Would you consider collecting BJDs a mainstream versus unique kind of hobby?

I think the biggest mistake anyone can make when it comes to deciding whether or not to enter a hobby is to think, what will others think of me. This is not a mainstream hobby, and it never will be. Doll collectors are viewed as weird by 'outsiders'. It is for that reason that although there are thousands of people on this website from all over the world. The millions of people in one collectors country alone, out weighs the few. The market will keep getting bigger because not only are more people discovering the hobby, but peoples collections are getting larger and more discerning. But it's more like a trick of the light, because it's still a minority hobby. It will never be... monopoly for example. Something most homes have.

 

But being niche in itself suggests non mainstream I would think. Though it would depend on how much you lump it in with doll collecting in general. I tend not to -- not because of anything against other types of dolls (if anything, I like dolls in general more now after having bjds and have a few other doll types at this point), but because I see differences between these dolls/this hobby and other forms of doll collecting. Likewise I see collecting Fashion Dolls as being different from Reborns, or Blythes, or OOAK artist dolls. That doesn't mean that people here are always only into abjds or there is no overlap, but when you take everything as a whole and compare it... this hobby does have a different feel to it, different norms, a different focus. And if you say 'I collect fashion dolls' or 'I collect porcelain dolls' the average Joe on the street will most likely have some idea of what you're talking about, and other doll people definitely will. That doesn't mean they can necessarily name specific dolls of those types anymore than average Joe would know what an 'El' was, but they would be more aware of the type unlike abjds.

I think you bring up something kind of interesting until you accused the community of being 'Orientalist' -- 'Asian Aesthetic' just refers to the style of this doll -- not how ethnic they look, not even really where they come from. It's the style that tends to make them look different. You make this sound almost like a racial issue, and I don't get that at all. This has nothing to do with 'Westerners' imposing anything, as the community is spread out all over the world and the distinction is not an artificial one -- different communities may have a slightly looser or tighter definition, but there's still a sense that these dolls are for the most part stylistically different, and it's a style that stems from doll companies in Asia (hence the term 'Asian Aesthetic'). It's normal for things of this nature to be categorized in someway which creates the need for criteria. I don't know how style could be omitted from that.

However, yes, there have been some dolls that definitely blur lines. Now some of the ABJD Fashion Dolls were marketed specifically as fashion dolls (think Dollmore) which also, I believe, probably has some bearing on them being declared off topic as this was never a fashion doll forum, while on the other hand the Chic Line dolls were always marketed as abjds and are on topic.

But, what I wonder to myself is that if a lot of companies suddenly switched gears stylistically, should they be declared OT? Or does the definition of Asian Aesthetic in itself have to change? What would the tipping point be? I'm not entirely sure of the answer. Right now it's a few dolls here and there -- a few of which I'm surprised are on topic, a few I can understand being on-topic. It's definitely not black and white, which I know creates confusion. However, criteria is part of what identifies the hobby and type of doll that is being dealt with. I imagine if the criteria was too iron clad, there would be little room for natural changes in style that companies make over time, yet there needs to be a line somewhere. I admit, I've never understood the hostility towards the idea of aesthetic differences as criteria, as it makes sense and I've always found abjds in general (there is always an exception here or there) to look quite distinct. In fact, it was that distinction that drew me to them in the first place.

I also agree that there is a growing awareness among the doll world in general, but I don't know that that immediately confers mainstream status. I think this hobby has a ways to go before that happens, if it ever does.

 

Because I still consider myself a BJD noob (only been here a couple of months and still waiting on my first doll) I need to ask for the definition of "Asian Aesthetic". Because, the BJD brand I like most, the dolls don't seem to necessarily look "Asian" to me. Yes, I mean like Asian people because I don't know what else is being talked about in reference to the term "Asian Aesthetic".

Enlighten me?

 

It's not that they look like realistically Asian people (a lot of abjds are pretty ethnically generic). It's that most of the dolls from the on-topic abjd companies don't look like Western designed dolls. The facial features, proportions, and face shape tend to be different -- even though there is a lot of variety amongst abjd companies, there is still a common thread. Here's a link to a thread that discusses this in detail -- it will probably be helpful: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?222544-What-makes-Asian-esthetics.

