are defensive about their prices because there are a lot of people who will try and get a discount just because they disagree with the prices or just think they somehow deserve it. I think it's easier to say somewhere public "X-service costs $Y becasue..." then have to reply to a ton of PMs from people asking for a discount. Maybe if people could understand that the price listed is THE price they will get then artists wouldn't feel the need to defend their prices. I have been PMed by a number of people wanting a combination of services at one time and asking for a discount. Sure they are asking for a lot but it's still just as much work. As I'm sure other artists do, I have priced my work so that I feel it's a good price for the quality, and it's enough to make it worth my time. Some people don't seem to understand that or they feel that they are somehow entitled to get a better price than I charge everybody else. At least for me this is why for certain services I have a note for why they cost as much as they do. I can either make a public justification for the prices once or I can do it 100 times privately. I don't care what people think about my prices or my work, they'll either commission me or they won't. I just wish some people didn't think they they deserved some kind of special discount. I'm sure the same people don't walk into Wal*Mart and ask them for a discount on a TV. I just don't understand why they feel like they can do that with an artist or seamstress.

I should mention this isn't just an issue with people selling services. Just re-selling clothes, wigs etc. I have had people ask for either free shipping or a discount. I list things at what I consider to be a fair price and I'm sure that most other people do too. People still feel the need to ask for some kind of discount though. "Can I have free shipping or that other thing tossed in for free?" I've talked to lots of people who have had this happen to them. It's really quite insulting.

Note: I should mention that the people asking for a discount (on anything, services or re-sales) are the minority and when I say no they usually never get back to me.

 

Access. That's the why. Whoever made the TV isn't right there for them to talk to about the price -- some of these people probably would if the rep from the TV maker was standing there in the store. You can bet that they've asked if there's a floor model they can get cheaper, and have wandered through the closeout aisle first.

As for why people will explain pricing, back to the more general topic, a lot of it has to do with people genuinely not knowing what kind of work goes in to something, or the real cost of materials. I have to do that often when selling jewelry, because at a glance, not everyone knows the difference between glass and semiprecious stone, or even glass and plastic. They may not realize that vintage glass is substantially more expensive to use than the stuff they would find at the local craft store, or that those anodized titanium links in that necklace cost well a good deal of money per ounce. They may not be able to spot the difference between vintage, hand made lace and something bought yesterday that feels like plastic and was pennies per yard, or the difference between silk velvet and synthetic velour.

Sometimes, those things really don't matter. The person is just trying to be a complete ass and put down something they liked but realized they can't afford by somehow hurting/insulting you as the creator. They realize it's beyond their means and that stings them because they see something they want, and they can't have it.

Other times, and thankfully this is a bit more common, people genuinely don't know, but are very interested in these details, because they are the details that made the work appeal to them in the first place. They may not be able to afford that piece, but they now know a bit more about something that they like so they can seek out an option they may better be able to afford in the future. I've had people come back at later shows to get something they had previously dismissed as overpriced after going through this process and realizing, 'Hey, this person really wasn't trying to gouge me at all!' I've had the same experience with people who try to laugh off labor costs with, "Hmmph! I'll do it myself if you're going to charge me for labor!" -- more than one of those has come back after trying it on their own and seeing just how much work is really involved.

 

The "discount" aspect is very true, as is sometimes the idea that "since I'm your friend/know you/have met you/bumped into you at a meet for five minutes I should get special discount/priority/something" too. It's sort of odd since I had this conversation with another friend of mine that expected her friends to give her discounts as in her country (she is from India) everything is negotiated. There is no set price. Plus, in her culture, friends/family are "treated" special. I explained to her that I treat my friends as I would want to be treated. Why would I want them to lose money for me? Pay the fair price. We're not selling for charity. Break even at least.

