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Ball- jointed Dolls in Arabic Countries

Jul 16, 2010

    1. All I'd like to do is remind people of some of the horror stories we've already heard on DOA from young people / people in a relationship /people dealing with neighbors, townsfolk and extended families here in the US/Europe and other countries that provide and allow for far more options, choices and varying points-of-view than some other cultures out there. Just saying "I believe people have free will to choose what they perceive as negative, and are not merely mindless products of their environment" really is ignoring the enormous pressures put on people (particularly children, adolescents and women) by their culture that can directly affect their lives, health, or ability to earn a living.

      For example, if you're a woman taught since childhood that your eventual sole destiny will be to become secondary to your husband and family, or if any stranger on the street has the right to comment or harrass you for how you're dressed, or that your role in the culture is quite specific and constrained -- even if you have managed to find and maintain an online outlet for your own individuality, and have money to call your own, you're still far less likely to be bold enough to try and get a naked, anatomically representative doll through your country's customs and delivered to your door without anyone else noticing -- perhaps, particularly not your own family.

      Of course, not all cultures are the extreme in repression. But most of any population does tend to be "mainstream" to whatever their culture and social bonds decree.

      I was wondering about these kind of cultural demographics recently, since I couldn't recall seeing anyone on DOA from India itself or most of mainland Asia (excluding China and Thailand).
       
    2. When I say "your environment", I mean ALL of it, not just where you live right now. So since you've been to a lot of places, (including on the Internet,) you've experienced many environments and are able to draw on all of them as reference points. Personality is the other factor. But just personality alone has pretty much NO perspective without environment.

      (And yeah, that Fulla doll has a cute face. XD )
       
    3. What we need to be careful of in this discussion is what we label "repression". Maybe from one viewpoint it looks like repression, but within these cultures mentioned certain "restrictions" are considered common decency.
      However, we don't actually know how hard it is to get or keep a BJD in the countries talked about until people from some of those countries give us firsthand accounts of their BJD ownership experiences. So far we've had a comment from one person, I'd like to see more.
       
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    4. Er . . . I'm American, but my dad is from Lebanon, and first I'd just like to point out that there are probably as many Catholics there as Muslims. Second, if you go to Beirut, the capital, they have Starbucks and everything. I wouldn't be surprised if some people there had BJD's.

      Third, I am glad to see some truly open-minded Americans sticking up for traditional culture. It's easy to point at Muslim countries and say, "Women there have to cover, they're so oppressed!" But can you see the shortcomings in your own culture? Modern Western culture breeds atomization and deracination, which are just as pervasive in a woman's life as what she wears every day. If that's what you prefer, then great, America is for you. But don't try to pass judgment on everyone else. Secularism and capitalism are not the be-all-end-all of the world, they are only options, and not even the best ones if you ask me.
       
    5. Moderator Note: I'm going to move this over to Dollie Debate, with a reminder to everyone participating:

      Please remember that you are discussing a real part of the world, a religion than many people respect and believe, and real people who may be involved. Too often when we (general we) talk about 'others,' we fall into the trap of bringing up rumors and half-truths that were 'heard somewhere' and may not necessarily be as based in fact as a true debate and discussion call for. Keep these things in mind as the discussion continues and evolves; remember that even when it's a case of something you may not agree with, and may not understand, it's a good rule of thumb to approach first with respect. You're free to disagree, of course, just be sure you're disagreeing after learning exactly what you're disagreeing with, and couching that dissenting opinion in language that is not trying to offend. Thanks! :)
       
    6. I'll have to side with Rosslyn, as I have done some studies of religion and female dress code (not together, really, but both in general) Sometimes 'outsiders' look at the traditionally fully-covered ladies of these countries and think that they are oppressed and aren't allowed 'free will'. But the tables can be turned, in general women in America obsess about their body image, get big boobs this decade, have narrow hips the next. Then everyone wants your legs to be longer. You need to be curvy, now you need to be skinny. If you're fully covered all the time, none of these types of 'ideal body' issues apply. These mainstream ideas can also lead to harmful states of mind and harmful practices.

