Ball- jointed Dolls in Arabic Countries

This. Islam isn't the only religion to have an issue with representations of the human figure. It's hardly the only religion that dictates how people of any gender act/dress/are treated. It's not the only religion that requires women to cover their hair, even. Islam also doesn't = all Arabic people and nations, nor is it only performed in radical fashion. This discussion maybe isn't really defined in the most useful way. Biological determinist statements and sweeping statements about how women are treated in various cultures are muddying the waters, too.

Honestly, even in supposedly secular Western culture, I'm thinking a lot of people would be weirded out or offended by the anatomical correctness of ABJDs. I mean, when Dragonball was localized for North American audiences, they blurred out the glimpse of little kid willy in the transformation sequence . . . Some of the gothic styled or fantasy dolls could easily make Christians uncomfortable. Getting back to the topic at hand, I hope that we can get more firsthand information.

Kiyakotari, I really appreciate everything you just said.

 

It's late and I skimmed this thread, but I find it very interesting and I'll read it indepth later.

But I have a technical question: Aren't the company websites rather other-culture non-friendly? And I don't mean that they are predudicial, but unless you speak Japanese, Korean, Chinese, or English aren't you kind of out of luck? And even if someone in an Arabic country did get one of these dolls without speaking these languages, how would they chat on forums that are one-language-only forums? It seems that the likelyhood of an Arabic person being a BJD collector is just... well... impractical. (Am I wrong?)

 

I think this is a very interesting point. If you don't have a computer, you can't buy stuff online and most BJDs are sold online. This reminds me of a guy I used to study with. After graduating he got a job in Abu Dhabi and he had real trouble finding a blog host that wasn't blocked by the government over there as most social network sites were blocked. If your internet access is restricted, then your internet purchases may be restricted too. It may not be similar in all countries in that area, but it's just a thought worth noting.

 

I have a friend living in Israel in a small town. She loves BJDs but they are not allowed dolls there, Not even todler dolls you see kids play with. I dont know why : /
My mon used to post those to their little girl all the time.
I guess Its a sensitive topic and you cant give any one a piece of your mind, you just have to respect that ^^

 

Maybe a DOA wide search for "anyone from India or the Middle East?" would produce some more informative results? I'm sure there are members from these countries and maybe they haven't seen this thread or avoided it because of some of the sweeping generalizations being put forward by a minority here.

Chaos Zebra: You have a peculiarly outdated understanding of how the human brain operates, Nihmo's edited comment is far nearer what current research has revealed, to my understanding anyway. I think you should perhaps be a little more cautious in the all inclusive term "women", as in: "From a woman's point of view there's no benefit in not getting married..." etc, you make a lot of statements where you are totally reducing women AND men to convenient stereotypes, something that Western cuture in general is trying to push against (not saying that isn't true of other cultures), besides, I thought this was about dolls?

If you have experience of both cultures, please give us some insight into the original question if you can, that would be useful

 

I would think how bjds were presented would make a difference. There are also some bodies on the market that do not have sculpted genitals, though they are more unusual.

 

Well, my friend S is Muslim, in a predominately Islamic area, and she has a couple of Obitsus. One she dressed/customized to look like Laura Croft. She is a pretty traditional person, in terms of the Islamic culture and religion, but from what she tells me, her family views her Obitsus as just harmless dolls. She has them displayed in her room, and she takes pictures with them in certain locations, but from what she's told me, and shown me, no one pays them much mind. Granted, I'm not sure if this is just her area/her example that might be out of the norm, so it's possible her experience with this is unique.

 

I am curious if anyone has had problems shipping dolls. This was mentioned earlier. I would think that customs issues could be an indication of a country's prohibitions. This is not necessarily a religious decision either. Perhaps some sellers could relate their experiences.

As to the issues of oppression, be it race, religion, or sex, these problems have existed for thousands of years. History is replete with examples. However, the ability to communicate with people has never been so easy and within reach of so many. The world is becoming, albeit slowly, a global melting pot. I remember the Cold War between the USA and Russia, the fall of the wall in Berlin, the dissolution of the Soviet Bloc. Time will bring change. Lively debate, such as this, is wonderful. I am impressed to find such passionate people who also collect dolls.

 

I had no problems shipping a doll to and receiving a doll from Qatar ( I am in the US). It took a couple weeks (non-EMS), but was much faster and more hassle free than my experiences in shipping and receiving to Canada for a comparison. I sent a Dollmore doll and received an Angel Region if anyone was wondering.

