Being Labeled a "Flake" in the MP

I've found this thread very interesting. It has led me to leave flaky feedback on a transaction which fell through earlier this year because, after many pm's and my making it clear from the very beginning that I was in the UK, the seller changed her mind once terms had been agreed and said she wasn't able to ship internationally. I had been very reluctant to leave such feedback until I read this discussion.

 

What people said, very politely I believe, was that if you were having trouble meeting your financial obligations on a frequent basis, it might be wise to look at where you are spending your money. They also suggested that you establish more of a financial buffer for emergencies before spending on non-necessities like dolls. This is good advice for everyone, no matter who they are, whether or not they have children, or how much income they have.

Asking for extensions is better than backing out, but it's not ideal, either. Buyers have emergencies, and sellers do, too. And when a buyer delays or ignores a payment, it can often put the seller in a dire situation. This is yet another reason why that advice about keeping a financial buffer is appropriate for everyone.

I have found that the best way to ensure that I can truly afford something is to save up for it in its entirety before committing to buy it. I cannot predict the future -- nor can anyone else -- so buying on layaway will always be a crapshoot. Sometimes I am tempted to buy now and pay later because I am afraid I will miss a chance to have something I want. But then I remember that part of being an adult is making good choices, and being financially secure and prepared is much more important than having a doll to play with.

 

Perhaps I'm a "privileged rich person", but I have pets and an out of office hours emergency vet visit can easily cost $150 or more, which I can pay twice (since I have two pets) with money from my pet emergency savings account at any given time. If that money gets spend, I refill it with money from my normal savings account (meant for fun stuff like buying dolls) so I can take my pets to a vet even if they just went the other day. That's being responsible for your pets' health and I wouldn't treat my child with any less care.
I'm not calling you a bad mother, but if you worry about an $80 doctor bill for your daughter, the responsible thing is to wait with buying dolls and save up so you have an emergency fund. Then you can pay any emergency related bills and buy dolls without worrying.

A child needing to see a doctor is an emergency where nobody is at fault. A buyer not being able to pay a payment, because they have a sudden bill and they bought a doll instead of saving money for emergencies is not an emergency. It's mismanagement of money by the buyer, because everybody knows emergencies happen. You child needs to see a doctor, your cat gets sick, your washing machine breaks down, your car gets stolen, you lose your job, you break your arm, you drop your phone and it stops working, and so on. Bad things happen so you should have some money as a buffer, because if you don't worse things happen.
Sellers like responsible buyers, so be responsible.

 

I know you said you won't be returning to this thread but in case you change your mind or just for future reference to other readers/lurkers in this thread...

This is not a Newbieland thread, this is not a Discussion thread, this is a Debate thread. People are going to quite possibly disagree with you. People are going to quote you and explain why they don't agree with you. People will direct comments to you if they do not agree with you. People will take any examples given and argue with them. As long as everyone is being polite, I really think that is just par for the course in a debate thread.

To be honest, I'm GLAD that "flakey" feedback is a scary thing. I think it is important for buyers to take their responsibility to pay a seller seriously. As a seller I take my responsibility to get your item out in the time frame stated in my sales thread, pack your item super carefully, make sure your item arrives safely and in satisfactory condition very seriously. I think a buyer needs to take their part seriously too.

 

I once had to flake on a sale I'd agreed to because someone flaked on a sale that had been agreed the day before. Because my seller upped and disappeared I didn't have the funds to buy the doll I'd gone after... I felt incredibly bad and guilty and that taught me a valuable lesson (don't spend money til you see the black and whites of the paypal email) and also that explaining and apologising go a long way. Because I was mature and polite enough to explain what had happened to the seller, they very kindly didn't leave me flakey feedback, and I have never left it for anyone who has come to me and politely given a very good reason for why they had to drop out of an agreed sale either.

The problem is when people pester for a hold or agree to buy then just disappear and refuse to answer PMs. You see them posting busily on the threads but they cannot be bothered to approach you and apologise at the very least. I no longer hold a doll for anyone as I have been flaked on too many times, and anyone who flakes on a sale these days better have a very good reason or I will be leaving feedback.

 

Can't we disagree with her without telling her what she should or shouldn't do or implying things about her responsibility? It's getting rather personal...

