Your opinions about hypersexualized dolls or items in DP or other Doll Exhibitions

Ah, okay. Sorry for the slight confusion then; to be honest I kind of got lost in my own thoughts because this thread has taken a few interesting turns, haha (:
Yeah, I can't find a good word to describe it; everything seems too harsh to me. Wait, bully on the subject of thinking it's perverted, or bullying on the subject of calling it/someone perverted? [I've considered most of this thread to be a heated debate, because it's definitely slightly controversial with very differing opinions, and intense clarification.]

 

lavandula is citing bondage and fetish clothing as examples. It sounds like she doesn't want to see dolls who aren't wearing enough of the correct type of clothes in public. Taken to an extreme, ankles do become scandalous.

That's nothing like dolls posed to be having kinky resin (or vinyl, in the case of Dollfie Dream dolls) sex in the middle of an event, is it? In general, we hobbyists don't have clothing-related issues, or even optional-part issues because those who don't like it can choose not to look or buy those items. It's normally posing that causes NSFW flags on posts around here.

 

It is good that you have apologised, and I hope they will be more open to a discussion about the subject.

 

Karla, they are open for discussion :p
It's just the way Lavandula said it caused all the anger... in both Chinese and English, she does need to consider more carefully about her words and attitude

 

I think lavandula was bullied because people on the Hong Kong doll forum thought that she was generalising all people who own Dollfie Dreams dress them up explicitly, and they took offence to that.

They may have thought that she was addressing everyone who owns DDs? I'm not very clear on that but its somewhere along those lines.

@ HikaruMuraki: You speak Chinese? That's awesome!

 

I know in general people tend to be open for discussion. However people are less likely to be after the approach Lavandula first went with, since people can be wary. I do agree that Lavandula does need to be more careful with words and approach from what i saw at the start of the thread.

 

For some reason I thought you were talking about here on this thread; I need to wake up more.
But either way, they should have just asked for clarification. If only more people were more accepting of the fact that someone isn't attempting to bad-mouth, or generalize something, maybe it would be a little easier for everyone to accept everyone has an opinion, and it may or may not agree with their own personal beliefs.

 

Just because I could speak/read/write Chinese, I could say, really, from the original Hong Kong forum post... Lavandula's attitude is not the same as here ^^; (personally think even a bit arrogant in the tone although that might not be her intent...)
Therefore the reaction given to her at that forum...

Anyway, she apologized, just hope she has learnt something from this.
Chamillia: Yep Cantonese and Mandarin too!

 

That's really sad that people would bully you if you're not quite familiar to a language you're not native with. I mean, they should be able to give you a little bit of slack, and just ask for clarification [I think I said that earlier so sorry for sounding repetitive]
It is good you apologized, especially since I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. (:

 

But don't forget, no one on that forum knew she was not native, and perhaps wasn't using her words correctly/wisely
It's also not fair to say that they should have asked since she was on a forum mainly for people in Hong Kong and using Chinese (in which her replies didn't sound non-native)
Again... from reading the original posts... the replying attitudes on that forum was more like what happened here earlier in this thread... so I wouldn't really consider that as bullying... (ok, Lavandula might think differently...), just that the way she replied caused people to escalate quickly...

 

I guess I'm just so used to the American way of doing things, but the idea that those items wouldn't have a separate section is really shocking to me. I'd have to see it myself to believe it.

Personally I don't consider items like bondage equipment to be perverted but I do consider it very adult. Those items are very hard to explain to young ones without it becoming confusing for them. Then again considering how expensive dolls are it really is more of an adult hobby so maybe it's not an issue?

Overall it just seems strange to me that those items wouldn't have their own special section.

 

I guess because items like those are rarely displayed or sold at such events even though there is, it would just be the odd one, therefore not even worth having their own section. I've been to a few HKDP myself, but have not come across many explicit items like those.

 

* Standard internet etiquette: Be careful of your wording. If you are unsure of your use of the language--state that up front. Do not get defensive. Do not just jump on another person without making sure of their true meaning and intent first. Do not think people are bullying you if you started up the misunderstanding: Just try and correct the mistake.

I think the OP started out trying to be careful, but did not succeed. It's good that people here tried to figure out what was meant by the posts before getting upset. This is a fairly reasonable forum, I think, although some people still will feel hurt or upset (which can't be helped).

The problem of what is acceptable (or not) to various people is a difficult one because there is no easy line of demarcation. If we cater to every single person, then it's possible that nothing could be shown as someone could possibly find fault in it. So it's mostly left to majority opinion, and hopefully erring on the side of greater freedom and less censorship, as the person who might be offended really can just avert their eyes.

If enough people feel that there should be separate areas, then that could always be done. (I don't think we should just use the "18+" designation as that could be unfair to people who are younger and not feeling offended by some certain things). I think there should be a choice of whether to see things. But having a more adult/mature/nsfw/sexual themes/whatever section is fair enough.

How to determine what should be in such a section or not would be VERY problematic, however. But some vendors might automatically want to be there (most don't want to worry about offending others, either, and DO want to freely show their items to those who are interested) so it's a win-win for everyone. When it comes to making rules and regulations--that's where the problems will come up. So: voluntary participation. I've seen this work before.