      I do think the topic has become a bit convoluted; After reading all the replies I'm not quite sure how to respond.

      There is probably a fair share of people in that area who own ABJDs, but because of the strong presence of particular culture norms, they probably aren't taking their dolls to the mall.

      We really just need more people from that part of the world to share their experiences. I know I'm curious now ^_^.
       
    7. Why is everybody getting fixated on burquas and nobody mentioning the prohibition on the depiction of human form in general? I would think that, and not the revealing doll clothes, would be the main obstacle for the BJD hobby spreading in conservative Moslem societies.
       
    8. Thanks for your post, Chaos-zebra! It looks like you might be closer to a first-hand experience of the original issue than many of us. I hope we can get more posts from people who are familiar with or from the cultures discussed.

      I meant for what I've said so far to include the conservative attitudes about the human body in general, and yeah, I'm curious as to whether that's true, how stringent that idea is adhered to, and whether that would include dolls and BJDs or not.
      However, it would appear it doesn't, if there's a widely accepted children's fashion type doll called Fulla, as mentioned earlier.

      Edit: Hang on now, Come to think of it, I've seen lots of art from predominately Islamic countries that does depict human forms, and my father brought my little sisters these gorgeous soft sculpted dolls in long black burqa and veil outfits after he went on a trip to the United Arab Emirates and found those dolls for them in a market there.
      So maybe the rumored prohibition on figure depiction is open to interpretation in different areas.
       
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    9. I agree, I don't think American culture is the best one. All cultures put pressure on their citizens in various problematic ways. (Even in America where the general thought is that we're pretty liberal, it's still illegal not to wear clothes. That's insane when you think about it. It hurts nobody and changes nothing, - except that you now lack pockets, which some outfits don't have anyway - but you can get LOCKED UP! But I know you're referring more to the traits that contrast us from Muslim culture.)
      The only way to get away from it is to get away from people.

      Also, the US already did the oppressed women thing and most people here agree that it's a lot better for everyone to be treated equal because it turns out everyone pretty much IS equal, (we have proven we can all do the same stuff when given the chance) so to criticize Muslim rules about women is just to speak from the experiences of our own history, our own culture. I think we have a right to do that.


      And Junkets, yes, many people believe these things strongly, but why does that mean they shouldn't be challenged? If we couldn't debate delicate subjects, we wouldn't get anywhere.

      And I'd like to say that I AM trying to stay away from assumptions and stereotypes. I've talked to Muslims and people with experience in those regions and I'm kind of going on that. I'm aware some of those countries are pretty similar to us in their thinking, but some of them are not, and those are kind of the ones I've had in mind during this debate. The more conservative side of things. I sometimes say things a little bluntly and it might come off as short-sighted, but I don't mean MORE than I say. Like if I say "there is a taboo" I don't mean to imply "there is a strong taboo that I assume everyone follows" I just mean "I know a taboo exists in some form." (And yeah, Katyok, I'd like to hear more about that taboo from first-handers too.) Please read my posts this way, heh.;;;



      ANYWAY, BACK TO DOLLS, SORTA. RIGHT? SORRY THIS POST IS LONG. I have a question for anyone who knows: What are the laws about importing certain stuff in some of those countries? And what are the laws about what you can own? (You know, as in stuff that might be related to BJDs. Like porn, lol. The relation being naked bodies. Cases where a distinction might not be seen by customs bureaucrats.) I'd like to hear specific country names too. I AM interested to learn about that. World trade, w00t.
      (Maybe there's even a site we could look at that lists that kind of thing for different countries? Anyone know one? Then we could have a better-informed debate.)
       
    10. S
      Excellent point, Rosslyn! I have an art album of traditional Arabic miniatures, and another of medieval Persian painting - gorgeous figurative art. I believe it's from predominantly Shia areas though (ancient Iran and Iraq). Conservative Sunnis, however, have much stricter prohibition on representation of living beings. But I am not an Islamic scholar. I would love to hear an opinion from someone who knows what they are talking about.
       