No one is disagreeing that the possibility of getting flaky feedback is worrisome to newcomers. I get nervous about it too and I'm still new! One of the recent posts had the best advice for avoiding that possibility: wait until you have all the money and then some to pay it off in one go.

 

I thought it was rather TMI to read about what kind of bills were hard to pay and what choices were made. It didn't get personal, it started personal.

As for people worried about having their reputation ruined forever and ever, don't worry too much. Most sellers look at the last two pages of feedback threads (I know I do) and not all of the feedback pages, since many times people with years of good feedback suddenly dropped off the face of the earth in the middle of transactions. Sellers like to know how buyers' current behaviour is and they mostly care about the past when someone did something really bad or is a repeat offender.
If you flake on one sale for whatever reason, you can try to redeem yourself by buying small items. Sellers are often willing to take risks with cheap items they are having a hard time to sell. You can also join swaps as there are swap hosts who are willing to give people with bad feedback a second chance. It's not like your reputation is ruined forever when you get one flakey feedback post.
Some people will shun you in transactions when you have once received bad feedback, but other will not.

 

That was my take on it, as well. If people bring their personal circumstances up as examples in a debate, it's only natural that people will give personal responses.

 

And, as a general rule, never come to a debate thread seeking sympathy and/or validation. They don't work that way.

This. A thousand times this.
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To me, this thread sums up why the flaky rule was implemented in the first place. Buyers and sellers have a mutual responsibility to one another, especially when long-term orders are involved, and when doing transactions on a one-on-one basis accepting responsibility for a screw-up is a hard thing to do.

As I’ve said before in this thread, that’s not to say that legitimate emergencies don’t come up. They do, and they can be devastating. But if you browse the problem transaction thread or have ever had one yourself, it seems like it’s so much easier for the party who screwed up to blame a personal emergency of some form rather than simply say “I screwed up.” Either that or everyone and their little dog too is having personal emergencies all the time.

The flaky rule is designed to remind both buyers and sellers to think responsibly when entering a transaction. Because, even though this isn’t eBay or some big-box retailer, these are still business transactions that need to be treated with the maturity and foresight given to any other commitment.

For buyers, that means paying what you agreed to pay when you agreed to pay it. It means not changing your mind after entering into a sales agreement because you find something you like more. Or because you fall out of love. It means considering your purchase carefully before committing. If layaways are involved, it means thinking long-term and having a contingency plan for unexpected emergencies that may hammer your financies. It means not juggling a layaway (or multiple layaways) when you are living paycheck-to-paycheck and something like fuel fluctuations, or an unexpected co-payment, or home repairs, or a car breaking down, can put your bank account into the red or close to it. It means not committing to a long-term payment plan with the mindset of “ok, if nothing goes wrong and I watch every single penny I can do this.”

It means planning ahead and being responsible.

For a seller, it means not changing your mind after committing to a sale, or cancelling an already-agreed-to commitment because you got a better offer. It means being financially responsible and not using your funds from your doll sales for anything until they are ALL actually in your account, in case something happens and the buyer backs out of the sale…so that you’re not in a financial bind as well (I will admit to being guilty of doing this once...never again). It means shipping when you say you will, and not claiming a personal emergency because you found something better to do that day, or were too lazy, or forgot you’d be out of town that week, or simply forgot.

It means planning ahead and being responsible.

There absolutely does not need to be an “unforeseen circumstances” clause to the flakey feedback rule. It may not have the most perfect name, or PC name, on the planet, but it says exactly what it means. “The person who received this feedback did not honor their end of the commitment.” The reasons why are ultimately irrelevant because, unless someone is actively providing copies of their unexpected expenses (which is a ridiculous thing to do or ask for), there is no way to discern between a real emergency and someone making excuses.

TL;DR: With a little forward thinking and planning, one shouldn't ever have to worry about becoming a flake. And, if you don't think you'll be able to honor the commitment, the best thing to do is not commit in the first place. Wait until you know you've got everything squared away, and it will always be smooth sailing.​

 

First of all, I second everything aceinit said. That sums up buyer and seller responsibilities of transacting in LUXURY items perfectly.

I quoted you Lizzard because that is the attitude I have as a buyer, too. And, when I'm a seller, I'm looking for a buyer like you.