BUT, if it's only the OP that is having a problem and the majority is not, then they will have to be content with just not looking. The world is full of visions that individuals won't want to look at... but unless there's a consensus to have certain things not shown, it's up to us to deal with it and not go places where we will see things we don't want to see.

Speaking up, (in a carefully worded way), is good, though. The OP might find others who agree with them and maybe they can form their own group so they can share photos and discuss things in an environment more friendly to their interests. And perhaps more people will think about whether this is an issue that perhaps needs some attention... or not.

Personally, I'm not into DDs, so I have no idea what goes on there. DoA is very "All Ages Safe" and people who like posting more controversial things usually do so elsewhere. So I don't come across things--pretty much ever--that I think need segregating.

Of course, I feel very strongly that naked dolls are NOT something that needs any warning at all. They are dolls! Even if they are posed in certain ways, they can't actually do anything sexual (being dolls and resin and all that). I think people who freak at a naked doll are odd. What do they do when they change their dolls clothes??? And really, why is everything sexualized when it doesn't have to be? Seeing humans having sex... That has it's place and I can see that it isn't good to come across it just going through everyday life, but dolls...? Seems silly to me. But see, that's not how everyone thinks. So we all just need to try and give each other some slack and try and deal by not dictating terms, but understanding each other and working with it.

 

-Grumpy reply-

 

I've not personally been to a HK Dollism, but I have been to Dolpas and various doll shows in Japan and shopped there. Explicit BL manga is shelved on the girl's floor of Animate along with all of the other shoujo manga, there is no separation of gen and adult doujinshi at doujinshi shows, and Gentaro Araki definitely had some of his futanari and inflation dolls on display at the one doll show he was at that I attended, along with Unoas. The attitude there is a lot more blase about it.

I personally feel if the vendor is not violating any rules with their display, then they should be left alone. If someone doesn't like their wares or display, they simply don't have to buy it or look at it.

 

While it's certainly not a "no children allowed" type hobby, this one is definitely geared more toward adults, and what's available (and visible) definitely reflects that. Even in the cases when there are younger individuals involved, generally they would need to have a greater relative maturity in order to save up for (or demonstrate responsibility for) an expensive doll and properly care for it.

Now, I can't speak culturally for whether anything should be "hidden" at an event in Hong Kong (I've never been there and have no real familiarity with what the cultural standards might be). However, I can speak for what's appropriate for this hobby in general. And, as a hobby targeted toward adults, I see absolutely nothing wrong with items that cater toward the intended audience.

The comparison that came to mind for me while reading through this thread was that of a convention I attended a few years back, not long after I got started in the hobby. The convention, while not designated "adults only," had a largely adult attendee base, and the events taking place reflected this strongly. While this was less of a consequence of the actual target of the convention, and more a result of other factors, it still showed that the event catered to the people who were there. That said, there were also young people present, and this being an event in the United States, ID was required at several events. But they were appropriately described in the panel listings, and anyone in the main attendee pool was allowed to attend--or to "avert their eyes," so to speak. Similar to the case of dolls on display, where seeing them briefly and knowing they're there would be much like seeing the panel title and knowing it's taking place, versus actually becoming actively engaged with it, these things could be avoided, without being "hidden away" like "something shameful."

Because they're not shameful. There's no strict line between art and porn, there's no shame in dressing a doll in lingerie or posing it provocatively, there's no shame in "optional parts," and there's no shame in enjoying the hobby in the way you want to enjoy it. While it's acceptable to not want to look at these kinds of things, it's not acceptable to tell others how they can participate in the hobby, or that they way they're doing it is wrong. It doesn't matter whether that's through "perverted things," or through amateur faceups and sock dresses, it's not okay. We all need to respect each other here; calling people things like "perverts" or "prudes" are both unacceptable.

Thus, my opinion on these items at doll exhibitions? Vendors and exhibitors are within their rights to display and sell these items. While local and cultural standards should be kept in mind as well, as they can often have legal repercussions, there's no reason to refuse these types of displays. And if someone doesn't care for them, they need to choose their words carefully, and remember to respect those who might be responsible for the display, and those who might enjoy it.

(And as an aside on the topic of nudes in the museum, I've seen some things displayed in museums that would certainly be off-limits to this forum. Like I said above, the line between art and porn is not as defined as some may wish to believe.)

 

Lavandula it may be a language problem but it is not at all polite to state that other people are perverted because of the way they choose to dress or pose their dolls. They are their dolls after all and you have no say in how they use them just as no one else can tell you what to do with your dolls. Just because you do not like something does not mean it is wrong. Would you go up to someone in the street and chastise them for their choice of clothing? You also state that you have higher morals than others which really just your opinion and can be seen as quite offensive. It is like saying that you are better than someone else. You are merely more conservative about sexual expression than others. It does not give you the moral high-ground. You do not have the ultimate say in what is right or wrong. There are always going to be things you do not agree with but you have to learn to accept that other people make their choices as you make yours and if you do not like their choice that is fine but you have no right to force your beliefs onto them. As others have said there are many examples of art that you would probably find offensive as well and what are the galleries of the world meant to do hide anything that may offend you? There are much worse things out there than someone showing their doll in lingerie or leather etc.... Do not think I am not mocking you as you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. Try to be less judgmental of others and just say "Hey I don't like that but I accept others do." Then just move on to what you do enjoy.