I never expect someone to lose money when they do something for me. NEVER. And if upsets me when people come to me and offer me half or whatever. You wouldn't go into a Macy's and offer them 1/3 of the price on a handbag, would you? Or if you did, they would laugh at you out right. Why do people think, unless you have that in your thread, that you would do deals/discounts?

I feel bad for all artists that have to explain why their prices are the way they are. If someone is considered "tempermental" because they are explaining why they price things out... I'm not sure if I understand that. Isn't that a little "damned if you do, damned if you don't?" So, that if you don't explain your pricing, you are labeled price gouging, but if you DO explain, you are tempermental? I think I'd rather go for the tempermental pool. Isn't there a medium ground, like, "Oh, now I understand and get it?" pool? I'd rather take that.

 

I agree with this comment. I feel that if people are willing to pay a price that others find to expensive, its up to them how they spend their money and why bother both the artist and the client if they have come to an agreement that they feel is ok.

 

Well, there's one way to deal with that: "That's how much it is. If you don't want to pay, sorry." The end. No breakdown of all the different tasks it takes, no justifications of any sort. Just that's it and move on, no more communication unless the customer ponies up the full amount. I really don't understand the discount mentality as it applies to anything - modern society generally doesn't bargain for stuff. Maybe at a swap meet or an antique show only, but one doesn't go into Volks, Saks or Wal-mart and try to wheedle down the price from what it's tagged on the item. Nor does one go into a beauty salon and ask for a discount rate on a haircut and color service. Even for art, I don't go into an art gallery and try to talk the gallery owner into knocking down the price on a painting from what it is listed in the catalog. Simply saying "the price is the price" should be the end of discussion.

And this is not to put the blame on the artist for fomenting drama in these situations, if anything I think artists are to blame in that they are too nice to people. All you artists need business managers to throw deadbeats out of your office, figuratively speaking

 

I don't understand why artists would even give a civilized answer to anyone who accused them of price gouging. Let's say you have ten people lined up for commissions, happy to pay your price with no discussion required. Person 11 shows up and whines about the price, makes some noises about gouging. I personally don't see why Artist doesn't just hang up the phone on Person 11, but that's just me. Let's say Person 11 is a friend of Artist or somebody Artist doesn't want to just hang up on for whatever reason. OK, Artist gives a calm explanation of why the price is so high. The thing is, how many times is Person 11 going to say "Oh OK, now I see, it all makes sense to me now, I will gladly be quiet and pay"? Maybe sometimes, but more likely Person 11 has already decided the price is too high for them and no explanation is going to change their mind. Like teaching pigs to sing.

So at this point if Artist simply washes their hands of Person 11 with a "sorry you feel that way" and turns back to happy customers 1-10 then all is well. If, on the other hand, Artist become upset because a minority percentage of their overall customer base is complaining about "price gouging" and feels some need to make repeated justifications, explanations, or run around asking everybody if they think the price is really fair, that's where it begins to bother me...because the majority of customers 1 through 10 were not having a problem and to me it just seems like too much drama and has actually turned me off from the works of a few people. This is just my experience and maybe other people are more sympathetic or less bothered but I really prize a businesslike attitude from people I deal with.

 

Sort of aside note, Bunnydots, I agree with this. Also to add, that art school should teach classes on business management, how to sell, how to sell your work, how to price (well at least give you an idea) and how to deal with people. When I was in art school, NONE of this was talked about. I come from a corporate/business background anyway, but it is very different (at least for me) to sell my own stuff however (even though it shouldn't be). I've spoken to many other artists and they agree that this would have been helpful to them as in, having the guidance to learn how to pitch to galleries, publications (for illustrators/2-d artists and photographers) and in general practical knowledge.