I wanted to add that I will not be joining the debate (hence way my post was so short), I just wanted to share my experience since someone asked specifically...I have way to much to say on many of the points brought up here and I would end up writing a book on the forums and would prefer to not subject you all to that lol.

 

This debate thread has the potential to be quite interesting, many of us in the West don't know much about Eastern/Arabic culture beyond speculation and what we read from our biased news services, but the thread has gone extremely off-topic. Mentioning different faiths and the different traits of males and famales in relation to the debate is fine, but the last few pages have not been about dolls or even Arabic BJD owners at all.

Please lets get back on track, otherwise this thread will be locked.

 

Deleted!! XD

 

I am planning on doing it and I know of some people who have but fear posting these dolls on DoA for fear of criticism and backlash. Like I said, I hope to have a Planetdoll Mini who will be a hijabi-observant Muslim girl who is entering her teen years. I still have much work and research to do before I go about this though.

I also tend to be conservative with regards to what my dolls wear. They don't wear short skirts, or sleeveless items...even when I had an MSD I dressed them modestly; my AF Lily had a slight exception because of her "age"

I too wonder if a modded doll would be alright...as well as something like a Puki or a Pukifee which is gender neutral and has no obvious "parts". But then I figure there would be an outcry that one who chooses to do this is insulting the art of BJD...but I'm not sure.

I think so too...the only African country I've seen reperesented on this forum is South Africa for example. Even though a country may be wealthy, it doesn't mean it's PEOPLE are...just its government.

For the Amish (I am of Amish descent) it is okay for a CHILD to have a doll and often that doll is homemade, dressed, and is shared among siblings. An Amish adult would never own a doll such as a BJD as it would be seen as frivolous and unecessary.

I've gotten some interesting remarks from my fellow Catholics too as well as other Christians...many about the amoutn of money I've spent and others about the anatomy of my dolls...but I don't focus on the body at all!

 

Sorry for the double post but I ran out of text

I wouldn't think so either...when most people in these regions are struggling to make their basic needs met...it is possible that our dolls would be seen as even more wasteful.

Do you think you could ask her about the customs and how it affected her getting her dolls? Many countries in the Middle East vary VASTLY on religious law and doctrinal things...I don't know much about Kuwait though.

You bring up a good point: Computer access. So much of our hobby is online and others have brought up the langauge barrier. Many people I've seen on the forum use online translators to communicate with us and you know those things aren't the most accurate . We've seen countries even on DoA that have restrictions on Internet access placed by their governments; not everyone has the freedom I have in the US to seek out information

Pukifees aren't THAT unusual. It's mostly tinies that don't have sculpted genitals...I also infer that the anatomical correctness is an intrinsi part of the hobby to many people, especially for the larger dolls.

 

I would really implore you to do so. Honestly, I hope this forum can find a place for religious tolerance in it. I know a girl who recently converted to Islam and wears a hijab by completely her own choice. She has gotten a lot of backlash from her family and others. I call her a rebel, because while it's not really what you'd think when you say that, she really has gone against social norms to find herself, more so than perhaps even the stereotypical connotation of this word.

 

I was looking online for some doll clothing patterns from the Middle East and Asia and I found some very good links.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Muslim-Dolls-To-Represent-A-Moderate-Islamic-Society-In-Indonesia

http://www.islamfortoday.com/iran02.htm

This link is for sewing simple clothes in human sizes, but can easily be scaled down to fit a doll:
http://www.modestclothes.com/patterns.htm

And I want to thank Reine for her comments. I would quote them, but I don't know how to yet!

 

Yeah, I was thinking of bjds as a whole -- not just tinies. My Cutie Delf Cory has a gender neutral body, which ended up working quite well since I wanted to use the body as a girl. However, when you get out of childlike tinies, the selection isn't there so much, though there are some.

I personally feel they look odd when the adult bodies are very detailed, but there's nothing down below. However, it wouldn't necessarily stop me from buying a body I otherwise really liked as I don't normally take pics that show full frontal nudity. A mod to remove genitals wouldn't be too difficult if someone were so inclined, and I don't see people making that much of an issue out of it -- people do mods all the time.

