Would you consider collecting BJDs a mainstream versus unique kind of hobby?

I don't think that's the deciding factor when it comes to whether or not the hobby (not the people) is mainstream. Considering that so few people know about bjds, the hobby has not reached anything near mainstream status.

 

It's not mainstream until Walmart has it in stock. XD

 

Definitely niche - if you tell folks here (in USA) that you collect dolls, they'll assume it's American Girl or maybe Barbie. I think the hobby is growing along with the popularity of Japanese media like anime and manga, but knowledge is still pretty much limited to hardcore doll fans and geeky girls.

 

As Annina from Sweden said, there aren't many people around us knowing this hobby. In Finland there aren't even any stores, that would sell any collectable doll (no Silkstone Barbies, Blythes etc. There are two very small stores in the internet in Finland that sell few dolls, but that's it. All the dolls we want, we have to get outside our country. Usually from U.S.A or Asian countries.) More and more younger people are collecting BJD though, in general the Asian culture has became more and more popular here.
In Scandinavia all sorts of doll collecting is still very limited. But it is getting more popular hobby day by day.

 

I think within the anime/manga/other asian related fandoms, bjds have become more mainstream. If you go to a convention, there are many dolls along the artist section and people seem to know and understand what they are, from my experience. However, in the US itself (I'm specifying my country because I don't know how people react to them in other countries) it is still very "unique" as you say, or very niche. I don't consider abjd collecting the same as doll collecting in general because when someone says doll collecting they generally think porcelain, female, big dresses, etc. (like I said, generally. Not always) If you refer to your doll as a bjd and they see it, things change because it is something different. It's about the classification, I think. Although I don't think people in my age group (20) look positively upon doll collecting anyhow, so it doesn't much matter that they are from asia. Um... I think my comment is somewhat circular. I seem to say nothing at all with this, but whatever. I get my own point.

 

It's kinda both. In the doll collectors world it's mainstream. BJDs fill the pages of every fashion doll magazine that exists... plus all the other doll magazines. Not everyone has one, but they see them constantly in those magazines. Has anyone else noticed the obitsu style BJD joints of Barbie? (I have one... she poses well) No doubt influenced by the joints of a BJD. In the doll world ABJDs are known and accepted... and it seems to make some doll companies experiment with the ball joints for posing their own dolls.

To the non-doll world... yeah... they don't really have a clue.

To explain what I mean by ball joints... ball and socket joints that allow for rotation and hinging (much like the human skeleton). The traditional definition of "ball joint doll" which doesn't involve stringing.

 

If you consider it to be general "doll collecting" then yes it is more "mainstream". Lots and lots of people collect dolls. When it comes down to it, BJDs are dolls. Yes, they are a specific type, but they are dolls in the end. "We" make clothes for them, photograph them, and do many things that collectors of other kinds of dolls do.

If you feel the need to group them separately from all other types of dolls, then yes it is more of a unique hobby in that one respect. I just see it as another type of doll, so I tend to see the BJD hobby more as that of any other doll collector. Maybe that is because I am not into the anime or story-making part of it..? I just like BJDs because they are beautiful and can be posed so nicely.

 

BJDs are not a mainstream hobby, if they were they would be cheaper to buy and easier to obtain. They are a very unique kind of hobby where you have to search out the doll and items for you. There are definitely not as many interested people in BJDs as there is, say something like cars. So that means it must not be mainstream. However, I like this hobby for what it is and the dolls are probably designed better because it is not mainstream. Of course, that also means they're more expensive!

 

I've noticed too that even though the other doll companies may not come out with resins, they do have vinyl BJDs. Off topic places like Goodreau and Ellowyne Wild and Kish and Effenbee (and as I said before Barbie). They are riding the ball joint market, offering vinyl alternatives. So, yeah... mainstream in the doll collector world. And the vinyl IS the cheaper substitute (case in point... compare the price of Goodreau Resin to Goodreau Vinyl for the exact same sculpt).

Sorry, I know they are off topic... but they do show that BJDs have become common in the doll collectors world.

 

I would say that it points to companies taking notice of abjds rather than these companies actually putting out actual abjds, though. Dolls with ball joints have been around forever -- it's the jointing system combined with the style and ease of customization that make abjds abjds. Goodreau comes closest to the real deal. The Barbies, Ellowyn Wild, Evangeline Ghastly (I think her name is?) and so on really are not abjds -- they're fashion dolls with greater articulation and that is all. It's not even really a vinyl vs resin thing so much as a style and purpose thing.