Well, I think everyone is different in how they react to how people react to them. Me, if someone is a !@#$%? to me, and I am nice to them to a point (or try to be), I blow them off. No big deal. Especially if they critize how I do business. I've been doing this a long time and words, well, you know. Other people try to make everyone happy or they are a lot more sensitive. I sort of feel like those people are far better than I am because they do care. I feel bad for them. Should they let things roll off them (like #11)... maybe. Should we get frustrated with them? Nah. Maybe helping them out with dealing with those people might be the better idea, or not. I don't know. It's hard to say. What bothers me more are people that complain and complain and COMPLAIN (which, dood, I kick myself around not to do, believe me) about life. Or those that judge everyone all the time, or negative. I think if there was a lot more people helping people out and a lot less drama, I think there would be SO much more happiness.

And no, good god, I hope I am not squeezing out rainbows and unicorns out of my unmentionables right now. Just sayin'. No judging anyone here.

Chocolate anyone?

 

That's fine, Mercy. I'm not a particularly helpful type of soul, I'll grant you. But I do like chawkies. And cakes.

 

Thanks for the chocolate Mercy & the thoughtful and humorous comments to this thread.

The original question is a good one. I wondered about the high prices too... until I saw some of the faceups in person. It's completely subjective & has as much to do with the workmanship as the emotional tug on your heartstrings. If a piece of works actually touches your heart, it's priceless to you!

But again, it's completely subjective what a piece of art should cost. Besides the obvious costs of supplies & huge amounts of time, the good artists actually invest a bit of themselves into their work.

Economically, there are fewer of the more popular artists accepting commisions than there are people clamouring for their services. So naturally, the prices go up.

And realistically, if a faceup artists works sells on ebay (or the open market) for $500 and up, it would be ridiculous if the artist didn't get paid fairly for their time & effort for a commision. Otherwise people would just commision the work for cheap & then auction it off & make a killing. And that just wouldn't be right!!!

 

as for doll clothes. working on the itty bitty scale is annoying. i would charge alot too. hehe, but i'm still cheap when it comes to clothes. sometimes i feel like the sellers are going "well that paid that much for the doll, so we know they have money. let's rip 'em off!" i bet some think that but plenty don't.

 

I don't believe that any of the crafters here think that when pricing their items.

 

I've never felt ripped off by a handcrafted purchase I've made on DoA. If anything, I've felt some of the people undercharged me for their lovely work.

 

*grumble* man. for all the cash i have blown on tiny shirts and junk.....

i could have SO MANY PAPER DOLLS WITH THE MOST AWESOME CLOTHES EVER.

hahahah i'm being cheeky. but i dunno...it is an expensive hobby, in its essence...if it's too expensive, it's discouraging, i agree...but one doesn't have to go overboard..and i think pace yourself and take a breather if your wallet is cryin' too hard for one month... ^_^ as soon as ANYTHING stops being fun, for either the brilliant artists making doll clothes, or the wonderful people supporting them, then it's not worth any amount of time, money or energy in the world.

 

When I make something for anyone, I most certainly don't think "heh heh heh, this person's doll is expensive, I can load [the price] for whatever I can squeeze out of them", nor do I feel I can get by with anything less than the best, most perfect work I can do. I've on some occasions done up to 4 versions of something, to see what is best & most effective, or because I didn't like the way it turned out/fitted, or wasn't satisfied with some detail of finishing, etc. which WOULD have been fully acceptable, & the client certainly wouldn't notice or know - but I would.

I make my things with the aim in view of mentally seeing my client opening their package, folding back the tissue, & a smile of delight & pleasure - perhaps even wonder - spreading across their faces as they lift out the items, look them over, inspect the handwork & finishing details, and then put them on their doll - & the pleasure & pride they get to see that doll so exquisitely dressed or bejewelled; plus a feeling that they got their money's worth, and then some; and hopefully a determination or thought that they will buy/order from me again, & pass my name on to friends or others, not just as an honest, fair vendor, but as someone who is a master craftsperson, as well as a gifted artist. It's such an ego-boo to get an email from someone saying something to the effect of, 'your stuff is so gorgeous, I'd like to have some' to the point where they're willing to spend money - sometimes quite a lot of it - not to mention some effort on their behalf deciding on colors or fabrics or effects (unless they just cede it all to me, of course).