When I sell here, I don't offer layaway because:
1) I'm busy working and running my household. I don't want one more thing to keep track of. This is a hobby for me, not a business.

2) I don't want to be in a situation of dealing with multiple delayed payments or someone renigging, and then I have to be the heavy. Knowing me, I won't be the heavy and refund everything, thus be out my sale and my time.

I know not offering layaway loses me customers, but it's worth it to me to avoid headaches. I also know I won't give Flake feedback because I go right into empathy mode. That means I'm biasing the true feedback for a customer.

As a buyer, the only time I've considered giving flake feedback is when I contacted a seller about a doll with my intention to purchase it and we agreed on a price. She promised in a heartfelt PM that the doll was mine, no worries (literally her words), but she was about to go on vacation and would contact me again as soon as she came back. Well, a month went by (much longer than she told me she'd be gone), so I PM'ed her. No reply. I PMed again. No reply. Finally, I told her I was disappointed that she was not going through with our transaction and sought the doll with a WTB (successful, BTW!) I knew she was around, because I saw her posting other dolls for sale in the MP. I should have left Flake feedback, I know. I'm a patsy. But, it was good to vent.

 

That actually is a fairly recent trend in the Marketplace and came about precisely because there were so many people just up and walking away from agreed-upon purchases. There was an enormous rash of them a few years back (and if I'm not completely dreaming this up, the "flakey" designation was added by the Mods just about that time, in part to help discourage people from doing so). Sellers WERE losing money - and time, which sometimes is even more valuable - because by the time things got sorted out, the other potential buyers might have gone to something different.

Not only that but the buyers who just decided "naah, I don't want it any more, gimme my money back" were sometimes tossing hissy fits of Biblical proportions, and the poor sellers were in a very unhappy position (maybe they'd put their doll up to fund a layaway of their own. Now they're in danger of not making THEIR layaway payment). But by the seller's adding "non-refundable" in the posting, a buyer agreeing to the purchase has agreed that his or her money is nonrefundable. It is for all intents and purposes a legal contract, and you're required to follow through on your end of it. Being labelled "flakey" is mild in comparison with what would happen if, for example, you decided you no longer wanted to buy the car you just signed for. (And you can bet that they wouldn't be refunding your payments, either). And there is always the understood "unless otherwise agreed upon by both parties" -- meaning that arrangements for exceptions can be made.

I agree with whoever said "it's SUPPOSED" to be scary - it's there to provide information to other potential trading partners, the same way your credit rating is out there as information for potential lenders.

I wouldn't take offense over the idea that maybe the finances might be a tad too tight to be buying 'spensive resin dolls. There are many younger collectors on this forum who are not experienced enough with making and balancing a budget to make a proper judgment about the relative importance of things. (And older collectors who never quite figured out how to do it even with experience ) The posts made sound to me more like helpful suggestions than personal attacks on you, especially since you said that you had simply asked for an extension, which had been agreed to.

You did NOT flake out on your transaction, therefore you have no reason to be scared of flakey feedback.

 

I completely agree with having the money in hand before buying a doll. However:

Baakay makes a good point. This goes both ways. If buying New Doll A depends on me selling Old Doll B then I need to make sure I have all the money from B before I purchase A. If B is being sold on layaway then I simply have to wait. While it's certainly the buyer's fault if they flake, it's not the buyer's fault if I depend on their purchase of B so I can buy A.

 

I can't say I'm scared of this, but due to recent events, I am cautious. Long story short, someone threw a hissy fit on me because the doll part I shipped to them didn't arrive in a week.

...they lived on the otherside of the planet in a country with a decent customs wait. What the hell! Even after I gave them tracking (which was working, though the other party claimed it was not. That pissed me off) and scanned the mailing reciept, they STILL refused to believe that I had mailed out the parts until tracking "mysteriously" started working -_-. Ye gods. That was frustrating, and despite me doing absolutely EVERYTHING in my power to make the transaction go smoothly, I was still scared of getting negative feedback from the ordeal. :/ I was so turned off from the marketplace after that that I refused to do business there for months. Lol.

/end venting

That is, in no way, however, a fault of the flake system. I just had a very unfortunate experience with a buyer. I definitely agree that flaking SHOULD be a scary thing.

