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Would a mass-produced BJD be negative or positive for the hobby?

Dec 10, 2008

    1. While I personally don't have much experience with Ashton Drake, I have worked for several companies like them. One company in particular I remember sending photos of dolls for test marketing, and when they appeared on their website, the dresses were different, with added trims etc, or hair etc etc... they did not physically have the dolls, so they must have photoshopped them. It was a little strange to look at it, notice it was different and second guess my sanity:D
      The artist's original prototype is also often used, so the company doesn't have the expense of making a production piece when they aren't sure it would get enough orders to make it worth going ahead. I'd agree this would be a mockup, to test the waters.. mind you with the popularity of Hannah Montana I'd have thought they could sell as many as they wanted and there'd be no risk of making a physical prototype doll:D
       
    2. oops I'm sorry!:)
       
    3. I agree with Gwydion. "Weird doll collector" is sort of like "crazy cat lady". We all know a few people who collect things and are off the beam but there are so many people of all stripes who collect dolls, just like there's so many that have cats, that any stigma doesn't get very far overall.

      I also appreciate the point being made about the antique dolls and even the newer artist originals. When I was interested in artist OOAK porcelain and sculpey dolls in the early 90s, they routinely went for 500 to 1500 dollars per doll. I didn't have that kind of money then so I didn't buy any, but between that and the eBay prices for collector's or antique dolls, I have never batted much of an eye at what BJDs cost. The first thing I ever went on eBay looking for was a vintage 1935 Shirley Temple doll as a gift for my mom and the average price of those was around a thousand dollars. I realize a lot of people on DoA may be students or artists who don't routinely have or spend that kind of money, but placed in perspective of the general doll collection hobby, resin doll cost is about on par.

      I sometimes feel that all the posts about "stigma" and "oooo so much money" are just encouraging people to feel that there's something weird about the hobby that's largely imaginary. I know some people who go to cons can get flak for carrying around a doll, but the idea of the small subset of people who go to cons dictating the entire image of doll collectors is laughable.
       
    4. There are a lot of insightful and well-expressed comments on this discussion. Krissy and Gwydion, I really like what both of you have to say.

      For myself, I really don't think that a mass-produced BJD would have much impact on our hobby. I've loved all kinds of dolls for as long as I can remember and I'd probably be interested in at least seeing a mass-produced one. But now that I've been spoiled by the beauty and unlimited customization aspects of our dolls, mass-produced ones just don't have the same appeal.

      And JennyNemesis, what's wrong with "America's Next Top Model"? ;) I have to admit that I do watch that show, but mainly for the cool photo shoots. It's definitely a guilty pleasure!
       
    5. (I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this is redundant) I don't like normal dolls, they seem like shells to me and they don't move the way that I'd like, I've always liked action figures more in that respect. But when I read about bjds in a book (Japan Ai: A Tall Girl's Adventure in Japan), the idea really appealed to me so I looked it up. The whole point for me is being able to make it into what I want it to be. Also, I don't like many of the popular molds enough to buy them. I like quirky stuff so I don't think it would appeal to me.

      Also, no offense to anyone, but I can't see a mass-produced doll of an SD size doing well in the U.S. (Though I don't know much about doll-collecting on any scale o_0 I mean with the general populace) we're so used to Barbie size it's just mind-blowing to see a doll of that size. I know we're talking about all markets but I'm going to talk about what I understand. :) Also, I think there would be a crazy huge public outcry over mass-produced anatomically correct dolls. Though maybe if they were mass-produced they wouldn't be anatomically correct to appeal to more people.
       
    6. Well, they wouldn't have to make it anatomically correct, and there are a few bjd companies that aren't.

      There are dolls of all sizes, and larger dolls are easier to sew for, so I wouldn't count them out due to size. I do think price could be an issue--if they want strung dolls of decent quality, then they still aren't going to be super cheap, and after awhile (especially since there are more affordable resin abjds on the market now) they'll find themselves competing with the resin boys and girls in terms of cost. If they're sticking to cheap play dolls, then that would be different--but I wonder how well bjd would really translates into cheap play doll. It seems like the end product would be very very different from the dolls we have now.
       