    11. Ok first of all I'm just going to say that, I'm british, my parents are british. However I was born in Saudi Arabia and lived there until I was twelve and my family moved to the Netherlands (and boy can we talk culture shock? XD). I'm not really going to get into it, but I'll say now, that yes even as an expatriate I did have to wear an abaya/burqua (granted only when outside of my own home) and honestly? I didn't mind it. I could, as a kid, possibly have gotten away with not wearing one, but frankly I wore it as a sign or respect for the country and religion.

      This fact however I can say something interesting and actually on topic about. Now I'd like to say right off that its obviously been a while since I lived in Saudi (we moved in 1999) so I'm basing this of my experiences then, but having talked to friend who have visited and still live there it doesn't seem like that much has changed. Please forgive me if I'm wrong.

      As religious law is used in Saudi, the prohibition on depictions of the human body is actually a pretty good point. I'm gonna keep this to dolls, otherwise this could go on for a while. In my experience, dolls were allowed in the country providing they were under a certain level of realism. Or in other words, baby dolls that we're anatomically correct? Big no no. Once when flying back from England after Christmas, I'd been given one of the more realistic baby boy dolls as a present. It got seized by customs

      Which makes me wonder if bjds would actually be allowed in the country, things may have got a bit less strict since I was there, but considering the realism and anatomical correctness of our dolls I honestly think there'd at least be a hassle to get one into the country.
       
    12. I was about to bring up Fullah. Those dolls actually fascinate me. I wonder if anyone has made any BJDs with such religious convictions and religious dress. Religous dress is really a fasination of mine.

      bora-taki Interesting to hear an perspective from someone who's lived in those countries.

      Honestly, I think the ideal would be a culture that respects all levels of dress, from short-shorts to a burqa(sp?). However, you find often that the people that respect one do not respect the other, which I find is sad.
       
    13. Wow, thanks for your inside view! That was fascinating to hear about. It does match up with the other things that have been mentioned so far- Dolls seem to be okay in some places as long as they aren't too anatomically correct.
       
    14. Why is it okay for a person to expose themselves publicly but not okay for other places to ask people to cover up in public? Who decides that's the standard? Most places in the world would not find it INSANE that a person could be locked up for public nudity. "Liberal" is not necessarily worse or better than other ways to be.

      Males and females have several critical differences, I think that's biologically rather clear, actually.
      You have the right to criticize other religions, but that does not make it a wise course of action.


      ANYWAY, None of these things are very relevant to the topic at hand, so I'd continue to ask that more firsthand accounts about ball jointed dolls be posted, as conjecture gets us nowhere.
       
    15. I will say this, "typically American points of view" are not actually typical American points of view. They are just what a bunch say more loudly and that is what gets covered by media. Not all Americans are "liberal", thankfully. Now, I'm a capitalist. But I'm also very religious. (Yes, I can be both.) I draw lines with what I wear and buy everyday, including with my dolls.

      I'd love to hear more about how BJDs are considered in the kind of environment originally mentioned (however vaguely). I love studying different cultures and an anatomically correct doll like our BJDs sounds like it might cross the line, but if it's been modded before entering the country (removing or playing down the genitalia, that sort of thing), would it still be crossing the line? Is there an actual line to cross? Please, tell us more!
       