Though there are always some exceptions, I notice that a lot of Western styled dolls tend to have a more oblong face shape, be more angular -- even a little harder looking (excepting the more pudgy child like dolls). The features aren't placed quite the same. The easiest way to see it is to take a sampling of abjd pics and compare them to a sampling of Western dolls. There are some dolls that do make things a little harder, because they walk a line in between and are less distinctly one or the other, though I don't believe those to be any where near a majority of sculpts.

 

Taco - Thank you. Reading the thread you linked to has helped my understanding of the term immensely. It was a very interesting read as well.

 

And see, I don't find that to be the case at all. Sure, if you're talking western play dolls those do have a somewhat different aesthetic but when you get into artist pieces you'll find that the proportions & features of BJDs aren't all that different. In fact one of the things that appeals to me about these dolls is their resemblance to both antique & modern character dolls. And even the more stylised dolls remind me a lot of some antique dolls.

It really makes sense that many ABJDs have a look similar to western artist dolls since both are designed & often produced by individual artists rather than mass produced by large companies. Both the Asian & western artists are challenging themselves & continually evolving in their sculptures. Take Rainman for instance. His early dolls were rather stylised & somewhat simplistic in their sculpture while his current work is much more detailed & realistic. It's the nature of artists to change stylistically as their talent & abilities grow. While the earlier, anime based designs had a more distinctively Asian look to them, the current crop of BJDs are design-wise a long way from that & personally, I don't find a distinctive "Asian aesthetic" to them, which considering that most Asian companies are now playing to a predominantly western market isn't at all unexpected.

 

I don't think it's mainstream at all. If you walked up to a random person and asked if they knew what a BJD was, they most likely wouldn't know. Do the same thing but ask if they knew what a Barbie was, then they'd know. Which shows a Barbie is a more mainstream type of doll, while BJD's are not.

 

I wasn't thinking of play dolls, actually, but dolls that are geared towards collectors.

I do have a pretty major quibble with the above -- since when has being more realistic become equated with improvement in skill/talent? Coming up with a great sculpt that appeals to people is no mean feat whether the dolls is stylized or realistic. Realistic does not = better, it's just different -- some people prefer it, some don't. I personally prefer the earlier Elf Doll sculpts hands down, and don't view some of the new stuff as an improvement *shrug*. Yes, it's very true that people's styles often do change somewhat over time, and I'm pretty sure that's why 'Asian Aesthetic' is left somewhat vague so that can be accommodated.

Anyway, mini rant aside, I do see a difference. Sometimes it's a matter of degree, but it's still there -- even in the more realistic dolls. I'm not sure what else to say about that. Between looking at abjds and non-abjds, it seems to me that abjds are their own thing -- that's not surprising, really as they began in a different place catering to a different market. I know I can't be the only one that sees it, or else abjd boards would all be open to all dolls with ball joints. If there was no difference then I would've either gotten into dolls a lot longer time ago, or wouldn't have been attracted to abjds at all, depending on how you look at it. There's a definite grouping of hobbyists (myself included) that were never into dolls prior to abjds -- if abjds were pretty much the same as any other doll out there, and the hobby the same as any other doll collecting group (when it comes to whether the hobby is mainstream or not, I would also include the abjd community in that assessment as well as the dolls), then what would have been the draw? What was it that drug all those nondoll folks into dolldom?

I also wouldn't make the assumption that we're the primary market for doll companies in Asia -- in many cases we're their secondary market -- one that's gotten bigger and is very worth tapping into, but for most, their primary markets usually consist of hobbyists in their own countries.

Obviously there's a difference in perception when it comes to this topic, which may never change. But I know for me, the things that make the hobby and dolls different, are the very things that drew me to it -- not because it has to be small and niche to be 'cool' (I could care less about that), but because this hobby genuinely offered something in terms of dolls that I wasn't seeing in other doll types. Even with some of the stylistic changes that some of the companies have gone through, I still find that this holds true.