The fact that Western doll companies are taking note of abjds means that there is more awareness of them in the larger doll collecting world (which makes sense with them appearing in magazines and the like), but they don't seem to be truly willing to fully embrace or understand what an abjd actually is and put out their own. I'm not meaning this as a criticism -- they're companies who have their own thing going on and they seem to do it quite well, but you just can't call them the same kind of doll. The Western people who really put out true abjds so far are people creating artist dolls rather than the larger doll companies.

 

Cars are not cheap, rare coins are not cheap, there are many "common" hobbies that are expensive. I would also argue that in any kind of 'collection' that one always has to choose what they like most and what best suits them.

I still have to generally group the BJD hobby with doll collecting in general. And that is not at all uncommon.

 

Personally, I don't consider something mainstream until a lot of people who are not involved in a particular hobby (or in hobbies that might be related to it) know something about it. For example, I think watching anime is a mainstream hobby these days. People might look down on anime and the folks who like it, but plenty of people who have nothing to do with anime or related hobbies know what anime is. Anime is easy to find now -- geez, you can get some of the more popular series dubbed into English on the Cartoon Network, not to mention the shelves of it in places like FYE. Collecting dolls is definitely a mainstream hobby. But I think that collecting BJDs specifically isn't mainstream yet. It might be getting closer to mainstream and I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if it actually became mainstream someday, but unless the prices seriously go down I think it would be mainstream is the same that something like collecting cars is mainstream. Lots of people will know about it, more people might participate it in, but it's still not going to be as easy to access as, say, collecting Barbies (unless of course you're talking about something like those Bob Mackie Barbies, which aren't cheap either...).

 

it would be sad if collecting BJDs become a hobby. what i need are something with unique characters. not only it is a limited edition ect.

 

Goodreau's tagline is "American Ball Jointed Doll." No, you don't normally see them at your local craft store, but the market is flooded with their products. Clothing, shoes, accessories...

What other doll collectors have been noticing is that there seems to be a general decline of physical doll collector stores. In order to find or buy anything you either have to go online or to a doll show. The local craft stores used to carry more than just a few 18" doll clothes. They had wigs and eyes and joints and pates and those bead connector thingies and elastics... enough to put together a porcelain doll (yeah... the porcelain equivalent of a head cap is a pate). And there were several companies who had porcelain pieces you could customize and make a doll from. But that's all gone now. Just "ready made." But there USED TO BE whole sections in craft/hobby/fabric stores dedicated to doll making/customization.

It's not entirely true that there's nothing out there... La Sioux is still going strong as a doll making supplier. I'm just saying we used to have a lot more doll customization as a doll culture in America. But it slid into a "ready made" funk starting about a decade ago. Hopefully it bounces back into the joy of doll wigs and eyeballs like it was before. And people will want dolls to customize. Since the porcelain dolls have all disappeared... lets use resin and vinyl! Yay! I suspect the Western leaning will be towards vinyl instead of resin. In fact with Goodreau... you actually can't tell the difference unless you touch them. It looks the same, is assembled the same... just a different material.

 

Tagline aside, there is debate as to how they fit in with abjds stylistically, as that is part of what makes abjds different from other types of dolls. That's why I said they got the closest to the abjds in this hobby -- it is actually debatable rather than a simple 'that's just a fashion doll with ball joints' kind of answer. But my point was that simply having ball joints doesn't make a doll an Asian styled ball jointed doll.

I know that people customize all kinds of dolls -- it's the fact that bjds are made specifically for that purpose from the very outset, that make them different from a lot of dolls currently on the market. Of course you also have Sybarites who are ball jointed, resin, strung, and use wigs, but they're stylistically very different and are made with the intention of being fashion dolls, so again, it's not the same thing.

I have no problem with vinyl, personally. I have an obitsu, and obitsu hybrid and like them very much. However, what the West leans towards in material doesn't necessarily have much to do with the abjd hobby, if the dolls they're making are stylistically very different. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make -- there is a variety of different kinds of dolls out there, and I'm seeing some abjd influence in places, but they're still a small subset of the greater doll collecting world, which to me doesn't make them specifically mainstream. And while other doll collectors maybe more aware of them, I'm not seeing Western companies putting out true abjds -- or anything close for that matter (except maybe Goodreau).