    16. This is an excerpt from an article on the inter net:

      "Dubai Festival City, a key sponsor of DSS 2009, is currently hosting the Middle East’s first Doll Art Exhibition in a unique exhibition showcasing over 300 hand crafted dolls by artists from around the world. Dolls Art Exhibition unveils a different perspective on what is still a popular toy for children. The event introduces a fresh approach at doll-making. The artists transform the dolls into magnificent pieces of art, and uplift the stature to what can be considered as an exclusive collector’s item."
      The link is here: http://www.dubaicityguide.com/site/news/news-details.asp?newsid=25097&newstype=Latest%2024%20Hrs%20News

      I receive several doll magazines and I remember reading articles about this exhibition in a few of them. The pictures taken from the show did include some BJDs, but I do believe they were costumed and presented as art, which in my opinion, these dolls were. I don't think religion necessarily precludes owning dolls. Some practices may be more or less specific on certain things, but interpretation of dogma varies by region often within a country's borders. Also, I do believe economics would play a larger role in owning a doll.

      If the argument presented is that anatomically correct dolls would arouse a prurient intrest, then not only would they be objectionable to some Islamic ideologies, but also to many Judeo-Christian ones as well. I would be curious if the Amish, Orthodox Catholics, Hasidic Jews or Fundamentalists of any religion own dolls.

      One more thought, at the beginning of this post, the question was asked of "Arabic" countries. According to the 2003 US census, 1.8 million people in the USA followed Islam. The population of Brunei, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, is just over 370,000. 65% of Brunei is Muslim. Since there are more Muslims in the US by number, not by percentage, what does that say?

      Statistics can always be "interpreted".
       
    17. Aside from comparing notes on culture, what about economy? BJDs are a luxury item, and considered frivolous or wasteful in wealthy, first world nations.

      I can't imagine they would be too popular in some of the poorest nations on Earth. :sweat
       

    18. Interesting article on Dubai, thank you for it :) I know there is a woman on the forums who owns several MNF dolls who lives in Kuwait I don't know if she received them through customs there or not though.

      I can't really address the discussion since I don't have much to add. :) The Amish comment, I can't speak for them of course I'm hypothesizing from what I know. But the Amish lifestyle would not permit a way to obtain a BJD except through some very special circumstances (having the money, being able to obtain it without the use of a computer/internet etc etc), I'm sure given their lifestyle they'd see it as a very pointless expenditure.

      You do raise an interesting point though about Hasidic Jews, some family friends of mine are Jewish and I know that the Hasidic women dress as modestly as most Islamic women (long skirts, sleeves, and a head covering at all times). I can see how people of other backgrounds and upbringings might have an issue with the 'realism' of the dolls. It might not be because of the dolls themselves either, it could be based on the overall prosperity of the country.

      EDIT, just saw Anneke's post as soon as I posted. :) Anneke phrased it so much better than me.

       
    19. Anneke, not all countries in that region or poor though. In fact, some have some very rich people in them! Just because the majority wouldn't afford or want to spend money on a doll doesn't mean that noone in the region would (the same goes for here after all, as you rightly point out most people consider BJDs way too pricey).
       
    20. Just taking a moment here to go totally and COMPLETELY off topic in this thread and say (as a woman, not a Moderator) that I don't value or desire any of the things listed in this post that have been set forth as "things women biologically want/need." In addition, I work in a hospital, and I see nurses - both male and female - going about their work all the time. And they are definitely using their "right brain" analytical skills constantly, and in many cases aren't being particularly nurturing, or if they are, it's simply an act to please the patient, and enable them to get out of the room (and move on to someone else) more quickly. So I would argue that nursing has not historically been a female-dominated profession because of any "nurturing" inclination - rather, I think it has been female-dominated because our society has for centuries told women that it was an acceptable way for them to earn a living (right up there with washing clothes and being a nanny).

      I would also argue (on the "more male engineers and computer programmers" part) that despite the progress that has been made in this country, women do NOT have every opportunity men have. There are many, many factors that influence career and educational choices, and biology is only one of the components that directs the actions of men and women, in the USA or elsewhere. This does not mean that there are not biological differences between males and females, but I do not believe that they have the same importance that seems to be placed on them in the post I quoted.

      None of which has anything to do with dolls, or the topic at hand. :) I apologize, but as a woman working in a male-dominated career field, I have to fight against these very viewpoints every day, and I failed at resisting the urge to soapbox a bit.