 

Absolutely not. Finding a niche in a collecting hobby is part and parcel of belonging to it - the longer you belong, the more likely you are to find a more and more specialised niche (or groups of niches), because there are very few collecting hobbies in which you can collect everything. In fact, guides to collecting warn you to narrow down and specialise sooner rather than later. People outside the hobby may not be able to identify a particular niche, but it doesn't change the fact that it's just a corner of something pretty mainstream. I really can't see bjd collecting as being unique - it's part of a huge hobby, and people in it do exactly what people in every other corner of the hobby do in terms of investment, photography, customisation, play and so on. It's just... not that different, you know? And to agree it was unique, I'd have to see something actually different and unique, and no one has yet offered any convincing examples, just said that not everyone knows what "bjd"
means.

I think maybe you don't understand what I mean by Orientalist - it has nothing to do with physical "racial" features, but everything to do with Western people making up an idea in their head of what Asianness is, and projecting it back as Asian reality. For a group of Westerners to look at something designed by Asian people, made by Asian people, and sold to Asian people, and say "We have decided that your product is not Asian enough, it doesn't have what we have decided is the 'aesthetic' that belongs to 'you people'" - well, it would be difficult to find a more blatant example of Orientalism. That a group of Western people have decided they can decide what's "Asian enough" in the art of Asian people obviously does have a racial aspect, although not quite, I think, in the sense that you thought I meant.

If you're arguing that DoA isn't run on Western principles, then I respectfully and very strongly disagree with you and assert that my experience has been very much otherwise. The presence of hobbyists from different cultures doesn't change the social and cultural structure of the forums.

"Resin ball-jointed dolls designed and produced in Asia." I find the construction of Asia to mean "Japan, Korea, Singapore and China" while erasing countries like India and Pakistan, problematic enough to go on with. Why not use actual stylistic criteria instead - eye size, face shape, whatever? If there is actually a criteria of style, it should be possible to elaborate it without resorting to something like that.

I'd find it far less uncomfortable if it was criteria involving anything other than sitting there going "we've decided what Asianness ("Asian aesthetic") is and that's what we're measuring things against, regardless of whether things are actually Asian or not."

 

I think you misunderstood me when I mentioned realism. As you stated, realistic doesn't always mean better but in Rainman's case it's definitely showing an improvement in his sculpture. While his earlier sculpts are indeed beautiful his sculpting has improved to the point that he now can do much more detailed work. Having done some sculpting myself, I can tell you it's fairly easy to do a slightly stylised sculpt as opposed to capturing a lot of detail & expression.

And I agree this hobby offers something different in the way of dolls. To me these dolls combine everything I like about dolls in general into one package but I have to admit that if there were other dolls that were as posable, customisable & beautifully, thoughtfully sculpted I'd be buying those as well.

As far as markets go, you merely have to look at the populace. Even if everyone in Japan & Korea collected these dolls it couldn't hold a candle to the masses of western collectors. Any company will play to their widest market so I feel fairly safe in saying that ABJDs are now being aimed more towards the western collectors & in many cases, more towards former fashion doll collectors than to a mainly Asian market. Just look at all the "fashion doll" types being offered these days (And yes I know that some of them are considered "off topic" here yet others are not. Where exactly is the "Asian aesthetic" there?

And as for dragging non-doll people into ABJDs, it's basically the same thing that drags non-doll people into any part of the hobby. For instance I had absolutely no interest in dolls even as a child until I found antique dolls. There was something about those faces that spoke to me in a way no doll ever had before. Another lady I know never collected dolls until she was exposed to Himstedts. Those spoke to her in a special way that's similar to how these dolls speak to us. Not all people in the general doll collecting community were dolly people from birth. They simply were exposed to something that reverberated to something inside them, just as these dolls often speak to fans of anime. There's a similarity there to their other interests that draw them in.

And yes, there's always going to be a difference in perception as far as these dolls go. I'm merely speaking from my own experiences in both the ABJD community & in the doll community at large.

 

I agree with the others that say how this isn't really mainstream. I only heard of dolls like these because someone else told me about it. I'd never seen people with them previously, or sold in a shop. It's not something everyone has heard of - or at least these types. ones like barbie dolls and the porcelin decorative dolls people know of, but not dollfies. i'd agree that this is more of a niche hobby.