 

I think in a case like this, though, if flakey feedback was left, you can contact the mods and if they agree with your stance the feedback can be removed.

 

You (General 'you' since there seem to be a few people with this mindset) really have no reason to worry about receiving undeserved flakey feedback. I remember talking to a mod about that several years ago and what they told me was if anyone did leave unwarranted flakey feedback (IE, things the rules say they can't leave flakey feedback for) they will remove that flakey feedback post from your thread if you bring the whole situation to their attention because in that situation it is them who is breaking rules, not you.

Flakey feedback is nothing to be afraid of unless you truly are a flake by the DoA forum's set of rules defining one. In that case, I think everyone has the right to know because it effects anyone who may enter into a transaction with you. Heck, even having flakey feedback may not deter anyone from doing business with you. I've done business with people with multiple flakey feedback strikes on their record, knowing full well how badly that could have turned out for me. But that's the point, to give other users the information to make their own decisions on if someone is trustworthy enough for them to do business with or not. We should all be thankful such a system exists for our benefit.

 

I'm one of those buyers who feels sort of obligated to follow through on a promised sale, not because I'm afraid of being labeled flakey, but because it's just the right thing to do. I've been in the middle of a transaction and had second thoughts, but followed through simply because I figure I can always resell the item in question if I have to and because I don't spend doll money I don't have. Sure, emergencies come up and I've regretted spending the money on something frivolous, like a new DH Fer But like someone upthread said, this is a luxury hobby. The dolls and their stuff are expensive and it pays to be responsible with your money in order to avoid getting into a financial fix.

 

I will echo what aceinit said.

I do not mind when people ask me questions and extra pictures and the like; I find that completely reasonable and no problem at all. It is only when people commit to buy and decide to back out at the last possible minute when other buyers were interested that leaves me incredibly frustrated and left loose. Hence the reason why the warning is there. It discourages flakes and makes everything simpler for both the buyer and I when we understand the terms in a clear and concise way prior to the transaction.

I have had people in the past that leave me hanging for half a month or so without any regard to me or the people I have had to refuse because of the first come-first serve policy. Or when everything is arranged for layaway and they do all but send me the payment but suddenly start reading the small print on the sales thread and discover that they can't do it. And those instances are not the worst of all that has happened here but I now believe that's just the characteristic of the market. As for holds, I don't mind that either but I definitely prefer to do it only for buyers that I trust who had already bought from me a couple of times before.

Now, I know that life emergencies happen; in fact, it has happened to me before. In that case, it's fine to put things on pause before resuming the transaction. I understand that, no biggie. But if they choose to opt out and abuse trust it becomes really apparent in their next couple of transactions. And that I do not appreciate and am thankful to the flake section for it so that others can avoid the same pain and hassle that I've went through.

 

This!

I am a buyer and seller on the MP (have been for years) and I always state layaway payments are non-refundable. I only had one person ever have to back out of a sale and I don't believe it was an easy decision for her. I could have left flakey feedback but I think the WAY people communicate on the board is important too. If the buyer and seller come to an agreement and have been in communication during the entire transaction flakey feedback need not be left.

Flakey is for those people who drop off the face of the earth and the transaction is left in limbo for months at a time will the seller tries mightily to get in touch with the buyer.

 

I agree with the flake system and non-refundable layaway payments. Someone actually did that to me. Put a signigicant amount of money down on a doll body I was selling, and then when it came time for the next payment due, she said she'd found a cheaper body elsewhere and preferred it, instead.

Had she thrown a fit demanding her money back, even knowing it was a non-refundable payment, I'd have definitely given her flake feedback. As it was, she very politely apologized, told me she understood the deposit would not be returned, and asked that I not leave her negative feedback. Well, I didn't. I wasn't too upset. I mean, hey, I got an extra free hundred bucks out of the deal, so it was her loss, not mine.

I never did sell the body, though, so I gave up trying. heh

 

I don't know exactly when the 'flake' rules went into effect, but I remember trying to sell a couple of dolls on the marketplace a few years ago, putting them on hold several times, having the 'buyers' back out, rinse repeat -- I eventually stopped trying to sell the dolls at all. Fast-forward to a few months ago: I put the same dolls up for sale -- and sold them to people who actually bought them. No flakes involved.