If you lump bjds in the general 'doll' category, you could make a case for being mainstream. However, the abjd hobby strikes me as being pretty different from other forms of doll collecting, so I'm doubtful that it would be an accurate thing to do. What makes abjds abjds is the sum of the parts -- made to be customized, the style of the sculpting, and the ball and socket joint system all together make them pretty different (and that's leaving materials out of the equation). And then you have the hobby itself which does have its own culture and set of expectations. You get dolls created by Western companies that will have some overlap here and there with abjds -- maybe it's the jointing system, or perhaps they are easier to customize, but they don't have all of those things together in one doll. I'm just not seeing abjds as being that pervasive in the doll collecting world at large.

 

But the OPs question wasn't about ABJDs specifically. She asked about BJDs. You're talking about ABJDs. I'm talking about BJDs. Encouraged by ABJD success, I'm sure American companies will venture into the BJD market, just as Goodreau has. It seems they have already taken the first step by rethinking joint possibilities. Dolls are being designed to be less stiff and more pose-able. Barbie has gone from 5-8 joints (head, shoulders, hips, knees, waist) to adding elbows and wrists. Where Barbie goes others will soon follow and try to solve their joint issue as more people ask for pose-ability. You can bet they will continue down the BJD path.

And honestly... I never really understood what "asian aesthetic" is supposed to be. I grew up with the cheap Japanese cartoons era (voltron, last unicorn). I'm guessing "Western" is supposed to be "ultra realistic" or "baby doll" but I just don't see them all lumped in those two categories. There's plenty of Western "pointy chin/big eyes" that some people seem to define as ABJD. And then there's companies like NotDoll Lab and Minimee that blur those lines. Personally, I think the line is artificial to begin with. DoA may create a hard line (this is and this isn't)... but that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to see it that way.

And Goodreau IS an American Ball Jointed Doll company. They make Ball Jointed Dolls and they are based in America. That's what they are. There's nothing to distinguish them from any other BJD out there, except they were made in America. And we're a ethnic melting pot so why the heck not? Does it really matter if the sculptor comes from China or Germany to label it? Can only French people make French Resin dolls? Global world... global ideas.

It's like saying ONLY Westerners can do Goth... Real Goth. Neo-gothic, Visigoths because that's part of our aesthetic culture to have gargoyles and flying buttresses and the East just can't do Gothic like the West can. So any ABJD wearing full black can't be Gothic... can't even be Neo-Gothic because that's a Western aesthetic based on the Visigoths who were eastern Germanic. Sounds silly, doesn't it?

 

BJD companies have multiplied over the past few years. As a result, more dolls are available to more people in a variety of styles, price ranges and materials such as porcelain, resin and plastic. The DOA forum has thousands of members. Formerly shops specializing in artist dolls carry BJD items and even doll artists created their own version of BJDs to better appeal to a larger customer base. [/QUOTE]

I actually think it's good that there are more companies out there just so there's a variety of options open to those that become interested in the hobby. Not everyone can afford a $600+ SD BJD...

Would you consider collecting BJDs a mainstream versus unique kind of hobby? Why or why not? [/QUOTE]

I don't think it's mainstream at all, most people I speak to don't even know what a BJD is. It might not seem as unique when you're amongst BJD owners because we all own BJDs but to people that don't know anything about the hobby, it still seems unique to them. So it all depends on what perspective you're looking at it from.

 

Actually, the OP is discussing this particular hobby which is abjds -- people around here often just say bjd as shorthand, but this hobby here, is about abjds not just dolls with ball joints. When abjd people use the term bjd they are usually referring to abjds. I do it too at times, though I'm trying not to in this debate as I don't want to create confusion.

**ETA** I reread the original post, and I can see where you came to that conclusion. I think it's pretty clear the specific question relates to abjds, as she is referring to this hobby rather than general doll collecting. However some of the examples she used seem to suggest off topic dolls.

It's often the shape and facial proportions. Minimees are grandfathered in -- they aren't technically abjd style. Asian aesthetic is more than huge eyes and a pointy chin. Obviously there is room for a gray area, and some sculpts blur lines -- not all abjd hobby groups will interpret things the same way. However, there are dolls that clearly do not fall under the abjd umbrella -- the ones with clear fashion doll look and purpose, and those whose look more closely resembles porcelain dolls, etc. That's not a slap against those types of dolls -- it's just that they are different looking and are made with a different consumer and purpose in mind. Even though boundaries are not always easy to set, some are needed otherwise what the hobby is gets terribly confused.