 

I think there is a lot to cover on this subject. I used to be very into the Pullip culture. I got so used to having all of these accepted rules and truths about care and customizing and mechanics. That I could be asked virtually any question about a pullip doll and be confident I would know the answer was such a luxury. Coming into the BJD community, it is ENTIRELY different. There are all of these conflicting opinions on what materials are best, what is usable, what is the best method to care for your doll, how to store them, EVERYTHING! Why, today I found a thread claiming it is perfectly safe and reasonable to use nail polish as a lip gloss on a bjd face-up. I thought nail polish was a no-no for all plastic-based materials! It seems to me that there are so many different varieties of dolls, makers of dolls, and collectors of dolls that there is no way to establish any sort of "truth" about BJDs. I do wish that it were more specialized, as it is almost impossible to find an answer to any specific question I have due to the massive amounts of content on this forum. I'm finding that collecting BJDs is a much more independent hobby. I have to experiment personally to find the things I want to know. I don't know of people to compare specific notes with because there are so many people going in so many different directions.

My Conclusion: Ball Joint Doll collecting is sprawling within itself, making it impossible to pin down, and thus too diversified to be mainstream.

 

It's definitely not a mainstream hobby....it's not like I can stroll into Walmart and find a resin bjd next to Barbie. Very, very few people have heard of or even seen a doll like this in my area. Maybe it is a little more mainstream in places with a really strong doll culture or something like that. Over all, it is not mainstream, imho.

 

It seems to me that many people do not really seek out a hobby, the hobby finds them. At least that's what happened in my case. I don't know why I love these dolls. To my intellect it makes no sense at all and I am always asking myself "Why do I need these dolls so much?" After aslomh the question for years I still don't have an answer. It seems that the reason(s) is(are) purely emotional and unconscious. I love them so much I find some time everyday just to play dollies.

 

I have to admit, I've thought about this particular issue a good deal. It's just painfully awkward to bring up in any context that doesn't sound needlessly combative, or like an assault on the rules of the board somehow. It's something that actually makes me a little uncomfortable, even if I'd write them the same way on this issue for the same reason the mods have stated -- there's already so many dolls to discuss and so many variations that without some kind of boundaries, it would quickly spiral out of control. I think the thing to remember about that, specifically, is that it's about keeping the focus of the board intact and not a statement about the dolls or their quality or the people that make them to be extended across the whole of the hobby. I don't take it as a statement about the dolls or the hobby, but just about the conversations on the forum and what they should entail, and in that sense it isn't much different from saying 'no content above pg-13'/etc. That said, it's the one genuinely subjective criteria, which is going to leave it open to a lot more scrutiny than some others, which makes it a double whammy. (This is me seriously not envying the mods here on this issue, and I voluntarily took a mod job on an abortion debate community on livejournal of all places without a flinch -- this subject I find more volatile on some level.)

Basically, I have no issue with it on the board, but the more generalized issue really is of some concern to me. It's one I'd love to see a full debate thread about some day, but fear it would perhaps be a little too hurtful or volatile even if discussed with the utmost civility.

 

I would consider it occult more then anything, a clique that stays strong and grows but hasn't gotten large. (that is, in america, its much more common in Asia I would imagine.)

 

Would you consider collecting BJDs a mainstream versus unique kind of hobby? Why or why not?
I don't personally find it mainstream or unique. It's a very niche market hobby if anything.
Yes new companies are popping up with time, new sculpts are ever flowing...But you have to remember there aren't a lot of cheap dolls by most people standards(outside of the doll hobby people). If you go to walmart and buy a bratz or barbie, and then see the sticker price of a BJD it can be enough to shock a lot of people away from the hobby entirely(in the sense of owning one, a lot of people do simply admire other peoples dolls).
I remember showing my mom the next 2 dolls i wanted to buy and she almost choked on her coffee when she saw the price of them.

I think BJD's will grow in popularity, but i don't see it ever becoming mainstream, it's too much of a niche market to appeal to and too expensive to really survive outside that niche.
Just my opinion :P

 

While I wouldn't consider it a mainstream hobby, I do think it is becoming more prevalent.
In Asian countries it might be considered more mainstream but in America their limited availability and cost keep them secluded to a certain niche. Or, at least that's how I see it.

 

I think it's a bit more mainstream than people realize. True we can't just walk into walmart or toys r us to buy a doll. But at the same time the ladies at the craft store knows what my bjd are and how they work.

 

I've always looked at collecting bjds more as a unique hobby than a mainstream hobby, just because I haven't met many in real life who have even heard of a ball jointed doll.