    7. No offense taken here, because you are absolutely correct. And this is something I hadn't thought of earlier, but yeah, there is no way in H**l that Mattel would do a doll aimed primarily at American collectors that was anatomically correct, even moderately so. The public outrage, wrong though it may be, would be very vocal. God, I can see it now...the media would be all over it and doing their best to stir people up and it would work.

      I mean, honestly, there are people right here on DoA who have issues with the anatomical correctness of BJDs!
       
    8. (:lol: With me it's "WWE Smackdown".)
       
    9. When you say bjd, I'm thinking resin, and it's to my understanding, that making dolls out of this material can be rather challenging, and it's not as simple of just doing an injection mold with the plastic used for most regular dolls. That being said, a mass-produced bjd would probably have to be lower quality, after all, it can't cost more to make the product than it is to sell it. Not only the materials would have to change, but the labor used to design the doll, etc.

      Because of this, I think the doll companies, or individual artists we see today would either see it as a threat, or see it as a launching point to market themselves as the higher quality alternative, offering a better, more unique product, better customer service, and stressing the release of limiteds.

      There are always going to be people who hunt for the bargain and don't believe in purchasing for quality, but for people who do, if they saw the mass produced bjd, and it introduced them to better companies, they'll probably purchase from them instead.
      In short, I think a mass-produced bjd would be a positive opportunity for bjd companies and artists who do not mass produce.

      As for the social aspect of the hobby, I think the effect would be neutral. Those of us who despise the new bjd that showed up at Toys-R-Us would gather and discuss on a seperate forum. (I imagine, DoA would be this forum, with the mass-produced bjd on the off-topic list, haha). There would be forums where everyone gathers to discuss all types of bjds. There'd be a forum where people could be pissed off at the new bjds, and the noobs to the hobby with their crap dolls.
      This already happens. Life would go on in the community as it always has.
       
    10. Lots of people go into a hobby unsure about whether it will be something they are in for the long run or a fling that lasts a month or so. Sometimes having a less expensive option to start with allows one to determine if it is truly something they want to get in to. For me, I have sometimes bought less expensive items to see what I think about it, but if it is truly something I want to collect, I always go up to the nicer, higher quality items. Sounds like I am rambling, but it could be because it is almost 3:30 in the morning here. :p

      What I mean is, I agree that I don't think it would really adversely affect the ABJD companies. I admit, as someone else said, less expensive alternatives for clothing and accessories might be nice. lol!
       
    11. I'm speaking as one of those people who did start the BJD hobby with a less expensive option, a Goodreau BJD. And while I eventually sold her (too big for me!), having her for that short time allowed me to discover that I did indeed like BJDs and that I was interested in pursuing the hobby further.

      I bought the vinyl doll because yes, she was cheap. I'm in college, so I didn't want to drop a lot of money on a type of doll I wasn't sure I would like. But having compared a vinyl doll to a resin doll, I can honestly say I would rather pay more for the quality of resin.

      And that's what I think would happen to some people who were introduced to the hobby via a mass-produced version. To have the proclivity of a doll collector is something unique in and of itself, and I have found very few doll collectors who prefer cheap price over quality. And what I mean by that is if a doll collector gets into the BJD hobby via a cheaper option and then they later find out a more quality version of the same type of doll exists, then it is in my opinion that they will go for the more quality version if they decide to pursue the hobby. I've seen it happen with other types of OT dolls, where people go for the cheaper version first, but they all usually end up going for the more expensive, more quality version later on.

      I'm not dogging on vinyl dolls though, not at all. If you like them, then that's cool. I understand that not everybody is into the aesthetic of ABJDs, and vinyl dolls could be the answer for those type of people who like the type of doll (ABJD) by not their style.