 

First of all, most BJDs don't come dressed at all. Unless you buy a full-set, you are buying a naked doll. You can dress it any way you want.
Secondly, I would like to point out that there are many interpretations of Islam and many different ways of practicing it. Just as there is a wide range of Christian and Jewish interpretations and degrees of strictness, etc. Not every Muslim woman covers her hair, for instance.
As far as dolls go, from my art history classes a million years ago, I seem to remember traditionally Islam religion did not allow representation of living shapes, hence the development of the incredibly beautiful abstract tile designs of ancient Islam. How that translate to Islam today I don't know. But if that is still the case, obviously if there are those who believe/honor that tradition, they will not have a doll because it is a representation of life.
I have seen BJDs in beautiful harem outfits, if that is pertinent in any way. I have also seen male BJDs dressed in Sheik-type outfits and other long robes. Just because a doll is completely covered does not mean that it will not pose.
My son-in-law is Eastern Indian Muslim, was raised in Bombay (Mumbai), and attended Catholic School until college. His mother was here visiting and I gave her a little Hujoo dressed in a salwar kameez. She is very Muslim, prays five times a day, eats Halal (which is similar to Jewish Kosher), and so forth. She does not cover her hair unless praying.
She brought me some traditional Indian dolls as a gift.
Bottom line- just being Muslim doesn't mean you can't like dolls, and whether or not you would be allowed to have them would be a very personal, family issue, I would think.

As far as the friend mentioned above getting grief about wearing a hijab, people should be able to dress how they like, whether it means wearing lolita clothes, being covered with tattoos and piercings, or wearing a headscarf. I don't understand why it should matter to anyone else how you decide to dress.

Finally, in regards to interpreting modest dress as being oppressive- my husband is an underwater photographer who has traveled to most of the best dive destinations on the planet. There are still cultures on some of the more remote places (like parts of Fiji) where it is completely acceptable for women to go topless. I wonder how these women would feel about us being oppressed and forced to cover our breasts? Oddly enough, in some of these places, while topless is okay, showing your thighs (as in, wearing shorts shorts) is not allowed. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

I'm honestly confused as to why this has to be such an issue or anymore interesting than owning a BJD in the USA, Mexico, Japan, China, South Korea, Russia, France, New Zealand, South Africa or elsewhere in the world. I've met numerous people on-line who collect dolls from around the world and the one thing I've learned is that people are people no matter where they are located. What brings people together is the enjoyment of dolls no matter where the people are from.

 

Disclaimer : I am a Muslim in an Islamic ASEAN nation. Which while isn't conservative, is certainly heading back that way, God knows why. Also, I'm not a strict/conservative Muslim.

Several issues that may impede doll collecting in a conservative Islamic setting :

1. Fear of Idol Worship
-There's a fine line between playing pretend with a doll and putting "believe of life" in it like many do. If a person fusses/obsesses about said doll too much, it could be seen by others as idol worship so it would be discouraged.

2. Restriction on potrayal of human figure
- Man, by nature, strive for perfection. One day there'll be a point where man tries to play god (or haven't we already?), which is a big no-no in Islam. In the case of dolls, it's the pursuit of making them look as close to human as possible. Conservative families will usually discourage dolls that look too close to human. I even have an aunt who tells me that my dolls cannot be in perfect form, must have at least a broken finger or some other imperfection imposed on it.

3. Overtly sexualised/exposing fashion?
- Well maybe, if you put them in bikinis 24/7. But usually these dolls will be in your house. In your room. You don't have to bring them out. I only bring my dolls out for photos when no one is home or at night as my family are retiring. Not that my family minds. My parents have developed tolerance towards them because I don't show obsession much. They tease me to bring them out to show to the guests sometimes, but I always decline to avoid any conservative reactions. <--- also I keep my room strictly off limits to most guests.

And on the issue of nude doll in customs and coming through the post... it's only a problem if the customs open it up, right? And the postman bringing it to you wouldn't know what's in it. Our dolls aren't in transparent boxes! Neither are there any images of nudity on the doll boxes! Whether or not they're shipped nude shouldn't matter in most cases. And you don't have to open the box in front of people and that sort of shyness can be overcomed, if only for when you're alone.

I don't think it'll be as hard as you'd think to find English speakers, or at least readers in this case, in Arabic countries? With globalisation's help, English has been spread into being the (if not second) most used language in the world. You should understand this.

Also.

What is this I don't even There's a time and place for everything. That's why you have the nudist colony.