It's a shame & a pity that artists throughout time (with the exception of a very few who become Fashionable) in any medium have had to submit to selling at or below what they should; to defend their prices; to fend off demands for discounts or lagniappe from ignorant, greedy, or tightwad clients; to have people in general sneer 'you want HOW much for THAT? It's not worth it!' when they themselves couldn't produce anything nearly as good, as beautiful, etc. if you held a gun to their heads, never have, & never will.

I'll admit, when I first came to BJD-dom, I was aghast at the prices in general, and even more so at some of the more limited, small-shop issues, like Limhwa or Supia; but then I started learning more about them, & seeing the gorgeous dolls, & got a little first-hand experience at both modding & making dolls themselves - & I could very well understand WHY the prices were so "high", & even to feel that I was getting a bargain, even at $800 per doll - plus the eyes, wigs, clothes, etc. Especially with some of the handmade ones like Supia or Limhwa, the labor & artistry that goes into them is tremendous not to mention time consuming. And actually, half the fun of getting a new doll is finishing it myself: sanding it, cleaning it, modding it, doing the faceup & body blush, choosing wigs, eyes, a Look, etc. The artist has provided me with an opportunity & a blank canvas to exercise my own artistic talents in turn, which of itself is a bonus and of value - to me, at least.

I feel badly for those who yearn for the level of product artists provide but who can't afford it. As I said, if I charged for my labor, Bill Gates or Oprah Winfrey couldn't afford my stuff. What I do, the level of detail & loving care & artistry I put into it, is far more akin to the incredible levels of handwork seen in items crafted by artisans & monk/nun artists in medieval times on items for the use of the Church: labors of love, not money.

Also, (and of course I can't speak for others) when I'm working on an item for someone else, I think of that person, & their doll; how it will look; how they'll like it, etc. It's almost a sort of benediction passed into the very fabric of the item being made. At least, I hope it is, & that it confers some sort of benefit on some plane besides the mere physical, even if extremely latent. I know when I receive an item made for me, that item comes with the maker's thoughts, intents, & best wishes or blessings if you will. Someone spent a lot of time thinking of me benignly. That means much to me, & should to anyone, in this detached, impersonal day & age.

I still DO hold caveats in regards to those companies who charge high prices for their mass-produced factory-made items, well beyond what the stuff is worth, because they can. There's no artistry there, just calculation to get as much as possible while delivering as little as possible. In these cases, I remain severe & condemning: that's just sheer greed, pure & simple. Yes, they must make a living, cover their expenses, possibly account to stockholders - but so do the oil companies, & I think most if not all of us can agree THEY are a stellar example of pure & simple greed & ruthless profiteering to line their own already-well-lined pockets regardless of the expense to others, or the suffering their rapacity produces down the line in terms of price hikes in fuel, food, or anything & everything else. Commerically produced doll companies, while not as extreme or egregious in their example as the oil companies, are still in that same category because the ... the only word I can think of is 'motive' but that's not correct ... I mean, the only thing they're in it for, is profit. Whereas the artist(s) are in it for love of their craft & product, as well as (hopefully) making a living if they can.

I hope this made sense.

 

I really don't think people are thinking this. I think, possibly, that some artists may think, "finally a venue where my love of dolls and my art can be appreciated for what it's worth." Maybe?

I think sewing, since so many people CAN do (not me, I suck) is heavily looked at like you do. The eye of, "she's charging to much! I can make that for half!" I know I have a number of seamstress friends that say that to me when they look at my doll clothing collection and when I tell them, "Fine. Make it then," they flake. Or they do make it, and it's just not very good.

One of my very good friends actually DID make stuff, which I am very proud of. It took her awhile, but she's doing really lovely stuff which is totally worth the price. But she isn't one of the people saying she could do it cheaper, she said she could do it better.