      So would it affect the hobby? Not much, I think. Sure, you'd get maybe a few more people into the hobby, but not many. I think a mass-produced doll would attract different sorts of people than a non mass-produced resin one.
       
    12. I am wondering what a "mass produced" doll actually is. Is this based on edition size? Is "limited" 5 dolls and "mass produced" 100? When I really look at the variables, I'm not sure how to state my opinion on this question. Or is the defining item the price of the doll?
      I worked in the doll business for longer than I should, and I've seen a lot of changes in that time. I think you can take it as written that less expensive bjd-style dolls will hit the market and the market will change to accommodate this trend.
      For me, personally, I don't care if a doll is resin or vinyl. I don't care if the edition size is 1 or 100 or 1000. If I like it and enjoy playing with it, that is all that matters to me. I don't buy a doll because I believe that I'll be able to resell it at some fantastic profit. I buy it because I have every intention of keeping it and enjoying it. That may make me different from the bulk of bjd collectors. I have no idea. So for me, a mass produced doll would be just fine.
      When I look at the creativity of a company like Soom and the monthly dolls they produce, I don't think they need to fear another company who might try to copy and mass produce one of their designs for $29.95. But let's say a company copied the doll and produced it for $500 instead of $1000. I can see that something like that could damage the original producer. Of course, I would assume that there would be a great loss of quality, but if a customer wanted the "idea" of the doll and was willing to sacrifice a certain amount of quality then Soom would lose a sale. That is where a copyright would help, but possibly not prevent, the theft of the idea.
      My feeling is that the various companies will simply have to look out for themselves because there are already less expensive abjd's on the market. And I think there will be more.
      Competition is always, in my opinion, good. It challenges the top producers to do better and encourages the newcomers.
      :lol: I don't think I answered the question at all!
       
    13. Mass-produced BJD wouldn't effect the BJD-specialty-artistic doll market, especially now that the financial market has had its crisis.

      Parents go to the quickest, easiest, cheapest way to buy toys & dolls for their children each year. The limits are the plastic credit cards' limits. Children don't have little plastic credit cards, though, and the companies & stores know that.

      Back in 1990's, an art print company issued the first "limited edition" of 15,000!!!

      Traditionally, a "limited edition" in art/collecting, was 20 editions or less - all identical & signed by the artist. Those limited editions usually increased in value over time.
       
    14. I think having a mass-produced BJD would be a positive for two reasons:

      1) Chances are that these dolls would provide clothes and accessories for cash-strapped ABJD owners. I can remember when Mattel came out with the Teen Trends dolls and many MSD owners on this board posted about how they had a cheap source of doll clothes. Even now there are plenty of ABJD owners who use American Girl as a source for cheap furniture and other accessories--like an acoustic guitar or a bed. And those who own smaller ABJD's (29 cm and smaller) tend to use Barbie and Kelly outfits and accessories as cheap sources for their dolls.

      2) A mass-produced BJD would be an ideal solution for parents whose young children would want such dolls. Most parents are reluctant to purchase a limited-edition Volks Super Dollfie for--let's say--a five-year-old even if they could afford such a doll for a variety of reasons. (Like worrying that the child could break or lose such an expensive doll.) But a mass-produced BJD would be priced cheaper so a parent wouldn't have as many qualms about buying such a doll.

      I know that some people questioned how such a manufacturer would make a mass-produced BJD. I mentioned Teen Trends earlier in this post, which was Mattel's attempt to cash in on the BJD craze. Mattel made the Teen Trends dolls out of vinyl instead of resin. The dolls were strung with elastic on the inside (I know because I have a Kianna doll). They have ball-joints at the elbows and knees and tube-shaped joints at the shoulders and thighs. They had no joints at the waist, hands or feet.

      The big difference between Teen Trends dolls and ABJD's is the customization aspect. Teen Trends dolls have painted-on faces and rooted hair. Sure you could customize a Teen Trends doll by wiping the face with acetone before repainting it and cutting off all the hair so you could do a re-root job. But it's much more difficult to customize a Teen Trends doll than an ABJD.