I never said they didn't make bjds -- it's obvious that they do. It's whether those dolls fall under the title of abjd that's up for debate. The reason why they get very mixed reviews among abjd enthusiasts is because stylistically, they are closer to Western type dolls. The person she hired to do the sculpting on the first dolls at least (I don't know if the same person sculpted the later ones) was someone with no knowledge of abjds. This doesn't mean they aren't great dolls, or that there are no similarities. They are the closest to actual abjds of the dolls that you used as examples which is why some people lump them in with abjds and some people don't. However, it is not as clear cut as saying 'well they have ball joints and that's all that matters.' Dolls have been made with ball joints for centuries, but they aren't necessarily part of this hobby. For the record, I don't feel strongly one way or another as to whether they should qualify as abjds or not. I can see both sides of that argument -- especially when you look at some of the Goodreaus with custom faceups and more flattering wigs. However, I would not say that they are a clear example of what an abjd is, because they really do walk a line in that regard.

Nonsense! That's not what I said at all. Just because US doll companies haven't put out what would normally be considered an abjd, doesn't mean they can't. It means that they don't choose to, that's all. If they took the time to research what abjds are about and they style, then there is no reason why a US company couldn't develop one. And I did say there were Western examples of abjds, but they tend to fall more under the artist doll category and came out of the abjd community rather than a more general doll company suddenly deciding to create a true abjd.

 

To me collecting BJDs is just another aspect of collecting dolls which is actually the second highest collected item behind stamps & coins. (Don't know why those two are lumped together, but if they weren't doll collecting would be number one.) Those statistics alone show that doll collecting in general is quite mainstream & BJDs are rapidly becoming a larger & larger part of doll collecting. Even staid, old UFDC now has categories at their convention competition for BJDs. And every doll club that I've done a BJD program for has resulted with one or more converts.

We may think we're unique because of our customization & ways of playing with our dolls but everything we do is echoed by other types of doll collectors. For instant customization of fashion dolls & reborns was in vogue before the first BJDs ever arrived on the scene. Also people have been naming their dolls, creating characters, setting up scenes & photographing them for ages. Heck, I did all that even when I collected only antique dolls.

While BJDs may not be mainstream in the sense that everyone knows about them, they're hardly unique. They are a rapidly growing part of a larger hobby scene and now with some less expensive but still high quality companies entering the market I expect them to get even more popular. Sure, they'll always be people at large & even folks within doll collecting who'll find our dolls a little weird but then I still find some other sorts of dolls just as strange & I've been collecting a number of different types of dolls for over 20 years. Not every type of doll is going to appeal to each collector & for that I'm grateful. Could you just imagine the horror that acquiring these dolls would be if every collector wanted them?

As for price being a limiting factor well, even though specials can run into the thousands, that's nothing compared to most antique dolls & OOAK artist pieces. Even companies like Zwergnase & the now defunct Himstedt offer dolls that run well over the price of your average BJD.

So no, I don't find BJDs to be unique, simply a part of a much larger collecting hobby. Even here in my little neck of the world our monthly meet-ups have more people in attendance that any of the "regular" doll clubs around.

 

Word. Seriously, everything you said. It's just another niche in a big, big, mainstream hobby - and no, random person on the street may not know what a bjd is, but then it's unlikely they know what a Maxie or a Jan McLean doll is, or a certain type of stamp. BJd fandom in general is really no different to other doll fandoms I've been involved in, unless the insistence that it's all special and unique and snowflakey is in itself a difference.

As for the "distinct Asian aesthetic" thing - well, I take that with a big heaping spoonful of salt, especially as there are dolls allowed in that are far more like oversize Western fashion dolls than dolls that are not, and I find the thought of a group of mostly Western women gravely deciding what qualifies as an "Asian aesthetic" and ruling out actual Asian dolls as "not Asian enough" deeply problematic and I am really not comfortable with the way it's handled. I'd much prefer clear, objective criteria rather than Westerners imposing an arguably Orientalist idea of what's sufficiently "Asian" onto Asian products. In any case, I don't think arguing semantics takes away from Leloi's point, which is that there is large and growing awareness of this particular niche of doll collecting within the wider hobby.