      I think that any future mass-marketed BJDs would probably be manufactured in a similar way, especially if their target audience is children, so I seriously doubt that the ABJD market would be seriously affected.

      Also, don't forget that Tonner, Goodreau Dolls, Berdine Creeley, and Kimberly Lasher has come out with their own resin ball-jointed dolls complete with changeable eyes and wigs. (One such example is Evangeline Ghastly, which is distributed through Tonner's Wilde Imaginations subsidiary.) So far I haven't seen these dolls have much of a negative impact on the ABJD world.
       
    15. That's a good point. It would certainly help to have clothes and accessories that are much more reasonable and that actually fit. However, I would never dream anyone would be willing to hand a 5 year-old a Volks, or any resin BJD. Unless you're a wealthy parent and know about BJD's. Honestly, I can only imagine that young children who would want a BJD would be younger siblings or relatives of older owners. Kids these days hardly even play with dolls as it is - and what dolls they do play with are things like Bratz and Polly Pocket. They seem pretty content with the customizable ability of American Girl.
       
    16. "Playing with" a type of doll doesn't necessarily mean that you're "content with" that type. My sister and I would occasionally play with her Barbies, but we didn't like that they were virtually impossible to pose, couldn't stand on their own, and all looked exactly the same. So most of the time we used other toys (My Little Ponies, for instance) that, while they were less posable than even a Barbie, they could stand on their own and looked different from each other.

      As kids, we probably would have loved to have something that could stand up by itself, sit in a chair, touch its own face, all those things a BJD can do. I'm sure there are kids out there now who feel the same way (many of whom will probably eventually encounter ABJDs and join the hobby). I'm sure they'd love to get their hands on a more durable, ABJD-inspired, posable doll. Especially if another family member (parent, sibling) has a more expensive resin doll. (And, as others have mentioned, the rest of us wouldn't mind getting our hands on the clothes.)

      Another nice thing is that they could serve as a protection, of sorts, for the expensive dolls that are on topic here. In a similar idea, my dad collects elaborate, detailed, and fragile model cars and tractors. Toys, in other words. Toys that I have, on more than one occasion, removed from the hands of my young cousins during family gatherings at my parents' house. They keep a few kid-friendly toys around to replace those with and keep the kids distracted--they're protection for the collectable toys. A kid-friendly mass-produced doll, in turn, could work well as a distraction for visiting kids to mess around with and keep them away from the expensive ones.
       
    17. I think having a mass-produced BJD that still kept the aBJD style would be a positive, particularly for those interested in the hobby, but unsure about spending so much on their first doll.

      While I have been interested in aBJDs for some time the cost was initially off putting, which lead me to look at some of the more customizable fashion dolls, which while they still seemed expensive were more within an affordable price range. However that didn't diminish my interest in aBJDs - in fact it did just the opposite by making me appreciate the work behind them.
       
    18. Tonner has been producing a largish ball jointed doll--but not Asian--for a cheapish price ($150 for a fully-dressed, rooted-hair, painted eyes doll) and that doesn't effect us at all. I am shopping for my first big ABJD and haven't even considered a Tonner.

      Even the cheapest ABJD has more personality than the mass-produced dolls. Plus, resin is just a really nice weight and texture.
       
    19. Oh dear, I hope not
      Though it would certainly be affected, because most poeple would choose the cheaper versions of the dolls, I'm sure some will still feel attracted by the sheer beauty of the ones made from resin
       
    20. I don't know that most people would flock to cheaper versions. As it stands now, the most affordable abjds are still expensive--they only seem "cheap" because of how high abjd prices can climb. Comparable to other items, they are not inexpensive at all. I doubt that the prices can drop that much more and not really lose quality--that it will get to the point that the the truly inexpensive mass produced versions won't have a whole lot in common with abjds as we know them now. That's why I don't think it will have much if any affect. The mass produced dolls would probably cater to a different group of buyers.